HOA member's right to see service contract

Started by RalphR3 • 19 replies • 2135 views

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RalphR3 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

I am an ex-board member who was responsible for snow removal last winter season. The current board entered into a new contract with the previous contractor and our recent blizzard cost $100k more than the previous contract would have cost us. This contractor screwed us last year by not giving the association a $15k refund for lack of snow. The board lied to the whole community and said that they received the refund and it was deposited into the general fund. Later, it was disclosed that they never did receive the $15k from this contractor and then went ahead and gave this person a new contract that went from $5,500 per inch over 14" to the new contract at $9,000 per inch over 14". We recived 31" and this one snowfall cost approx. $165k. I requested to see the new contract after getting the special assessment notice to each member, but also hearing of other negative terms and conditions included in the new contract. The Board of Directors refused my request to see the new contract. Do they have the right to refuse me? Thank You........

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,060

Posted:

I'm have not looked at NY laws in a long time. Therefore, I'll defer to Jon who lives in NY.

Are you in a COA (condominium) or an HOA?

RalphR3 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

Tim, we are an over 55 HOA. Your comments are always welcome. My opinion of Jon from NY is very negative based upon past comments.

Thank You...........(I actually think Jon is an idiot!)

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Is it going to matter now as the season is about over with? Plus this year was an higher year rate of snow. I believe it was in record snowfall amounts this year in many areas. (Not ours as we barely got an inch). What I would do instead is encourage your board to have a policy in place that each year there are 3 bids taken. One can be the incumbent and the 2 others a new company. They then present those 3 options at the meeting to discuss them openly. The cheaper bid won't always win but it is good to have competition to get an idea if there is something better out there. Should never sign a contract with anyone for more than a year in a HOA.

Once you have this policy in place, then work from there. No need in going into the past as you can't change it. I would also suggest that you be one of the ones who volunteers to bring bids to the board to help them out. Most of the time they don't want to fool with it and you can bring them bids along with others.

BTW we keep Jon around even though he may offend a few people here now and again. He kind of tells it like it is or atleast for him how it is. He can offer up some good advice now and again. However, all advice on here is free and you can take it or leave it.

Former HOA President

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

You can look at your own documents on the topic of owners' rights to inspect records, contracts, etc. If your docs are silent, look at NY laws.

In CA, and many other states, owners have the right to inspect and copy executed contracts.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RalphR3 on 03/10/2013 9:44 AM
Tim, we are an over 55 HOA. Your comments are always welcome. My opinion of Jon from NY is very negative based upon past comments.

Thank You...........(I actually think Jon is an idiot!)

Well Ralph lets see the property you live on spent $165,000 to clean up after ONE storm and here you are trying to seek free advice as to how you might handle this and I'm the idiot.

The contractor YOU agreed to use as you were overseeing the snow removal just last year submits a bill for $165,000 and now you see this as being the responsibility of the Board. Guess they did a real good job when you agreed to use them but this year since you left the Board boy did they change. And I'm the idiot.

Here on the property where I live we pay a litle more than $23,000 for the entire year. That includes the removal of any amount of snow at NO additional charge! This was the contract I worked out with the snow removal contractor. So for what you paid to remove the snow from ONE storm I could cover the cost of removing snow here( in any amount) for 7 YEARS! And if that makes me an idiot Ralph just what would that have to say about YOU?

Sorry Ralph I have nothing to offer you in the way of advice or suggestions other than start writing the check to cover your assessment.
It would appear to me you have a very long way to go to even get close to the idiot level of operation....

RalphR3 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

To JonD1 from NY. You were an idiot last year and you still are. I did not hire the contractor last year. That contractor screwed us last year and I was opposed to doing further business with him but I was outnumbered. The new board gave a new 3 year contract to the same contractor and they went from $5,500 an inch over 14" to $9,000 per inch over 14". This info is just to set the record straight and to set you straigth(you think everyone else besides yourself is off the wall). Jon, please do not respond. I'm not looking for free advice, just putting it out there. It's been one year since I posted on this site because you kept up your derogatory comments, back and forth, and it was last year that I realized you have nothing better to do with your time and/or your life.

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

Any reason you're ignoring my advice about your possible right to inspect contracts in NY, Ralph?

RalphR3 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

To CarolR11 from California. Thanks for your response. I have reviewed our HOA documents and New York state law and nothing refers to a member being entitled to see executed contracts. I have had issues prior with the Board and I still would like to prevail without the services of an attorney that apparently I would have to pay for. In New York the "not for profit" corporations are governed by the State Attorney General's office and FOIL(New York's Freedom of Information Law). This law only applies to HOA, condo, co-op and time shares; if you request to see their original plans and offerings. It also states that a member can request financial statement as well. To the best of my educated abilities, no other help from the State of New York laws and absoluely no references made in our HOA documents.
Thank You..........

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RalphR3 on 03/10/2013 4:10 PM
To CarolR11 from California. Thanks for your response. I have reviewed our HOA documents and New York state law and nothing refers to a member being entitled to see executed contracts. I have had issues prior with the Board and I still would like to prevail without the services of an attorney that apparently I would have to pay for. In New York the "not for profit" corporations are governed by the State Attorney General's office and FOIL(New York's Freedom of Information Law). This law only applies to HOA, condo, co-op and time shares; if you request to see their original plans and offerings. It also states that a member can request financial statement as well. To the best of my educated abilities, no other help from the State of New York laws and absoluely no references made in our HOA documents.
Thank You..........

Seems Ralph has all his information wrong. His explanation as to how things work in NY are all incorrect. What a surprise!

His understanding of the AG's role and that of a FOIL request is wrong.

Good work Ralph...... Make it up as you understand it.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

If you were in charge of snow removal last year, why would you have a contract where the association paid the contractor in advance? And why didn't they sue to get the money or at least a credit towards this year's services if they hired him again? We pay ours by the snowfall, so we don't have to worry about refunds at the end of the season (thankfully, we've only had two this year). If the board does as Melissa suggests and gets the bid, make sure there's language to that effect in the contract.

If your CCRs state homeowners have a right to review the contract, send them a formal letter citing that section. You may also want to check if the consumer protection division in your state handles homeowner association disputss like this - if so and you don't get a copy of the contract, file a complaint there. That may be enough to resolve the problem before duking it out in court.

As for the special assessment, do your Bylaws or CCRs require a meeting of the homeowners to approve it? If so, attend that meeting (hopefully your fellow homeowners are demanding it) and make another request to make the contract available to everyone, and then ask the Board why they agreed to pay more. If they have to explain themselves in front of the entire membership (which thsy should do anyway), that might resolve the problem.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

RalphR3 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

To JonD1 from New York. Here we go again-just like last year. You are an "a__". If you think you know everything by being involved in your small community you have another thing coming. I am certain with my statements regarding the AG and FOIL and New York State Laws(perhaps you should research these facts). I can guarantee you that I know more facts and have much better common sense in my little pinky they your entire person. I can't wait for your response but I would prefer it to end here. I have better use of my time. This is the problem with this site and this style forum to allow sarcastic remarks.......................

RalphR3 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

To SheilaH from Indiana. Thanks for the response. The Board of Directors is total control of contracts without any input or approval of membership and that's how they like it. They never share any of that type of information and as I stated, refused my request. Although I was in charge of snow last year, it was the last year of the previous three year contract that was in place. I recommended that they not use this contractor again as I also was in charge of security and recommended that they not use the same security company. After I left the Board, both companies were renewed with new contracts. The membership just keeps taking a beating while the Board keeps ticking. I came close last year to hiring my own attorney to fight their arrogance and secrecy but decided that I was not going to spend my own money when most of the other 700 members have grown frustrated and complacent after years of such behavior. My wife and I are the new members and we are younger than most others.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Ralph

Appoxiamately how many miles of roads to plow and typical past years cost.

Thanks

RalphR3 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

To JohnC46-thanks for the response. We have approx. 3 miles of roads, several parking lots on about 70 acres. Last years base contract was $93k pluc $5,500 per inch over 14". The new contract is $109k plus $9,000 per inch over 14". Plus I believe there may be other terms and conditions that benefit the contract as well. That is why I asked to see the contract and was denied. The Board does not disclose anything readily.................

ZacheryK (Florida)
Posts: 34

Posted:

To RalphR3 – You’ve stated:

“In New York the "not for profit" corporations are governed by the State Attorney General's office and FOIL(New York's Freedom of Information Law). This law only applies to HOA, condo, co-op and time shares; if you request to see their original plans and offerings. It also states that a member can request financial statement as well. To the best of my educated abilities, no other help from the State of New York laws and absoluely no references made in our HOA documents”; and,

“I am certain with my statements regarding the AG and FOIL and New York State Laws(perhaps you should research these facts.”

From your statements quoted above you apparently have considerable knowledge on the subject matter of FOIL and am hoping you can share some of that expertise. This topic has peaked my interest as I’ve had the pleasure of filing dozens of FOIL requests with NY State governmental agencies at the State and Local levels and would like to expand this to non-governmental entities.

It’s my understanding that FOIL only applies to “any state or municipal department, board, bureau, division, commission, committee, public authority, public corporation, council, office or other governmental entity performing a governmental or proprietary function for the state or any one or more municipalities thereof, except the judiciary or the state legislature.

I was not aware that FOIL also applies to “HOA, condo, co-op and time shares, and not-for-profits” as you stated and can not find it in Law. Here’s the link to the FOIL text at the NYS Department of State, Committee on Open Government site that has responsibility for FOIL.

http://www.dos.ny.gov/coog/foil2.html#s86

Could you please provide the reference details in Law that support your claims to applicability and hence validate your proclaimed expertise on this subject matter, thank you.

Zach

RalphR3 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

To ZacheryK from Florida. Thank you for your response. I researched the New York State Freedom Of Information Law, the federal FOI Act, the New York State "not for profit" corporation laws,etc. HOA's are under the jurisdiction of the AG in New York and that only applies to offering plans, questions of ownership, and maintenance of common areas. If you request a form for assitance from the Attorney General regarding FOIL and seeing documentation-the only form available on their site is to governmental agencies. You can check that out on the AG's site. Reading New York's FOIL it talks about govermental agencies and "Public Corporations". You can check that out for yourself. If you have any corrections for my interpretation and understanding, then I welcome your input. Thank You...........

ZacheryK (Florida)
Posts: 34

Posted:

Ralph3R.

I do not know, nor do I have an interest in, how the NYS Attorney General governs any entity. I was hoping for a succinct response to your claim that FOIL encompasses “HOA, condo, co-op, timeshares and not-for-profits” because as you stated “I am certain with my statements regarding the AG and FOIL and New York State Laws(perhaps you should research these facts.”

It is incorrect to broadly interpret the term “Public Corporation” to include HOA’s, timeshares or any entity that is not in the public domain. Public corporations are chartered by the state to perform a public benefit such as the Metropolitan Transportation Authority – although many question the MTA’s ability to actually benefit the public.

So, the reason you can not find in NYS FOIL Law documentation to support your claim of applicability to HOA’s, condo, co-op, timeshares, and not-for-profits is because it does not exist. It never has.

I am curious as to why you would claim with such authority your knowledge of NYS FOIL law when it’s obvious you don’t? In the future please bear in mind that many people on this site value the input of ALL those that are gracious enough to share their thoughts on a topic so it’s important to be factual – and courteous.

Zach

RalphR3 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

To ZacharyK(Florida)- I never claimed anything but the facts. I have no recourse under any of these laws and that is what I stated originally as to my research and knowledge. Apparently you don't comprehend what you read. Idiot#2. I am through with this site. There appears to be a number of such idiots and sarcastic people with nothing better to do! I tried last year and again this year and what I find is the same people who try to be helpful but don't know much about anything and those others who just suck..........

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ZacheryK on 03/11/2013 9:08 AM
To RalphR3 – You’ve stated:

“In New York the "not for profit" corporations are governed by the State Attorney General's office and FOIL(New York's Freedom of Information Law). This law only applies to HOA, condo, co-op and time shares; if you request to see their original plans and offerings. It also states that a member can request financial statement as well. To the best of my educated abilities, no other help from the State of New York laws and absoluely no references made in our HOA documents”; and,

“I am certain with my statements regarding the AG and FOIL and New York State Laws(perhaps you should research these facts.”

From your statements quoted above you apparently have considerable knowledge on the subject matter of FOIL and am hoping you can share some of that expertise. This topic has peaked my interest as I’ve had the pleasure of filing dozens of FOIL requests with NY State governmental agencies at the State and Local levels and would like to expand this to non-governmental entities.

It’s my understanding that FOIL only applies to “any state or municipal department, board, bureau, division, commission, committee, public authority, public corporation, council, office or other governmental entity performing a governmental or proprietary function for the state or any one or more municipalities thereof, except the judiciary or the state legislature.

I was not aware that FOIL also applies to “HOA, condo, co-op and time shares, and not-for-profits” as you stated and can not find it in Law. Here’s the link to the FOIL text at the NYS Department of State, Committee on Open Government site that has responsibility for FOIL.

http://www.dos.ny.gov/coog/foil2.html#s86

Could you please provide the reference details in Law that support your claims to applicability and hence validate your proclaimed expertise on this subject matter, thank you.

Zach

Zach:

To make a long stroy very short the reason Ralph the NY HOA Law expert can't provide proof as to hwat he says is because as you pointed out he is WRONG. The FOIL Laws and requirements DO NOT apply to HOA/Condos.

Nor does it ONLY apply to HOAs. As you sugest is pertains to GOVERNMENT agencies and institutions and has no role in the operation of HOAs.

Nor are the HOA/Condo properties "governed" by the AG. STRIKE 2 for Ralph.

Ralph was on the the Board and "left". Under what circustances he has decided not to share. My guess he is not missed.

Ralph oversaw the snowplowing and advised the Board to change contractors. The Board ignored his advice.

Ralph was head of security and advised the security company be replaced.
Again the Board ignored his advice.

Ralph seems to take issue with the fact the Board does not consult the membership with contract decisions. Guess Ralph fails to understand seeking the input from 700 property owners on every contract might SLOW the process and more than likely is not required under his documents.

I sense a pattern here. Ralph is a pompous know- it- all who in fact knows little. His proclamations about how the laws apply in NY are in fact ALL wrong. His understanding of FOIL applying to HOAs nonsense.
My guess there just might be a good reaosn why the Board is ignoring him.

Seems in Ralph's world he is right and everyone else is wrong. All the time. I have served on our Board in our SMALL community for 26 YEARS. Along the way I have picked up just a few things. But Ralph claims in his little pinky he has more knowledge than I do. Just that his little pinky has no clue about FOIL the role of the NYS AG's office or much else.

Sounds to me like Ralph is a self-proclaimed expert on all things and my guess those serving on the Board and the vast majoirty of his neighobrs understand Ralph is just a windbag.

Very recently we had another simpleminded fool who understtod everything. No one knew as much as he did. He did in fact sue his HOA. The first time he lost. His lawyer quit the case. He continued on representing himself. Before the case was decided he went around the web proclaiming his victory. Then the court ruled against him and all that he knew eneded up being very little.

Tough to gain knowledge in anything when all you ever hear is the echo of your own words.................

FOIL FOIL FOIL FOIL......... like a broken record.

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