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SaraP1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Our BOD was contacted last evening to report that while walking their dog (with their 2 children, under 5) another resident lost control of his dog. The 2nd dog was said to have bitten the 1st dog twice. The 2nd dog is known for it's nasty temperment, but was never reported to the Assocation nor the Police for biting/attacking. (Though others have said the owner has "paid off" other residents with gift cards to likely avoid being reported.) It was, however, previously reported to the BOD for being out of the control of the owner and chasing after another dog.

The victim doesn't want to call the police/animal control, yet wants the assocation to "handle" this. What responsibility does the association have if the victim won't file a report? Can the assocation file one to document it?
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Since when did your association take over for the county animal control? Even if the victim filed a report with the proper law enforcement agency, what authority does your association have to deal with this?

Some owners just do not get it that the association is not a supercop that can right all wrongs. Your association's powers are limited by the declaration.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Not sure how it works in CT but in NY it is required that someone file a complaint. We had a similar situation and like you the victim was unwilling to report the incident. We were able to convince this person it was in the best interest of her neighbors and the property to file a complaint.

In the end it was uncovered this animal had previously bitten a POLICE OFFICER doing servere damage to his wrist and leaving a scar!

The judge who heard this matter ordered restrictions on this dog as to where and when it could be allowed to wlak on the property. IF another incident was reported the dog would be classified a dangerous animal and might be ordered to have the animal put down.

I would contact the local animal control officer or police and see what they require to file a complaint. I would then speak to the victim explaining IF this dog were to bite lets say a small child and do servere damage this might open all the residents up to a large lawsuit.

In many cases not the fault of the dog but rather the idiot that owns them..
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Not sure how it works in CT but in NY it is required that someone file a complaint. We had a similar situation and like you the victim was unwilling to report the incident. We were able to convince this person it was in the best interest of her neighbors and the property to file a complaint.

In the end it was uncovered this animal had previously bitten a POLICE OFFICER doing servere damage to his wrist and leaving a scar!

The judge who heard this matter ordered restrictions on this dog as to where and when it could be allowed to wlak on the property. IF another incident was reported the dog would be classified a dangerous animal and might be ordered to have the animal put down.

I would contact the local animal control officer or police and see what they require to file a complaint. I would then speak to the victim explaining IF this dog were to bite lets say a small child and do servere damage this might open all the residents up to a large lawsuit.

In many cases not the fault of the dog but rather the idiot that owns them..
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SaraP1 on 02/25/2013 5:53 AM

Can the assocation file one to document it?

No.
All the Association has is gossip.

It's up to the individual who was attacked to make the report or one of the witnesses to the incident to make the report.

If none of them want to come forward (for whatever reason), then the Association should leave it alone except to tell the people who are asking the Association to address the issue that the individuals involved should contact animal control.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SaraP1 on 02/25/2013 5:53 AM
The victim doesn't want to call the police/animal control, yet wants the assocation to "handle" this. What responsibility does the association have if the victim won't file a report? Can the assocation file one to document it?

The association has no responsibility whatsoever to file a complaint with the police or with animal control. In fact, it's best to stay out of it.

About the only authority or responsibility the association has is to enforce it's own CCRs and rules/regulations. If there is nothing in your documents regarding animals within the community, there is nothing the association can do. If there is something in your documents regarding animals within your community, then the association can only do what those documents allow the association to do. Nothing more.

If you lived in a neighborhood that was not in an association and your neighbor or your neighbor's dog is bitten by another dog, is it up to you to file a police report?

The answer is no and the answer doesn't change just because you happen to live in an association community.

It is up to the individual involved to file a report with the authorities or seek other legal remedies through the courts against the other dog owner.
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
I see things differently. Isn't it the responsibility of the association to address possible dangers to the property's residents? Isn't it the responsibility of the association to work to remove or act on to the best of their ability a situation that might prove harmful to other residents?

I would wonder IF this dog were to go on to maul a small child just who might be named as a defendent in the lawsuit? And the association was aware just decided not to take any action. And whose insurance might be called on to cover this claim? Does the dog owner have insurance? Does the insurance cover such claims? Or is it best to find out after the fact?

In some cases insurance will not cover certain breeds of dogs. Either private insurance or the property's master policy what then?

IMO IF you have a dog with a history of aggressive behavior it would be the assciation's duty to do whatever possible to address this. IF the victim refuses to file a report contact animal control and find out if anything else can be done. To simply take the stance it is not an association mater is IMO a mistake.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
In all likelihood the authorities will only accept a complaint or report from the victim.
SaraP1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 4
Posted:
I agree that the Association shouldn't file a report as it is the victim's responsibility. I wasn't certain if the Association needed to file a report in order to have the alleged attack on file should there be any claims against the Association. (However according to the docs, the association will be held harmless from claims resulting in actions of pets.)

Our documents outline the following applicable rules regarding pets:

Section 3.3 - Pets. Dogs, cats, and other animals
capable of domestication may be kept on the property under the
following conditions:

f) dogs shall not be permitted in any portion of the
Common Elements unless carried or on a leash;

i) any permitted pet causing or creating a nuisance
or unreasonable disturbance or noise shall be permanently removed
from the property within three days after Notice and Hearing
from the Executive Board;

j) the owner of any pet kept or present on the property
shall hold the Association harmless from any claims resulting
from its actions.
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SaraP1 on 02/25/2013 8:35 AM
I agree that the Association shouldn't file a report as it is the victim's responsibility. I wasn't certain if the Association needed to file a report in order to have the alleged attack on file should there be any claims against the Association. (However according to the docs, the association will be held harmless from claims resulting in actions of pets.)

Our documents outline the following applicable rules regarding pets:

Section 3.3 - Pets. Dogs, cats, and other animals
capable of domestication may be kept on the property under the
following conditions:

f) dogs shall not be permitted in any portion of the
Common Elements unless carried or on a leash;

i) any permitted pet causing or creating a nuisance
or unreasonable disturbance or noise shall be permanently removed
from the property within three days after Notice and Hearing
from the Executive Board;

j) the owner of any pet kept or present on the property
shall hold the Association harmless from any claims resulting
from its actions.

It would seem to me the Board would have some grounds to now address the behavior under the guidelines you have provided. Is not attacking another animal a "nuisance" or "distrubance"?
Under the legal definition I would say so.

And as far as (j) goes IMO that would be difficult at best to expect this might provide protection in the event someone were injured. Sort of like when the carwash posts signs saying "not responsible for damage". I doubt this would prevent legal action against the property.
SaraP1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JonD1 on 02/25/2013 8:43 AM
Posted By SaraP1 on 02/25/2013 8:35 AM
I agree that the Association shouldn't file a report as it is the victim's responsibility. I wasn't certain if the Association needed to file a report in order to have the alleged attack on file should there be any claims against the Association. (However according to the docs, the association will be held harmless from claims resulting in actions of pets.)

Our documents outline the following applicable rules regarding pets:

Section 3.3 - Pets. Dogs, cats, and other animals
capable of domestication may be kept on the property under the
following conditions:

f) dogs shall not be permitted in any portion of the
Common Elements unless carried or on a leash;

i) any permitted pet causing or creating a nuisance
or unreasonable disturbance or noise shall be permanently removed
from the property within three days after Notice and Hearing
from the Executive Board;

j) the owner of any pet kept or present on the property
shall hold the Association harmless from any claims resulting
from its actions.


It would seem to me the Board would have some grounds to now address the behavior under the guidelines you have provided. Is not attacking another animal a "nuisance" or "distrubance"?
Under the legal definition I would say so.

And as far as (j) goes IMO that would be difficult at best to expect this might provide protection in the event someone were injured. Sort of like when the carwash posts signs saying "not responsible for damage". I doubt this would prevent legal action against the property.

In re-reading the section, the owner of the aggressor may not be able to file claims, but the vicitm may.

Has anyone had a pet removed from the property? I've never heard of it happening at my HOA. (I'm just looking for some best practives, advice, etc.)
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
There also are Rules & Reg in our HOA that're similar to Sara's. But if we (the Board) cannot verify the dog attack, I don't think we'd be able to do much except the allegation in the unit file of the owner of the dog.

We have not had to take any action about this either, Sara, but with witnesses, we'd be able to demand that the dog be muzzled when in the common areas or actually have the dog removed from the property.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
There also are Rules & Reg in our HOA that're similar to Sara's. But if we (the Board) cannot verify the dog attack, I don't think we'd be able to do much except the allegation in the unit file of the owner of the dog.

We have not had to take any action about this either, Sara, but with witnesses, we'd be able to demand that the dog be muzzled when in the common areas or actually have the dog removed from the property.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
PS, Sara, if you have witnesses that the dog hasn't been under the control of the owner (carried or on leash), you should be able to call the owner to a hearing and levy fines if permitted by your docs. We have, with witnesses, issued "courtesy letters" on that topic, but the dog owners have complied and we haven't needed to call them to hearing.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11 on 02/25/2013 10:27 AM
we'd be able to demand that the dog be muzzled when in the common areas or actually have the dog removed from the property.

Realistically, how would an Association go about having the dog removed from the property except through the courts?
A logical counter argument in court would be the lack of reports to the animal warden.

If the individuals involved are not willing to report the incidents to the authorities, why would the Association expect those same individuals to show up in court as a witness and explain to the judge that the incident wasn't severe enough to contact the authorities but sever enough to complain to the Association?

This is why I believe that the Association response should be to inform the parties involved that they need to report the issue to the authorities.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I agree this is NOT a HOA matter. It is a police/court/animal control issue. I know I had many requests by members wanting us to handle certain issues that fell into those lines. My response most of the time? Nothing. If you want action taken in this world the best and only party that is responsible is yourself. Why expect other's to do it for you and get a result?

We once had a dog escape because the lawncare opened the door when they went to mow. The dog got out and was killed by a car on a busy road that was outside our fence area. The owner wanted us to pay for the cost of the dog! Nope. If anyone would pay for it, it would have been the lawncare's insurance. Had nothing to do with the HOA. This case is somewhat similar as there was lost control of a dog by the owner. It's no one else's fault but the owner. (I have 2 dogs myself and would know that it would be my responsibilty if my dogs were to attack. It is part of dog ownership.)

Former HOA President
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
As I wrote, I don't think we could do much if the one attacked or startled by a dog doesn't complain. There must be witnesses to dog attacks on other dogs or people on our premises. W edo have a lot of cameras, which could pick up problem dog behavior.

In elevator buildings with corridors like ours, dogs must be controlled. We do have the rules on our books, and would go to court if need be. We've never needed to in 12 years.
JM10 (California)
Posts: 503
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SaraP1 on 02/25/2013 5:53 AM
Our BOD was contacted last evening to report that while walking their dog (with their 2 children, under 5) another resident lost control of his dog. The 2nd dog was said to have bitten the 1st dog twice. The 2nd dog is known for it's nasty temperment, but was never reported to the Assocation nor the Police for biting/attacking. (Though others have said the owner has "paid off" other residents with gift cards to likely avoid being reported.) It was, however, previously reported to the BOD for being out of the control of the owner and chasing after another dog.

The victim doesn't want to call the police/animal control, yet wants the assocation to "handle" this. What responsibility does the association have if the victim won't file a report? Can the assocation file one to document it?

You have an owner whose dog was bitten twice. The owner of the dog doesn't want to call the police or animal control. You don't say whether either dog was off leash so I'd guess that means that both dogs were on a leash? Were the dogs on a leash when the aggressive dog bit the victim's dog?

In California, dogs are considered property. Damage to property is a civil code matter. That means it is under the jurisdiction of civil courts and the complainant can only collect for the damage to property (meaning vet bills, etc.). Emotional distress is not an issue.

Damage to personal property even on the common area of a HOA is not a HOA board matter.

If either or both dogs were off-leash, that is a possible HOA concern.

In the case of a vicious, potentially vicious or dangerous dog, those are something evaluated by city and state codes. An animal control person would be able to help you define these. Usually the determining factors are reported aggressive activity and usually the severity of the attack, whether the attack is on a person/property and the frequency of occurrence. So if the person(s) who were under attack were injured or had property (their dog or dogs) damaged, they must report it in order to this to be evaluated. If there are two attacks within a year of a certain severity, then something can be done.

However, if there is no official report, then nothing can be done.

I was attacked by a dog, but my witnesses would not show up in court and you can't expect honesty from a person with a problem dog. They are usually in denial. My husband's friend was attacked. The second time, required hospitalization. She still refuses to report. Nothing can be done and she's been off of work for a few months due to this injury.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 02/25/2013 10:47 AM

If the individuals involved are not willing to report the incidents to the authorities, why would the Association expect those same individuals to show up in court as a witness and explain to the judge that the incident wasn't severe enough to contact the authorities but sever enough to complain to the Association?

This is why I believe that the Association response should be to inform the parties involved that they need to report the issue to the authorities.

Tim,

You have once again identified the crux of the matter.

If the victim still wants the association to act, the association should, at the very least, demand from her a notarized affidavit attesting to what she saw. The last thing you would want to happen is to end up in court with a witness who says, "I never said anything like that!" The affidavit locks them into a story and the notary confirms who wrote it.
JM10 (California)
Posts: 503
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 02/25/2013 6:49 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 02/25/2013 10:47 AM

If the individuals involved are not willing to report the incidents to the authorities, why would the Association expect those same individuals to show up in court as a witness and explain to the judge that the incident wasn't severe enough to contact the authorities but sever enough to complain to the Association?

This is why I believe that the Association response should be to inform the parties involved that they need to report the issue to the authorities.


Tim,

You have once again identified the crux of the matter.

If the victim still wants the association to act, the association should, at the very least, demand from her a notarized affidavit attesting to what she saw. The last thing you would want to happen is to end up in court with a witness who says, "I never said anything like that!" The affidavit locks them into a story and the notary confirms who wrote it.

I think this is basically a good idea with a reluctant witness, but in court when the defendant wants to question the validity of the notarized document and the witness isn't there, this might be a problem.

I was attacked by a dog and could identify the people. But my witness wasn't there when the defendants tried to raise doubt. The small claims court judge wasn't the brightest and could have easily checked the claims (e.g. the woman claimed she was working on a Friday morning teaching a class on the last day of finals week---as a teacher you know that never happens and few finals are scheduled for Fridays).

However, it does prevent the person from recanting.

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