Sanctioning of Neighborhood Watch Committee risks

Our HOA Board, of which I am a member, sanctioned our new Neighborhood Watch and made it a committee of the HOA. In doing research, as I was appointed to the board, I discovered we have put our members at risk by the sanctioning. I am tryig to convice the board members that we need to "dissolve at will" the Neighborhood Watch Committee and not be afiliated with them and have them only affiliate with local law enforcement. I have presented a printout in regards to this matter and the risk and none of them seem to understand this even when put in black and white by a professional HOA expert. Help!

You are correct about the risk.

It appears that you have done everything I would suggest and made them aware of the risks. Have you explained that it's ok to have a neighborhood watch, it just shouldn't be a committee of the Association. A member who organizes the watch could still use the club house, etc. for meetings without issues.

Best example is the worst case.
Someone is killed by a member of the watch (we've heard this story)
Grieving relative approaches or is approached by an attorney and a wrongful death suit is filed against anyone they can that might have money (i.e. the Association).

In the Florida case, as I understand it, the Association did have to spend some money to defend itself but was released from the legal action because they did not organize or coordinate the watch volunteers. Had they, it could have cost the Association a whole lot more to defend or settle and even more if they lost.

Just because you don't win every vote is no reason to quit.

If it's not already on the record, and if the others don't understand, then just concentrate on getting one ally. make a motion to dissolve the committee noting that the watch may continue but is not supported by the Association. Have your ally second the motion and have the vote on record.

If you are the one sound voice, you need to stay.


I see you haven't met my children


It takes time to educate. It took me three years to educate the membership and another two years of working with the Board before changes happened.

You might not win this issue now but if you leave, you might never get a chance to win the issue in the future.


I disagree. As a member of the Board you have access to more information then you would as a member. You can do more good by remaining a Director and being able to at least have the Board informed. As a Director you can make changes when you can and still gather support from the membership to remove or not reelect the current board and elect those that will support the changes you desire.

Hope this helps,

Tim

I agree that not winning on one issue is no reason to resign, however, this issue is putting the membership at great risk for multiple lawsuits as in the Trayvon Martin case. There is another contentious member who is being recalled by the community and he is abusive in language to everyone! There are a lot of financial issues which is going to be very costly for the membership and I don't think because we have the funds it should be spent frivolously without getting at least three bids. I also believe in hiring local whenever possible. I appreciate all the help here and I spend so much time fighting for the members on many issues. Some people get a little power and they like to wield it. I don't want to resign as I feel as you do that I can be the voice of reason. Problem being one voice - one vote!

But the voice would be there and perhaps sway others in the future.

If you leave, the voice goes quiet unless you're going to attend every board meeting (and if you're going to do that you might as well have a vote).

Make sure your Directors and Officers Insurance Policy is paid and up to date.

You are not dissolving it. Just not funding it from the HOA budget. the committee can stay in place and keep going on. Just have to get the money from the members who are in it not the entire HOA.

I would say that if some of my neighbors want to form a committee and start a neighborhood watch that as long as the BOD has nothing to do with it, does not recognize it, does not fund it, does not appoint it, will not even discuss the subject in a meeting, then power to them and have at it. I might even join it myself.

I had the issue of "dissolving at will" the Neighborhood Watch Committee on our HOA Board Agenda and I explained why it should be done and thought at least three of the five on the board were going to vote with me. I only had one vote with me and two against when one of those was in complete agreement with me, but the one vote I thought I had from the Vice President who didn't want to get on anyone's bad side abstained! The head of the Neighborhood Watch Committee said I had tried to pull off a caper! Didn't know what he meant by that. I have discovered that most of these people don't know how to read what is put before them in black and white. I told them the Neighborhood Watch would be intact, but not affiliated with the HOA, only local law enforcement. Then after the meeting this man started making fun of my disabilities and stating I carry a concealed weapon and that I am on a lot of medications. He doesn't know anything about me and I don't have a gun or weapon of any kind/ I take medication for diabetes only! I asked for an apology and he sent me an e-mail with all the lies he made up and told me I was a danger to this community. He actually put all these lies in writing. I couln't sleep as I now realize this man is delusional and has no ability to realize as a homeowner this sanctioning has put us in a position of liability. It is however on record that I tried to do something to remedy this oversight.

You did do the right thing here by trying to separate the two. Seriously, please go to the police and report this incident. We aren't talking pressing charges. Just need to open a few people's eyes that they are not above the law when it comes to their own actions. Harrassing communications is against the law just as much as trying to stop someone from breaking into a home. I have had people accuse me of similar issues in the past. One accused me of stealing his girlfriend's gun from her car. I was captain of the neighborhood watch! There was a rash of break ins occurring it was the kid who lived across the street from me that was found to be guilty of it. I did not even live in the HOA at the time. By my going to the police and talking to them, they knew the accusations against me were not even remotely true. The accuser had to tell everyone he lied. So it is best to nip this in the bud just so you can have reports on hand for future needs if need be.

Good for you. Many would be scared in your situation and not do anything. Yes, it is scary I agree 100%. However, if you don't go to the police and have a discussion with them now it will just get worse. Unfortunately, our laws have not caught up with our "Internet age" so laws not necessarily have been broken as you wish they had been. That is why I mentioned the "harrassing communications" which is a real charge the police can bring up. Remember police can NOT drop charges but they can write them up. Only the court can drop the charges. Which is why I advised that you may just want to talk to the cop first to make a good scare tactic if you are uncomfortable with going forward with all the legal stuff. However, if he does not get the point and gets the cop upset, you may need to go through with your threat. Just be prepared for that result.

I can't believe in this day and age after what happened in Florida with that shooting by a neighborhood watch person in a HOA run NW anyone would NOT want to separate the two. Maybe you should get a few copies of articles on that case to bring to the board and how the HOA is facing a HUGE lawsuit. That lawsuit which ALL the owners will be subject into paying if they were to lose. Put it in perspective and the real risk of the lawsuit payout the insurance will NOT be protecting against. The insurance caps out at a certain amount then after that it is on the owners to pay up. Our insurance even though it was a 1 million dollar policy only paid out 80K to lawsuits brought against the HOA. So don't think a Million dollar policy pays out 1 million dollars. It doesn't and most lawsuits are for more than insurance pays out.

Good luck and hopefully keep that other board member on your side to help you out.

Joyce,

My experience has been that when I start talking law, peoples' eyes glaze over. Suggest talking in terms they do understand: Money.

How much would a Travon Martin type of case cost your association? Would your insurance even cover it? How much would your deductible be? Who pays if coverage is not enough? How much would a settlement cost each homeowner? When owners find out in dollars and cents what is at stake they may pay a little more attention.

As bad as the Martin case is, the HOA would have been even worse off had he been severly injured. In a wrongful death, the jury is usually instructed to make a determination of how much the victim was worth. An unemployed teenager is not, in the eyes of the law, worth the same a middle-aged aerospace engineer supporting a family of four. The actual damages the Martin family will recover are not likely to be proportional to the coverage this case has received.

On the other hand, when a person is severly injured, the jury must determine how much earning power he has lost and what his medical needs will be for the rest of his life. An injured teenager who may live for another 60 years but need 24/7 medical care could win a jury award approaching the 100 million dollar mark.

The comments made to you by the head of the NW are disturbing. One function of NW is to report what they have witnessed. This guy has already established a total lack of credibility. I would not hesitate to bring this to the attention of the law-enforcement liason as they have no more need for this loose cannon than you do.

What is a reasonable risk associated with launching a "Neighborhood Watch" program?

Kelly if you read any of my posts you will understand that sanctioning by the HOA of a Neighborhood Watch Committee is not advisable as it puts the entire membership in liability. It should affiliate only with local law enforcement. If you go int sites of attorneys who specialize in HOA law then you will see they warn against sanctioning of Neighborhood Watch Committees.

I have heard there is an umbrella type insurance one can purchase to cover decisions that may effect you. It's been mentioned on here before. Especially those who are board members who's HOA insurance may leave them a bit exposed to their personal assets. Just can't recall the name of it. It may not regard "HOA" in the description if your agent is looking it up. It's probably some kind of personal liability/umbrella type. You may even address this issue with the HOA's insurance agent if you have their contact information. This way you would know what limits you should have when you purchase the insurance. You don't want to get a million dollar policy if worst case is only 100K in your HOA insurance not paying out.

Thought you all might like to hear how my Neighborhood Watch Committee sanctioning has been dealt with. As you know I put it on the agenda in March to "dissolve at will" the committee and let them affiliate with local law enforcement only. I thought I had 4 of 5 votes and as it turned out I only had 2! In the interim the head of NW who vilified me and slandered me for trying to dissolve the committee has since discovered that if the NW has fund raisers the money goes into a fund for the HOA to use for the entire community since they are a sanctioned committee. He did not like that fact so in the April meeting he asked for the issue be put back on the agenda to "dissolve at will" the NW Committee. I, being a board member, made sure everyone knew that it was all about money. This man, in my opinion, wants to line his own pockets! They are not going by any guidelines that most NW Committees practice in that they are approaching people at night and running them out of the community and in one instance it was a resident! They should only be observing and if they see a crime being committed they should call 911. They got into an altercation with a local company who was conducting an estate sale and a physical fight occurred. Supposedly our NW head threatened to pepper spray the man and every customer in the home! He claims the man shoved him and drew blood! Then he changed that and said none of it happened. Typical politician this man as he flip-flops continually! Scary!

Steve, the NW head man wanted to de-sanction the committee and we voted on it April 26, 2013 and they are no longer a committee of the HOA! Good thing. When I tried to do the same last month this man vilified me and slandered me! Then he discovered he could not keep any funds acquired in fund raisers and he didn't like that! He asked to de-sanction the committee and it is a done deal. When I suggested our insurance would go up in the event we were sued a renter told me I didn't know what I was talking about. That is not going to happen again. I have been reelected to the board for a two year term. We will be working on updating the CC&Rs. They are over 25 years old. I also have connections in the community and they will be visited by someone who is very interested in the tactics they use as NW and will shut them down if it continues in the same manner. Thanks for your help!

Well did not think of that angle. I kind of like it. People do not like it when they truly find out where those "full pockets" of HOAs come from and then has to be shared... Glad you all got him to unsanction it. It may just be in time...

Sorry he was not the head of HOA he was the head of NW.

Speaking of neighborhood watch. The Trayvon Martin case just settled with the HOA.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-death-civil-case-housing-complex-settled-1-million-article-1.1308943

http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/2012/04/homeowners-may-have-to-pay-in-a-trayvon-civil-action.html

Our Board looked into this a few months ago. We were approached by a resident who wanted to head up a Neighborhood Watch committee and initiate a Safe House" program where certain houses would be designated as "safe" for kids to go to if there was a problem.

At first blush it sounded okay but when we delved into what it would entail; yearly background checks, potential liability etc etc, we decided it was most definitely NOT something the HOA should be involved in (financially or otherwise).

We simply suggested the resident contact the local police department.

I would pose the liability questions to the Board, in writing.

I am on the BOD, I took nothing as personal. We had two trouble making misogynists on the board and in the new election they are now gone and I am not! One was the acting President who refused to gavel the other as he screamed and yelled at a 95 year-old woman suffering from dementia, however when I had the floor and would try to make my case or get a point across he would gavel me! At the last meeting he did the same and I told him it would be the last time he did that to me and asked if he got it, he just looked at me stunned! Later the same day he was not reelected and was once again stunned! He then tried to give me back his key to the clubhouse all flustered and I told him he had a right to a key to the clubhouse as he is still a member. He won't be a problem anymore! People are smart enough to see someone who has let his authority go to his head and he is no longer on the board. I on the other hand am on for another two years! As everyone has said to me, they think I am the voice of reason on the board. Thanks for your input.