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LarryS16 (Tennessee)
Posts: 41
Posted:
I have a lot in a subdivision that has approximately 30 lots. Most of the lots were sold in 2007 for $250,000 to $350,000 to out-of-state buyers who intended to flip the lots, but as the economy turned bad, they simply stopped making payments and walked aware from their 3-year ARM loans, and the lenders foreclosed on approximately half of the lots, and we are concerned that if the developer runs into financial problems he might sell the common property, which is all still titled to his company, as it was never transferred to the HOA, which was dissolved in 2010.

The lot owners have been paying the taxes, insurance and maintenance costs for the common properties, which includes a clubhouse and pool, with the belief that the common areas were owned by the HOA. Can the developer sell the common property and leave us with no clubhouse, pool or well for water?
LarryS16 (Tennessee)
Posts: 41
Posted:
I also meant to include that there is nothing in the covenants that specifies when the HOA gains title to the common property.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Those are amenities of the HOA and they won't go no where. He can sell the empty lots which the HOA does not own.

Former HOA President
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
If the developer is the 'super majority' member of the HOA the common elements can be sold (via vote of the members), BUT, the money from the sale would belong to the HOA not the developer per se.

If the HOA decides to distribute the funds to the membership each member would get their proportional share.

eg.
developer owns 66% of all lots (sold or unsold) he/she would get 66% of the sale $$
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
re-read your OP

ATTORNEY REQUIRED
LarryS16 (Tennessee)
Posts: 41
Posted:
The HOA was dissolved in 2010 because the developer didn't file the annual reports. Officially, there were never any meetings and no officers were elected. The subdivision appears to be under declarant control, and none of the common property was ever transferred to the HOA. The title to all the common property is still held by the developer's corporation. He probably owns 10 of the 30 lots. Does it make a difference that he hasn't transferred ownership to the HOA?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I still think your confused on where a HOA comes from and what it is. A HOA does stand for "HomeOwners Association". However, they are first formed by the Developer. It is a SALES TOOL for the developer to get people to purchase into their development. It sells people on the idea that the community will be restricted and rules enforced to keep the place looking good.

So when the Developer is in ownership of the HOA, they are in charge. Most even have their own voting rights separate from the homowners in a different class. That keeps them in power until that day they decide to turn over to the homeowners to run within themselves. Which could be a long time or whatever is written in the rules at what percentage point.

Now a Developer will put in amenities like pools, clubhouses, tennis courts, or other private roads. The money they collect in assessments from the owners go to pay for these things. The checks are written to the developer or in the HOA name. Since HOA's are non-profit whatever money the Developer collects gets spent into the maintenance of these items. Later when it is turned over to the owners, this will be what the owners will pay assessments for to maintain plus insurance. A HOA is ONLY funded by it's owner's FOR it's owners. So what you and the other owners kick in right now is funneling through the Developer for those amenities.

Those amenities are owned by the HOA in essence but the lots the developer has are NOT. The amenities are on common property and are considered a common shared asset of the HOA. The empty lots for sale are NOT common property yet and are for the Developer to sale and make profit on. They are his and NOT the HOA's. So the clubhouse/pool what have you should always be the HOA's and your dues maintain it. The empty lots your HOA's money does NOT maintain nor does it contribute to those. That is all the developers.

Former HOA President
LarryS16 (Tennessee)
Posts: 41
Posted:
The developer has never transferred the common property to the HOA. The same corporation (developer) that owns the lots and land that will be developed and sold in the future also owns the clubhouse and other common areas. The HOA was dissolved, so it does not exist or have members that can own anything. In theory the developer is the HOA, but legally where does that leave the property owners like me? In reality we don't have memberships in the HOA, so in my mind we don't have ownership in the common property. Can we as property owners be held liable if someone is injured on the common property? From what I understand, only the developer's corporation is named as an insured on the insurance policy, which is fine as long as the property owners can't be held liable for accidents occurring on the "common" property.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Look at the plats and see if these common areas are dedicated for such use by the association and/or its members. If so, it really does not matter who actually holds title as the dedications create a permanent easement for their use.
LarryS16 (Tennessee)
Posts: 41
Posted:
The plat does show that the lots and clubhouse are common property, which leads me to my next issue. Since the property is under declarant control, and the HOA is legally dissolved/inactive, can the property owners be held liable for injuries arising out of use of the common property?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryS16 on 03/21/2013 3:13 PM
The plat does show that the lots and clubhouse are common property, which leads me to my next issue. Since the property is under declarant control, and the HOA is legally dissolved/inactive, can the property owners be held liable for injuries arising out of use of the common property?

Larry

On one hand are you saying you want to be sure some stuff is common property (owned/shared by all ownwers) yet on the other hand are you saying you do not want the responsibilty for such stuff?

Is this a have and eat your cake situation?

With command, comes responsibility.

LarryS16 (Tennessee)
Posts: 41
Posted:
I don't believe I said either. I'll be glad to accept responsibility for the common areas as long as its titled to the HOA and the HOA is a named insured on the general liability policy. As it stands, the developer says there is an HOA and there is common property, but he says he is the HOA and all the common property is titled to his corporation.

The property owners are paying for the insurance, taxes and maintenance for the common property but we have no real memberships in an HOA and no ownership in the common properties. Neither the HOA nor property owners, with the exception of the developer, are named insureds on the insurance policy, so it seems more like the developer has an "eat your cake situation." He doesn't want to transfer the ownership of the common properties to an HOA, but he bills the property owners for all the expenses related to the common property and buys an insurance policy that only covers himself. I don't want to be left in limbo when a claim occurs on the common property and the attorneys sue all the property owners rather than just the developer who actually owns the property and has the insurance coverage.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Larry, get your neighbors together to pony up a little cash, and hire an attorney, versed in real estate and contract law. This is not the time for self help. Chances are he can't sell the amenities unless the HOA is dissolved, which from your description I doubt has happened. More than likely the corporation which administers the HOA has been declared inactive / dissolved by the state for not filing something or paying an annual fee. The deed restrictions which require an HOA probably still exist. Especially since you are still paying fees.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
ditto
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Sound of my head bouncing off Brick wall - THUD!

Insurance would cover any incidents that need covering. Whoever has that policy which sounds like the Developer would cover it. Which he is paying from the dues money you as HOA members are paying for. He's just in control and owns it and not you as individual owners. Money still goes to pay for the common elements.

What do you have against this developer anyways? Seriously it just sounds like you don't like the developer and come up with a bunch of reasons/questions because of it. The fact is your a HOA that is owned and operated by the Developer. That is your situation until the developer decides to turn it over to just you homeowners. Not that complicated...

Former HOA President
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 03/21/2013 6:11 PM
Larry, get your neighbors together to pony up a little cash, and hire an attorney, versed in real estate and contract law. This is not the time for self help. Chances are he can't sell the amenities unless the HOA is dissolved, which from your description I doubt has happened. More than likely the corporation which administers the HOA has been declared inactive / dissolved by the state for not filing something or paying an annual fee. The deed restrictions which require an HOA probably still exist. Especially since you are still paying fees.

In case you missed this part of Glen's advice, hire an attorney. This is one of the worst messes I have ever heard of and your choices are walk away and take the loss or get some professional help.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
With Larry13 and JohnB26, get thee an attorney! Time's a wastin'!!
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 03/21/2013 6:11 PM
Larry, get your neighbors together to pony up a little cash, and hire an attorney, versed in real estate and contract law. This is not the time for self help. Chances are he can't sell the amenities unless the HOA is dissolved, which from your description I doubt has happened. More than likely the corporation which administers the HOA has been declared inactive / dissolved by the state for not filing something or paying an annual fee. The deed restrictions which require an HOA probably still exist. Especially since you are still paying fees.

This is sound advice....do it ASAP.
LarryS16 (Tennessee)
Posts: 41
Posted:
I don't have anything against the developer personally, but he won't answer any of our questions. Since the HOA has been dissolved, I'm not sure that we will have corporate indemnification, and if the insurance policy only lists the developer as the named insured, then there's no guarantee that we will have coverage under the general liability policy. In theory the general liability policy might respond, but if there were a claim that involved multi-million dollar damages, I wouldn't want to count on theory to pay my legal bills. I'm more accustomed to running businesses, not HOAs, and I can tell you that the two have nothing in common.
LarryS16 (Tennessee)
Posts: 41
Posted:
Thanks to those of you who recommended the attorney, and for the helpful insight. We have an initial commitment of $60,000 for legal fees, so we'll see where that gets us.
LarryS16 (Tennessee)
Posts: 41
Posted:
Oh, and an attorney is drafting an opinion letter this weekend. Thanks again!
MarkG1 (Georgia)
Posts: 2
Posted:
What was the outcome of your situation? I'm in almost the exact same situation. My problem is slightly worse though because the taxes on common area have gone unpaid and the deed for it is going up for a tax sale!
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkG1 on 11/01/2013 1:22 PM

My problem is slightly worse though because the taxes on common area have gone unpaid and the deed for it is going up for a tax sale!

I am not so sure that it is such a bad situation.

If the common areas were dedicated as such, no matter who owns it they cannot do anything with the property that prevents that use. And they would owe taxes on a parcel they cannot use. Under those circumstances, who would buy it? This may be the very reason your developer stopped paying taxes on the property.

If the property is going up for sale because of unpaid taxes, why is your association not buying the property at the tax sale? It's doubtful that anyone else will bid on it and your association would get a clear title to the property. If that happens, your association will be responsible for future taxes.

Does anyone know why the developer did not deed the common areas over to your association before letting the taxman come knocking?

SusanM22 (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:
"If the property is going up for sale because of unpaid taxes, why is your association not buying the property at the tax sale? It's doubtful that anyone else will bid on it and your association would get a clear title to the property. If that happens, your association will be responsible for future taxes. "

As far as I know, tax deed auctions sales are governed by state laws. I know nothing about Georgia's tax deed sales, however, I can offer Florida as an example. In FL you do NOT automatically get what is commonly known as "clear title." In Florida, after the sale you have to file what is called a "quiet title claim" with the county court in the county where the property is located. Individuals can file quiet title themselves, but it is recommended by many to use a lawyer.

SusanM22 (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:
Something I left out about the GA question and the possibility of the HOA bidding for the common property land or lot at a tax deed sale. The way is handled in Florida, is for the board at a duly called boad meeting to pass a resolution officially incorporating the piece of land or lot(s) to the HOA. Once Minutes are approved an officer of the HOA (or manager if professionally managed) can take this Minutes as evidence to the county Court house and register the parcel under the HOA's name. In Florida, the HOA will no longer have to pay county property taxes for the vacant parcel/land because it is not considered "developed."
MarkG1 (Georgia)
Posts: 2
Posted:
Thanks to everyone for the responses!

LarryB13 - "Does anyone know why the developer did not deed the common areas over to your association before letting the taxman come knocking?"

Larry, my guess is it's because the market crashed, and the developer was foreclosed on before it progressed to the time a normal transfer would take place. Georgia records show the developer's business was dissolved, but they still hold deed to the common area. The bank that foreclosed on the business sold the remaining empty plots to an investor. The bank also filed an amendment to the covenants to be named as the declarant.

SusanM22, our HOA was created by the developer around the time the first few units were sold in '07. The original owners have since left. The annual state fees haven't been paid. Nobody has stepped up to even discuss HOA.

Here is my real concern:
16 of the 32 plots were build out and sold. This takes up half of the road front property. The other half is empty. A new COMMERCIAL realty sign was put up on the property recently. I visited the company website and called the number to determine their intentions, but I saw no information on the property and wasn't able to reach anyone via phone.
My fear is the company that owns the empty plots is looking to pick up the "common area" and sell that empty land for commercial development. But they can't do that because of the covenants right? The covenants define common area as "All real and personal property which the Association owns...".
Well the association doesn't own it, a defunct business who has let the taxes go unpaid does. Seems to me like our "common area" is not really "common area" yet.

To make things simple, I plan to go to the tax sale and purchase the tax deed to the property to protect it.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Mark,

You will need to do some research as there is more than one way to create deed restrictions.

Most developments begin by recording a plat showing the location of lots, roads, and other features. The plat may also include the dedication of easements. Then a declaration is recorded that will reference the recorded plat. From that point forward, all the lots on the plat are subject to whatever terms and conditions are specified in the declaration.

Worst case would be where no plat is recorded and the developer records deed restrictions as an addendum to the deed of each lot as it is sold. This is bad because it is possible that each lot has different restrictions and there are no restrictions at all on unsold lots.

Start by reading your own deed. If it says something like "subject to the restrictions recorded at ..." then locate that document and see if it makes reference to a recorded plat. If so, those deed restrictions should apply to the vacant lots you described.

You also need to read your deed restrictions to see how they may be amended. Normally it takes a majority or more of the property owners to amend. Even though the declarant may have given himself extraordinary voting rights, that will not apply to amendments. One catch is that developers often do not record deeds until they sell a lot. If the developer sold only 16 of 32 lots and there are no deeds recorded for the unsold lots, my personal opinion is that those 16 owners represent 100% of the property owners and may amend the declaration at will. I would, however, consult with an attorney before going down that road.
DougA2 (Iowa)
Posts: 2
Posted:
We were looking at a 55+ community in Florida where we could buy a retirement home. This is a very large community with around 5,000 homes. WE found out that there is a lawsuit against the builder for trying to sell common assets back to the HOA. The HOA board said that they would buy the common property for 3 times the current assessed value and fund the purchase through a CDD. Per the initial guidelines the HOA is suppose to take over the common Assets at 90% of lots being sold but they are currently at 75%. When the builder gets to to 90% are the assets just handed over or does the HOA have to buy them? Also what assets are considered to be part of the builders transfer? (golf courses, pools, community centers, sales centers) What assets would not be transfered?
CjC
Posts: 210
Posted:
Doug-

Pls start a new thread for this question. The documents should explain how the hand over of amenities will take place.
HowardK
Posts: 6
Posted:
How did it all work out for you?

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