Law in MI...is it universal? If not, is there a similar law for SC?

Started by ShannonS3 • 124 replies • 13439 views

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ShannonS3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25

Posted:

I am seeking an absolute verifiable answer to the following dilemma. Thank you so much in advance!

There is a law: State of Michigan 84th legislature Reg. Session Of 1988. Enrolled Senate Bll No. 688 Under Act No.116 of the Public Acts of 1973. Section 1. Act No. 183 Public Acts of 1943.

Amazingly, I was able to site this law that my day care consultant found in the year 2003 to successfully open my private family day care (less than 6 children) in my HOA neighborhood home. When I tried to reach out to my former consultant, I was told she is retired. Unfortunately, no one else in the state of MI that I spoke to could assist me with such a specific SC law based question.

In essence, the MI law states that a family day care may be operated in one's home in a residential neighborhood even when an HOA prohibits home based businesses (due to the nature of the service provided).

What I've come to learn so far in my quest; South Carolina HOA's aren't willing to make exceptions. Period. However, niether were MI's until I uncovered the law sited above.

To date, every single neighborhood in my county has an HOA in place. It's not a matter of opinion or what the verbage is in each of the HOA's, not one allow home based businesses.

The bottom line is this matter can only be resolved, I've come to determine, by a legal finding.

Does anyone know if there is a law on the books in SC much like the one I've referenced from MI that would allow me to live in an HOA neighborhood and still be permitted to operate my small day care?

Aside from hiring an attorny, where can I find out if any such law exists?

I've spent the past FOUR (10 hour days) days on line, on the phone and asking strangers where I live for assistance (to no avail).

Time is of the essence. Please advise me. Please. I will be forever grateful.

Sincerely,
S.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I am not going to sugar coat this advice. This seems like a passive aggresive way to work with your HOA. It is not like you and your neighbors are not aware of the rule against using your homes as businesses. You just want to find a way around it and put some state law quote in front of them with possible legal costs to follow. What choice do you give your HOA or respect to your neighbors?

If you move into a HOA you do not make yourself above the rules and get yourself a lawyer to do it. That will not win you any friends. Plus the HOA may hire a lawyer to counter yours costing the HOA more money. A Prime example of suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors.

If you want to run a day care find a place out of your HOA. The IRS may be happier with you with that arrangement than using your home in a HOA. I would not be surprised if someone did not report you to the IRS if you did insist on the daycare at your house. Not everyone would be happy to have this business in their neighborhood. Expect some backlash.

Former HOA President

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

There are few to no rules/regulations in SC concerning associations that are not high rise condos. SC Articles of Incorporation for Non Profits (typical HOA Association Corporation) pretty much defer to the HOA's Covenants/Bylaws to be the controlling documents.

That said, most HOA Covenants here do ban/regulate businesses being operated out of a home. Some are tougher then others. My own HOA Covenants specifically refer to child care may not be conducted or carried on, in or upon any lot. Further defines chikld care as a for profit, for 3 or more children which requires the issuance of a license under the SC General Statues and SC Health and Enviroment.

Tough love here but me thinks Mel is right. You are looking for state rules or regulations to work around an association. Try it my HOA and you will get your a$$ nailed to wall in a NY minute based on our covenants, not on SC Rules and Regulations.

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

Well, Shannon, HOAs in CA also cannot prohibit daycare centers no matter what their CC&Rs or other governing documents might say. HOAs can require that the daycare by licensed, insured, including liability insurance.

But I cannot answer the question about SC. Can you go online to look at something like the state's Businesses and Professions Codes? Can you call a licensed daycare center and ask them how they became licensed? There has to be some state regulations somewhere that'll give you a starting point.

We also have some sharp S. Carolinians on this site who may be able to point you in the right direction.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

First, what do your covenants state regarding businesses operated out of your home?

If nothing, then I think the odds are in your favor.

Second, you may want to check out with the Department of Social Services Division of Child Day Care Licensing and Regulatory Services. You may be required to undergo certain licensing requirements and make the appropriate modifications to your property to be in compliance with state rules and regulations.

http://www.state.sc.us/dss/cdclrs/

http://www.state.sc.us/dss/cdclrs/overview.html

I am not familiar with South Carolina laws and so I do not know if they have any detailed HOA statutes (based on a quick search I couldn't find anything) so I would think your answers will lay primarily in your governing documents. If you can find any case law to support your position then great but that may be difficult unless you have the proper resources, such as LexisNexis or Westlaw.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Shannon,

I have no answer but would suggest that you read through the state (and maybe even federal) laws regarding daycare or child care rather than HOA statutes.

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

I agree with Larry, Shannon, and tired to suggest that above. Kevin's sites make sense too. HOA law isn't the place to look and is skimpy in SC anyway as John46 observes.

I hope your "time is of the essence" remark doesn't mean that you're actually doing day care work in your home!!??

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Am I the only one who suspects the OP has opened an illegal child care business in their home and the HOA has caught on? Sorry but I do not support businesses like child care or those that bring additional traffic/safety concerns to an HOA. What if she brings them to the HOA pool? What about parking? The kids run out into traffic? Who's insurance picks this up?

This type of business puts a burden on the HOA and noise distubances. It is one thing to sell Avon but another when it puts lives at stake. I have seen plenty of home daycare get out of control. The regulations are strict and the HOA should not have the additional burden of making sure those regulations are in place. What happens if a disgruntle neighbors calls the authorities? Will it be a personal vendetta to the OP or the HOA atacking them?

Some issues go beyond the surface...

Former HOA President

ShannonS3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25

Posted:

Gosh...I feel as though I should clarify a few points.
I am a licensed family home day care provider who has just moved to SC. This has been my career for 16 wonderful years.
Of course I will apply for a SC day care license as soon as I definitively have an answer to my question;
Does a state law exist in SC that oversedes HOA law in the instance of family child care (typically an exception to the no home busisness rule).
In no way am I seeking anything more than to live in a home where I can continue to work and generate an income.
When I made mention to anything from a legal standpoint, for instance, to hire a lawyer or not, good heavens, that was a what if scenario.
Every single neighborhood here in my county has HOA's...so there's no way around not living in one.
I simply seek verifiable information to plead my case in front of an HOA board.
Truly, I am sucha humble woman with no intentions of causing a ruckus. What I've gathered is that HOA's would prefer not to make exceptions for anyone as they need to present a unified front (again based on what I've been hearing and reading). If this is not the case, and there is a chance I could be granted permission should I actually have the chance to plead my stance, what are your thoughts on this approach? Probable? Likely I will be granted permission? No chance?? I will have letters of reference's from former neighbors and my former HOA granting me personal permission in the past. Would this be sufficent?
Again, I want to do the right thing. But I also feel (to my core) that I shouldn't be banned from earning an income while doing what I feel I was called to do.

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

Shannon, as many have advised here, you need to research SC state law on the topic. Kevin even gave you a couple of sites as starting points. Without a state law to show your Board that supersedes your HOA's CC&Rs, I think your chances are zero.

ShannonS3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25

Posted:

Hello Melissa,

I don't currently have an HOA. I am asking this question before the fact, not after since it's not in my character to be sneaky.
My respect is for everyone...Myself, future neighbors, God and yes, my future HOA board members (smile). I feel pationately that my career is a service to the community and will hopefully be well received. And if not well received, then accepted as I know from 16 years of experience, I've never been a bother to anyone in either my neighborhood nor community (I willhave letters attesting to this). As for making myself above the HOA rules. Not exactly. Just the unjust ones. In this day and age where making a living is becoming more and more difficult and working from home becomes much more feasible on so many different levels, why should I be banned from generating an income from my home? I don't feel tas though I should. However, since feelings have precious little to do with legal matters...and this is a legal matter....I simple seek a way to ensure my livelihood. By the way...I am sure I didn't make my point clearly (sorry)...I do NOT want to sue nor do I wish to be sued. I simply want help finding the a law on the books in SC that will allow me to continue my work. As for the IRS...why would you mention them? Very unfair of you to imply I am not a law abiding person paying my fair share? In fact, that was plain mean spirited and unwarranted. That aside, I genuinely appreciate your feed back and the time you took to share it. Thank you very much.

ShannonS3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25

Posted:

Oh my goodness...the judgement? Would you please give me the benefit of the doubt, please? I am a law abiding citizen who is looking for assistance BEFORE making an offer on a home prior to finding out what rights I have as a South Carolina citizen. My record is clean and I pay my taxes. My husband makes a very good living for us and I simply wish to continue my much loved career choice of 16 years.
Truly...I've exhausted my computer skills by searching the Internet for answers...
When the timing is right, I will once again become a licensed and insured family day care provider in GOOD standing within all rules and regulations of the sate of South Carolina. I've not been here a hot minute and am feeling completely blindsided with the possibility of not being able to work. So please think of things from that point of view for a moment if you could.
As for common area's...no worries...Our home insurance carrier is privy to the required information.
I must say...I dislike being painted with one brush...yes, some issues do go beyond the surface for sure...and it's true that there are providers that don't operate an immaculate and well run family based day care...this is not the case for myself, not in the least.
I mentioned in a different note that I am awaiting two letters from former neighbors who will attest to my character and ability to run my business without interfering on anyone's rights. I am hopeful this will help me should I be required to plead my case.
Does anyone have any other area's to point me in to help me definatively determine if I can start my business here in SC from a home within an HOA??
Thank you all again.
I appreciate all feedback...but strongly dislike being thought of as a liar.
Shannon

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

Look, Shannon, your background, experience and obvious love of your chosen profession all are wonderful. But neither that, nor reference letters, matter to HOA Boards of Director, who are elected by homeowners to enforce the rules and restrictions that are in their governing documents. If a Board makes an exception for you, the board opens itself up to lawsuits from homeowners for not abiding by their restrictions.

UNLESS you find a statute or law in SC that says HOAs may not forbid daycare centers, you will not be able to have one in your home Maybe a reference librarian at a local library can help.

Aren't there towns with neighborhoods and houses in them that aren't in HOAs? Otherwise, it sounds as if you will need to work for wages in a licensed daycare center. And please don't paint me with Melissa's brush. She seems a bit cranky today.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I don't mean to come across as cross but realistic. Rules are rules. It doesn't matter if you are Mother Theresa and run a Christian orphanage from your home. It is still a business and against the rules. This is not to be mean but what you can expect if you want to run this business from your home. It's NOT all "sunshine and puppies". No matter how empassioned you are about your reasons it still comes across a bit like a unwanted relative trying to visit for Christmas. You know your kin but you don't want their RV sitting in your driveway.

Your approach comes across as passive-aggressive. I am going to call you out on it so you can see it. You stated you were concerned about your approach. Well this is your approach as I see it. You recognize it's against the rules but as long as you find a state law somewhere your going to do it anyways. Putting the HOA and all your neighbors in a very awkward situation. No matter how you try to sugar coat it, this is what your doing. Why else be concerned about looking up a law to allow it if you don't plan on using it to get around the existing rule? This would leave a bad taste in my mouth as a board member if you came to us with this approach.

Knowing this, should let you start thinking of a different approach to take with your HOA or other options. Maybe become a Nanny? My mother was a stay at home babysitter. We would have 2 - 3 kids at our home. So it's not like I don't understand your situation. However, today's laws and regulations it's best to have the protections of a business license and insurance. One of our kids did have an accident and the parents almost sued us for it. She fell in our yard and cut herself badly. Another kid had an allergic reaction while eating clover. All normal kid incidents. However, parents are quick to sue and who do you think they will go after? You and the HOA.

In a HOA it is NOT about you. It is about you and your neighbors. Having this type business can be risky and put your neigbors at risk. A serious consideration you need to factor in on your pursuit. Good luck.

Former HOA President

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Shannon

Great way to be welcomed to an HOA like screw your rules I signed and agreed to when I moved in as I am above them.

ShannonS3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25

Posted:

Hello Everyone,

(Melissa)...Passive-aggressive is one way to look at my approach/style...I can see that...
In all honestly, I thought my approach was one of realism...in the sense that I am trying my very best to appease the future HOA and future neighbors while still assertaining information (in advance) needed to "win" the right to work.
That seems such an odd way to phrase it but that's how it feels.

My position; trying my very best to achieve a win-win outcome.
So often I continue to hear how HOA's are unable to make exceptions to anyone for any reason due to a level of liability.
Because of this, I must take the stance that I've already lost the right to work therefor, I must begin from that unfortunate disadvantage.
As for working outside the home...that's not my chosen profession.
Not to mention that I have an estimated $5,000 in supplies invested in materials/supplies.

Allow me to ask this straight out:
No matter how I ask or who I ask, any and all HOA's will deny my request for permission to work from home (even with supportive documentation)?

The comment about putting an HOA in an awkward postion...My view is this: my livelyhood is at risk (the moment we purchase a home) so I am less concerned about how I am being viewed (at that moment) and simply preoccupied with trying to maintain the right to earn an income...because truly that is the long and short of it...mainting the right to work in my chosen field.

There just isn't a neighborhood in the area that isn't part of an HOA...so the option not to purchase a home in one doesn't exist (this is becoming the norm not the exception these days). I would venture to say that may be an arguement that would need to be considered in and of itself (in my defense).

It is overwhelming to think that we've just relocated nearly 1,000 miles from our previous home...only for me to be faced with such a termendous and daunting life issue. That is how I see it...feel it...am living with it over my head...really taking away from the joy and excitement of this whole experience (moving). Everyone already knows...Moving is stressful enough but to through this life altering dilemma into the mix...it's really a lot to take in~!

Many years ago, I actually was a nanny...However, at this juncture in life, it's not really a feasible solution.
Someone else mentioned working in a center...again, not something I am willing to do (private reasons).

It seems to me that there is definately a solution that must exist that would allow me to contunie working from my home....Strangly, and I could be way off here...but I feel that most of you are reluctant to share it for one reason or another...What could I do or what could I say that would implore someone to have mercy on me...I feel so desperate...really defeated at this point.

If I could share pictures of my day care from over the years...show how immaculate it was...that no one would ever guess I had one in my home...either from the outside or the inside...maybe you all would get a better feel for who I am and how well and privately I conduct my business? Probably not...but I have to wonder....there are those who do their respective jobs very well and those whom do not. I've never been sued and I've never had an injured child...(granted, I've been blessed).

I wonder this....I've looked into the licensing law for child care homes on line...and as in MI the same is true in SC... you must be lincensed to watch any number of children...so what if I presented to the board that instead of the allowable SIX children...I would volunteerily agree to watch ONLY THREE children? I would sign a waiver attesting to this...does anyone feel that would help matters? Cutting the number 50%?

I am in awe of the reluctance to allow certain exceptions to the regulations HOA's have. In everyday life, I am all about rules and follow them to the T. This is the only exception I've ever sought out.

The two sites a gentleman pointed out yesterday....LexisNexis and Westlaw are both paid sites...and although I wouldn't normally have an issue paying for something such as this...I hesitate paying for a site that I already know is far above my level of understanding. I've yet to be able to manuever my way fully around even this site (wink)~!

Well...I know this thread is coming to an end...so I will end by saying I am truly at your mercy...I genuinely appreciated hearing your views...the collective knowledge on this matter is impressive....
Should any or all of you be willing to continue assiting me until I have this matter fully resolved, I would be grateful. My intentions are good and I hope that is what continues shines through~!

Sincerely,
Shannon

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Shannon

Where in SC are you talking about?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

The viewpoint I get is "I". It is your income. It your way of life. It is you "offering" to be nice by being pre-emptive. Reality is that in a HOA it "WE" live here and WE have rules. It sometimes is not what I want but what "They" have. "They" have rules. "I" have excuses. Just sayin...

Former HOA President

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Now she goes the poor me. Deprive me of what I like to do, stop me from making a living, I was forced to move, boo hoo. Versus I will sign your documents and then look as fast as I possible can for a law to circumvent what I just signed.

ShannonS3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25

Posted:

John,

York County. However, the area in which we can live is narrowed by the school we chose for our only child. She isn't adapting very well...so moving her school isn't a foreseeable solution.

ShannonS3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25

Posted:

John and Melissa,,

I am not doing a poor me as you stated...
But I am feeling a bit taken aback by how harsh you and Melissa are responding to my plight,

I am not looking to sign an HOA and then go against the rules....
I am looking for a way to be honest, up front and clear concerning my intentions...before signing on.
How is that aspect of my approach so lost on both of you?

And if it seems as though I am coming from a point of I...it's partly due to the fact that this is MOSTLY about me...and secondly, about where I live (my neighbors).
Additonally, in the area in which I am moving from...I took this same approach....the BEFORE approach...and it worked out for everyone.
Not a single neighbor in TEN years was ever bothered....and I never had a single vilolation occurr. I think that speaks HIGHLY to my crediblity.

When one is figting for something that they feel passionate about...it may come across as selfish....I can see that. Yet it's not my intention.
As I stated, I would like a compromise...a win-win.

Why do you two both seem to point out and look for only the negative in all that I express.
It seems as though for some reason, without knowing me, you want to see me fail.
I don't think that;'s the purpose of this board.
Isn't it to convey and share the wealth of knowledge that most of you come to the table with?
To guide, support and direct?

Shannon

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

'google' no hoa south carolina or something similar

http://myrtlebeachhomesandcondosforsale.myrtlebeachrealestatenavigator.com/i/14663/results.php?savedName=Homes_With_No_HOA_Myrtle_Beach&per=25&start=26

NO ONE wants to live next to a day care center

such center should be a highly regulated commercial business

even if you find a house outside of an hoa you had best dot all your Is and cross all your Ts

CODE COMPLIANCE ~ commercial fire standards, etc. ~ good luck with that ~ $$$$$

IRS

SC dep of revenue

licensure

insurance

employee back-up for illnesses, etc.

storm closures

CAVEAT EMPTOR

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

since your previous HOA apparently violated its own CCRs without any authority to do so you now want the next HOA to also violate its deed restrictions

if home businesses are prohibited by the restrictions

THEY ARE PROHIBITED

and NO ONE may grant an exemption

you were merely lucky no one took legal action INDEPENDANTLY as would be their right

the fact that no one 'bitched' for 10 years is immaterial

you do have the option of buying an unoccupied parcel away from the madding crowd and doing what you like

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

With all due respect to the OP and her long history of daycare NONE of that matters. Letters from past neighbors, pictures, promises mean nothing.

We too like most properties prohibit a business from being operated out of a private home. The reasons should be obvious. But like many people the OP here now thinks she should be granted "special" permission because she is offering a service. Well the heard truth is that is HER opinion and the HOA and the Board that manages that property is not required to sahre that view.

And as I think John has mentioned not a real good way to start a relationship with an HOA or the Board by lets say shoiving your legal documents down the throats and forcing you opinions and needs upon them when they violate the property's documents.

The OP it seems does not yet own a property so if fact this would require the HOA to grant some special waiver to her as a non-owner prior to her owning. That is not a road I would wish to go down!

Abd what business just might be suggested next? And how in the world would the Board then enforce they rules after this daycare facility opened with the Board's blessings?

It is unfortunate when people limit their views to those that serve THEIR needs and desires with no regard to how this might affect others.
Not difficult to see the complications this issue might bring to an HOA, the Board and the neighbors.

The rules can apply to everyone else just not me! And when they do apply to me I will find a legal entity that can force you to do what serves me rather than the other residents of the property.

We recently had a tenant decide it was HER calling to open a doggy day care center in her rental property here. And yes when walking the dogs they were allowed to crap all day and this new business owner failed to clean up after ANY of her clients. Just a poor woman stuck in the world of this poor economy trying to make a buck with total disregard for the property or her neighbors. And when notificaion quickly arrived shutting down her new enterprise what an atttiude. How dare they.

My opinion HOAs or for that matter the world is not required to act as you would have them. Nor are they required to permit behavior prohibited for others because in your mind it SHOULD be acceptable.

Try for at least a moment to see the other side of the coin. And if you cannot then I would suggest this is YOUR issue not the HOA's

Imposing your views of right and wrong, good or bad on others is not a quality I admire. And as a Board member my answer would be NO.

And I for one would not assist any effort to forcefeed another property to allow behavior prohibited in their own documents.

I just have to wonder JOHN is the entire state of SC HOAed up? Are there no free standing single family homes in the entire state or is it the HOAs offer a more affrodable option if not for those gosh darn rules prohibiting people from bringing 6 kids to their house each day.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

We are pointing out the fact that even with the best intentions possible it is still against the rules and possibly the law. It's like you may be the best race car driver in the world but you don't open a shop in the middle of a street.

This response your getting from me and John is most likely the response you will get from a HOA. If you can't get around this reaction and facts, then your stance isn't the strongest. We aren't hiding anything from you on ways around this issue. We are offering the straight truth and reality of what your asking. You are asking to make an exception to rules just because you think you deserve it. Others think the same thing. That is why there are rules. It equals things out.

Former HOA President

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Shannon

The bottom line is we bought in associations under a set of Covenants/Bylaws. We must have liked/wanted them or we would not have bought where we did. So our reaction is you did not have to buy here so if you do not like the way we do things then this is the land of the free. Feel free to move on down the road.

What is the sense of documents/rules/regulations if people do not follow them. While you might personally not be the issue (six screaming kids in tghe yard might be for me) it is a crack in the dam of letting a business operate in the neighborhood. Which one will be next? I can only imagine and I can hear the same arguements:

Well my private dancing is only done for one person at a time so you will not even know they are here.

Well in my hairdressing business I never have more then two customers at a time.

Well I only strip/junk one car at a time so you will not even notice it.

A few years back there was a Dominatrix? operating a business in her "converted" basement in a $million$ home in an HOA. The police got wind and busted her. No one knew a thing. Everybody liked her. She was a good neighbor......LOL

Yada...yada...yada...

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

BTW what about the parents point of view of the kids you would be taking care of? Did you bother to think about your clients? How comfortable would they be in this situation? It is kind of a known rule even if you lived outside of a HOA, that such businesses are typically not allowed in HOA's. Most of your clients would most likely be living in one if what you say that most of the county has them. Your business may come across a bit "shady" to some people. I know in our area that many of them get shut down and even the professional ones are as well. Not alot of happy parents on the news at night when they shut down a daycare overnight.

My suggestion is just NOT to use your home as the daycare. Go to someone else's house to babysit. I am sure there are homes with multiple children that could use a good babysitter at their home. A friend of mine has triplets and uses a babysitter at his home all the time. I just wouldn't have them bring kids to my house considering the risks, germs, and issues.

Former HOA President

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

to simplify:

residential z residence

commercial z business

if you are charging for day-care you ARE a business

good luck finding an attorney-at-law willing to accept this case on a 'contingency fee' basis ~ it will never happen

however

you WILL find one willing to accept for an hourly rate

but

WHEN you lose, YOU will pay ALL the attorney's fees for both sides

again: CAVEAT EMPTOR

ShannonS3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25

Posted:

RANDOM ACTS OF KINDESS......

Jon,

And everyone....

Both sides of this topic are very apparent to me.
It's not lost on me that I am asking for what is normally frowned upon.
Somehow, though...no one is asking when it became a neighbors choice or the choice of an HOA to determine what most perceive as their personal rights (to earn a living).
There are definately a lot of good that HOA's bring to a community/neighborhood. I don't deny that.
What I do take personal issue with is being limited as to how I choose to earn an income.

HOA's wield a lot of power, and in my opinion, too much power at times. If it were applicable, I would certainly look to live outside of an HOA to avoid such a backlash of unhappy responses. However, as shared previously, that's an option we have.

Many on this board still seem so angry towards me for my pursuit. And Jon, you in particular, that in the past I was granted permission to work from my home....you feel that I should never have been given the "go ahead"...not then, and certainly, not now.

In life, compromising goes a long ways.
I shared that I am very open to compromise in this situation.

You and others have mentioned me shoving a legal document down the throats of the HOA....well....in some regard, isn't that what's happening to me? I must live in an HOA...it's less a choice than it is by default. Either way though, I thought I would be given the benefit of the doubt. Does that ever happen any more?

My feeling is; I strongly beleive that there is a peaceful way to resolve this matter...that somehow everything is going to work out just fine...and yes, in my favor.
My quest is steadfast. I remain fervent in my attempt to live peacefully while earning an income.

My mission is to live, laugh and love.
Peace not war.

These are words on paper...I am doing my best to express myself authentically and with some sense of decorum.
I am not here to have an endless array of road blocks put in my path...making them known is helpful...throwing them in my face at every turn is unnecessary and unhelpful.

Please, if anyone can reveal a path for me to follow that will lead me from this dark place...not being able to work in the forseeable future....again, as corny as it may sound, I would be grateful. And I promise (promises do count...wink) to pass on the act of kindness.

Peace~
Shannon

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Never confuse an act of stupidity as an act of kindness... Why everyone wants to have a daycare next to them just because the person doing it is nice...

Former HOA President

ShannonS3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25

Posted:

"Your life is worth fighting for. Dig your heels in and say, “I am in it to win. I know God didn’t bring me this far to leave me here.”
-Joel Osteen

This quote just posted on my FB page...I felt it was fiting...and what I've been trying (in vain) to convey.
I am not fighting to hurt anyone...I am "fighting" against a policy I simply don't fully believe in.

Melissa: Kindness isn't stupid. Asking for grace, mercy, help....I find no shame in that. It seems as though you are saying that anyone who helps me is stupid? I hope that's not the case ;)

Shannon

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Shannon

Why did you buy into an HOA knowing what you wanted to do was against the Covenants?

ShannonS3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25

Posted:

John,

If you mean why did we in the past....because we were totally unaware that I wouldn't be allowed to continue to operate my licensed day care...we moved to a different town but within the same county (so you can see where the reason for the confussion).

Thankfully, my licensing consultant brought the HOA matter to our attention...which gave us the time we needed to be sure we could meet on common ground. She was a God send for sure!!

Shannon

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Shannon

So you do not presently live in an HOA in SC?

York County SC is a bit of rural county, especially west of I77. I would suggest you can easily find a non-HOA home to purchase and do as you jolly well wish.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

The logic here is flawed. It is like a rapist wearing a condom when he rapes you and then saying I protected you did I not?

It sounds like you had the same issue at your current HOA or they would not have sent you the licence person. It was not God it was your HOA sending you a message they did not want your business there. You just responded by quietly threatening them with your mandane law you had a lawyer find.

I am sure if I asked your neighbors they would say the reason you have the business is that you threatened to sue them if they did not allow it. May not be the way you stated it but quoting a law indicates you plan to if provoked.

Former HOA President

ShannonS3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25

Posted:

As stated previously...I was already a licensed child care provider prior to moving into the HOA neighborhood.
And as such, I already was assigned a licensing consultant.

Now...please...Melissa & John...hear me when I say...back off with your filth...both of you.
I won't stand for it.

You both keep making the oddest references to ILLEGAL and unethical behaviors that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
And now, making refernce to a rapist!
Mellisa and John...I suggest you regroup and think about why you are turning an innocent quest for answers so NASTY!!

Thank you~
Shannon

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Thank you for playing victim. Enjoyed the show... Playbills will be available out front.... The reviews are in and you acting innoncent stole the show as long as it was a comedy and not the tragedy your making it to be...

Former HOA President

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

Shannon: Go to a library and get help searching for state or even federal laws that forbid HOAs to ban daycare centers in SC. As I said previously, we may NOT ban them in Calif. even if our CC&Rs prohibit them. You say that Mich. also permits such centers. No one here is going to do that research for you. If your local, state or federal gov. gives you that right, subject to licenses, etc., their authority trumps any individual HOA. Otherwise, as everyone has clearly stated, the Boards of Directors of HOAs in your small area will not permit it. No one is hiding anything from you.

Others: I wouldn't want to live next door to a daycare business either. Our HOA is 98% adults and we like it that way. But that is not Shannon's question. I have to say that some of you are being needlessly harsh towards someone who's seeking advice. I lived for three years in Charlotte NC ca. 1990 and the local folks there were exceedingly warm, helpful and kind to us newcomers from the left coast. Though we aren't vegetarians, one sweet lady seriously wondered if we were having a tofu turkey for Thanksgiving. But she wasn't being "ugly." Many became our friends. I'm not seeing much southern hospitality here.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Shannon:

With all due respect you seem to have quite an abiliy not to hear what others are saying.

And IMO what took place in Michigan is NOT universal because you now need it to be. John in fact lives in South Caroline and I would guess his opinions would be one I would listen to carefully. If the governing documents of the HOA do no allow a business to operate out of a residence, other than you needing it to be different, on what grounds do you expect people to grant you a waiver?

It appears to me your logic follows only what you see as necessary and considers no one else or other options. My guess in York County there would be perhaps a handful of single family free standing homes outside any HOA restrictions. But NO you can't have that. I am sure in the whole state of SC you might find more than a dozen single family homes. But NO you are limited because of your daughter's school choices. So rather than YOU changing your decisions or behavior now some HOA, ANY HOA, you decide to move into needs to accomodate YOU. Because as you suggest "you have determined you have a right to earn a living" even if it violates the governing documents of the property you bought into. And for YOU that makes perfect sense. Let everyone else adjust to YOUR "plight". Not the "plight" of the HOA but lets all have a "win-win". I can see clearly how you WIN. But please explain how the HOA and those serving and those living on the property get THEIR "win".

The HOA would be violating their own documents. The Board would be setting precedent making it difficult if not impossible to enforce this particular rule and perhaps ANY others. Your neighbors would be subjected to the comings and goings of perhaps 6 kids twice per day? Noise, congestion, traffic just how would YOUR business operation affect the residents?

How about liability? If one of the kids was injured or harmed while on the property YOUR insurance would not prevent the HOA from perhaps being seen as liable.

My guess the advice you have been offered and the realities you seem willing to discard will continue to serve as barriers to your opening a day-care business in most South Caroline HOAs. And the fact that despite the reality most if not all hold the rule you can not operate a business out of your home that matters little to you.

Your view of this is all to clear. The only thing that matters to you is what YOU want and need. Let everyone else adjust THEIR behavior then to suit you.

So do whatever it is you determine to be necessary and see how that works out for you.

By the way, in Dr. Phil's newest book he suggests "giving people the benefit of the doubt" is outdated and no longer helpful in surviving in today's modern world. Some peple might take advantage of that to serve only their interests.

ShannonS3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25

Posted:

Hi Again Jon,

I've taken the time to read through some posts on this site as well as others related to HOA matters/topics.
And for the most part...It's been very interesting to feel the natural ebb and flow of many of these conversations.
Most of which have seemingly been very positive/helpful (very reassuring).

And absolutely: Going to the local library is where I'll be headed next week...Thanks Carol!

Interestingly enough, Jon, I know the book you make reference to. And although I am mostly in agreement with what Dr. Phil says actually...I also know he says...Never substitute your own common sense for that of another...(Family First by Dr. Phil). I didn't put that in quotes since I don't have the book in hand (it's in MI).

As for the remark you made whether or not the MI law was universal...That was my INITIAL and legitiment question....yet you found a way to mock/ridicule it. Kudo's Jon.

And as for the question I posed very early on...What grounds would I have to ask an HOA for a waiver...well that's yet to be determined.
As I've not given up my quest for an answer (no sir).
And Mellisa, I realize that no one is going to hand me the answer I seek on a silver platter. Yet, I must admit, I was unprepared for such hostile responses.

Yes...I am here to gather opinions and advice (legal and otherwise)...to gain a new perspective, insight into how to effectively state my case before an HOA board should the need arise. Hearing all sides is surely what I expected...and although you may not feel I am doing so, I am taking it all in...(I promise...) ;)

As many of you can surely tell by now...This matter has become all consuming...it has become my every waking thought since finding out my livlihood was in jeopardy...so yes, you bet...I find myself a bit off center. Please forgive me if I come across as overly sensitive, as I admit, I am feeling very emotional over the seemingly insurmountable obstacles standing in the way of proceeding with "life as I knew it".

It's not necessarily selfish to be consumed with trying to make right what one perceives as an afront to one's personal life choices.
And again, right or wrong, that is my perspective which in turn makes it my reality.

Continuing to ask why I plan to live within the confines of an HOA is really a moot point.
For a gamete of reasons really...none of which have any bearing on the matter at hand...

An ENORMOUS portion of the population...some by choice, some by circumstance, live within HOA's.
I am not alone when I say there are few viable alternatives to doing so.

My intent is to speak up for what I feel is right.
It is my position to continue my work with children and their families within the confines of my home.
Further, and perhaps most importantly...to cause little to no disturbance to my neighbors.
To live in harmony and peace...

I want to be the change I wish to see in the world.
And by this I mean to live by the motto....Do no harm.

Thank you once again for this forum to speak and to share and to be given the chance to hear other's opinions and thoughts as well.

Shannon

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/23/2013 5:16 AM
You recognize it's against the rules but as long as you find a state law somewhere your going to do it anyways... Why else be concerned about looking up a law to allow it if you don't plan on using it to get around the existing rule? .

Finding a law that allows you to do something contrary to the covenants I'd not trying to get around existing rules. It is following the rules. A HOA cannot make rules when the law says otherwise and trying to force people to follow illegal rules is just that - illegal. It sounds as if the OP is doing their homework before choosing a home. They may have a hard time finding the information they are looking for but in the end they are just trying to find out the rules of both the HOA and the state.

For example, Florida has some rules like HOAs cannot ban solar devices(like clotheslines or solar panels) or xeriscaping. Many HOA documents had covenants banning such things. Mine did. If I wanted to hang a clothesline but my HOA had a "rule" saying I couldn't, the state law invalidates that "rule.". I'm not trying to get around an existing rule. I'm following them. It is not right to have one set of rules for homeowners and another set for HOAs.

My advice if you cannot find a state law or case law seek out a HOA with no business-from-home covenants. Then the HOA won't matter in your making a living.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

I REPEAT

Shannon

So you do not presently live in an HOA in SC?

York County SC is a bit of rural county, especially west of I77. I would suggest you can easily find a non-HOA home to purchase and do as you jolly well wish.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Shannon, as a non-member of an HOA you have no right to ask the Board to waive a Covenant and they have NO RIGHT to do so, member or not. Even if they collectively decided to turn a blind eye to it, which is very doubtful, a future Board would not be obligated by it and could enforce. In addition even if the Board turned a blind eye, any of your fellow future homeowners could take you to court to enforce what the Board failed to. You need to, as others have suggested, either buy in a non-HOA and hope you can get a zoning waiver or go to work at a licensed daycare to ply your trade.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Glen said:

In addition even if the Board turned a blind eye, any of your fellow future homeowners could take you to court to enforce what the Board failed to.

Good point

It could be several fellow homeowners that pool their resources (money) to do so. This is the approach I would take.

It ain't over til it's over.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

What would then stop a "Shade Tree" mechanic from taking up shop in your HOA if a Day care can move in?

For me the original Michigan law would not have been enough to have allowed the daycare to have existed in the first place. I would have forced it to go to court. In this type of case where it would effect ALL members of the HOA it would have been worth going the court route. I don't think a law quote is always in context of the law intent. Especially if it did not come from a lawyer. I would expect a new HOA not to fall for the "Bannana in the tailpipe" and question this with legal council.

Yes, an individual owner could indeed sue the daycare owner. Even if the HOA bent the rules and allowed the daycare to operate. The lawsuit could involve the inability to sale their home. If that owner puts their house up for sale and any potential buyer decides to NOT purchase the home due to a day care existing, that is enough for a lawsuit.

Another aspect of this are:

1. Parking? Who will pay the tickets if the HOA has no parking zones? The HOA can enforce parking regulations and any clients would have to obey those rules. Expect HOA tickets or subject to towing.

2. Liability if there is a pool. If a HOA has a pool, would these children be allowed to use it without signing a release? Would they need to be charged if the HOA charges for visitor pool use?

3. Insurance. What if a kid runs out in the road and gets hit by a car? We had a child who learned to unlock the doors. She was 2 years old. Her parents found her several houses down one day after she unlocked the door and ran out. Does this not make the HOA possible subject to a lawsuit? Do you not need to provide a copy of your license and insurance to the HOA?

4. Taxes. Someone may just report you to the IRS for using your home as a business.

Overall, it is NOT a good idea for a person to set up "shop" in a HOA no matter how much you want to sugar coat it and call it God's blessings. You put yourself at the risk of harrassment, tickets, lawsuits, and just not very happy neighbors.

Former HOA President

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Place a check mark by all that apply, and if the total equals five or more, you could have a narcissist in your midst!

1. A grandiose sense of self-importance where the individual exaggerates achievements and talents and expects to be recognized as superior without relevant accomplishments. ( )

2. A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or ideal love. ( )

3. A belief that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions. ( )

4. A need for excessive admiration. ( )

5. A sense of entitlement and unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations. ( )

6. Interpersonally exploitative and takes advantage of others to meet his or her own end. ( )

7. A lack of empathy and unwillingness to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others. ( )

8. Envy of others or a belief that others are envious of him or her. ( )

9. A demonstration of arrogant behaviors or attitudes. ( )

Source: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition-Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR)

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

....I am asking for what is normally frowned upon.

NO NO NO

not 'frowned upon'

forbidden by signed contract

you WILL sign the contract by the act of signing the deed

hence the term; 'deed restrictions'

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

... I am asking for what is normally frowned upon.

NO NO NO NO

PROHIBITED by contractual arrangement which YOU will sign upon transfer of the deed.

This is exactly why they are called deed restrictions and covenants.

This is why they are public records.

This is why you must sign on and for the deed.

If you don't like the contract, feel free to purchase elsewhere.

Very few (if any) people want a business 'next door', hence commercial and residential zoning ..... please stop beating this dead horse .... open your business in a commercial zone or get a job working for someone else who IS compliant with the rules.

I, personally, would take you to court in a heartbeat if you opened up next to my home in violation of OUR MUTUAL CONTRACT.

Have a wonderful and blessed day.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Shannon,

I'm going to go back to your original question:

"Does anyone know if there is a law on the books in SC much like the one I've referenced from MI that would allow me to live in an HOA neighborhood and still be permitted to operate my small day care? "

I am not an attorney and I do not work within the legal profession. I am offering advice based on information within your postings, personal experience, any research done and, hopefully, common sense.

SC child care laws are covered under TITLE 63. SOUTH CAROLINA CHILDREN'S CODE.

I did not see anything in that statute that would be similar to the MI statute you cited. However, I may have missed it.

Hope this helps.

Tim

ShannonS3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25

Posted:

Hello Tim,

Oh my...Yes! Any help at this point is "helpful" (smile)!
I will investigate this...
I've done very little else since learning what obstacles lay before me in this matter.
Something that's truly been on my mind is this: I pay into a mutual fund every year...I must earn a certain amount of money in order to do so...and if I don't earn X amount then I cannot...this is money for my retirement.
Essentially, my not being able to work not only affects me "currently" it will also have long term consequences that I only just thought of at around 2:30 am this morning. The word Unbelievable keeps swirling through my mind...I just cannot sleep!

Another question:
Since I am not yet in an HOA neighborhood...how do I go about legal advice (should it come to that) without knowing where I will reside?

And another question:
Say we have a house built in a neighborhood....and I am given the GREEN light to work from my home...from what I THINK I understand...at any time even after being told yes the right to work from home can be recinded? And if so, how is that legal/fair?

Please continue to brain storm for me/with me! ;)
My vehichle is being serviced this week so I doubt I'll be able to scoot over to the library...in the meantime they opened 1 minute ago...so I will call in 5 minutes.

I'll be home ALL day...so any additional thoughts...direction for me to head in would be a huge help!!

Thank you everyone...so much!!

Shannon

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