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KarenS21 (Texas)
Posts: 4
Posted:
I'm quite familiar with both our CC&R and Texas state law pertaining to HOAs. Neither grants an HOA the power to fine. Texas HOAs that wish to fine have the authority in their CC&R.

Our board recently enacted a fine policy by a simple board motion. The homeowners did not vote on the policy. Our CC&R enforcement section it "shall be . . . in law or in equity", which legal dictionaries define to be, basically, a civil lawsuit. Fines are not mentioned at all. Following the enforcement covenant, board have relied on civil suit to enforce violations when the situation was severe enough to warrant it. It worked well to prevent the capricious, discriminatory, and arbitrary enforcement situations that a simple mechanism like fines can encourage.

Their legal argument is that as there is nothing in the CC&R forbidding a fine policy, then it is legal to impose one. They also cite Texas Property Code, Sec. 202.004. "ENFORCEMENT OF RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS. (a) An exercise of authority by a property owners' association or other representative designated by an owner of real property concerning a restrictive covenant is presumed reasonable unless the court determines by a preponderance of the evidence that the exercise of discretionary authority was arbitrary, capricious, or discriminatory."

My reading of court interpretations of 202 is that it gives the board broad authority to exercise "explicit" powers (i.e. those contained within the CC&R), whereas our board seems to think it gives them implicit, unwritten powers, that they can enact simply by passing a motion in a regular board meeting.

I have argued that circumventing the CC&R enforcement policy by imposing fines makes the HOA itself a violator of the covenants.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated (if you've answer was lost in the site crash, thanks anyway :~).
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Karen,

I am not an attorney and I do not work within the legal profession.

Without having access to your CC&Rs or the court opinions you reference, I can only base my advice based on the reading of the the TX statute and my research into similar issues in VA. Based on that information, I would say that your argument has merit.
To prove your argument and get an absolute ruling, the issue will have to be brought to the courts.
This, of course, will cost everyone time (years), energy (stress) and money (lots of it).

KarenS21 (Texas)
Posts: 4
Posted:
I've retrieved the HOA's covenant enforcement language. Here it is in its entirety:

10.001 Enforcement. The Association, or any Owner, shall have the right to
enforce, by any proceeding law or in equity, all restrictions, conditions, covenants,
reservations, liens and charges now or hereafter imposed by the provisions of this
Declaration. Failure by the Association or by any Owner to enforce any covenant or
restriction herein contained shall in no event be deemed a waiver of the right to do so
hereafter.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Karen,

You can't just read that one section. You need to read the whole document and look to see if the document authorizes the Association to adopt rules and regulations and penalties for those rules and regulations. If it does, then an argument can be made that the Board did have the authority.

Again, I agree with you that your argument has merit.
However, even if everyone on this forum agrees that your argument has merit, if your Board (or a future board) disagrees with you, then the only way to prove the argument is through the courts.

As you are aware, the CC&Rs are a contract between all members.
The Association was created to oversee that contract and, perhaps, maintain common areas and provide specific services.
The Board is elected (or appointed) to exercise the authority of the Association.
Contracts work only when everyone involved agrees to abide by the conditions of the contract.
If one party doesn't agree, then the disagreement needs to be resolved.
This is typically done by modifying (amending) the contract or through a third party (mediation or the courts) who both sides agree will settle the disagreement.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Karen

I say the catch is:

all restrictions, conditions, covenants,
reservations, liens and charges now or hereafter imposed by the provisions of this
Declaration.


If a fining structure exists in the Covenants/Declaration, then it can be enforced.

If there is no fining structure in the Covenants/Declaration then the Covenants/Declaration must be amended.

What I do not see as proper is a BOD just Implementing such fines via Rules and Regulations.

My view.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
John,

I agree. Our CC&Rs also has an "enforce by any proceeding law or in equity" phrasing. However, within the CC&Rs, depending on the restriction or covenant, we are allowed to use additional enforcement methods. For example:

We may tow illegally parked vehicles
We may impound personal property and charge for their return

We don't utilize either of those options. However, the CC&Rs do authorize that method.
This is why I told Karen she needs to look through the whole document and not just that one section.
EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446
Posted:
Do not forget to check State Statutes for words such as (for example, from the Vermont Statute):

3-102. Powers of unit owners' association

(a) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (b) of this section and other provisions of this title, the association:

(11) May impose charges for late payment of assessments and, after notice and a hearing, may impose reasonable fines for violations of the declaration, bylaws, and rules of the association.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By EllieD on 02/24/2013 8:28 AM
Do not forget to check State Statutes for words such as (for example, from the Vermont Statute):

3-102. Powers of unit owners' association

(a) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (b) of this section and other provisions of this title, the association:

(11) May impose charges for late payment of assessments and, after notice and a hearing, may impose reasonable fines for violations of the declaration, bylaws, and rules of the association.

Ellie,

We have a similar statute in Arizona but I have always interpretted it as procedural, meaning that if the declaration allows the association to levy fines then this is the procedure that must be followed. I do not interpret the AZ statute to alter all declarations to grant associations powers to fine that did not previously exist.

I would find it hard to believe that the Vermont legislature intended to impose a statutory amendment on every declaration but find it pretty easy to believe that they wished to ensure that there is some form of due process when an association does levy a fine.
EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446
Posted:
Larry,

I should have written more. What I was trying to point out was that the ability of an Association to levy a fine probably starts with a State Statute.

Earlier Vermont statutes did not give an Association the right to fine for violations. So if an existing Declaration was written in accordance with the “early” statute, it probably has nothing in it about the right to fine.

Now, however, with our “revised state statute”, if an Association that previously did not have the right to levy a fine for violations now wants that ability, you are correct I believe, that the existing Declaration would have to be amended or restated, so as to submit to the provisions of the current revised ACT (the excerpts I posted).
ZacheryK (Florida)
Posts: 34
Posted:
Our HOA is struggling with a similar situation. Florida Statute 720.305.2 states “The association may levy reasonable fines of up to $100 per violation against any member.....” and then sets up procedures that must be followed.

Our CC&R’s have the standard “in law or equity” enforcement provisions and no authority or power to establish Fines.

Some members feel that although the State gives us the right to Fine we must amend one of the docs in the CC&R’s to make it official. Others feel as the OP stated that the Board can enact a fine policy by a simple Board motion because the State gives us the right.

Our HOA has operated for many decades without Fines and the general consensus is that the members would never approve an amendment to implement Fines.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Zachery,

I did not see where FL 720.305 deferred to the CC&Rs. I may have missed it but don't think so.

If I'm correct (and I have been in error in the past), that statute would supersede your Declaration and, providing the Board follows the proper procedures, fines in FL HOAs would be allowed.
EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446
Posted:
Larry,

Re Vermont 3-102(a)(11): After I posted, I decided to check Vermont Title 27A, and I found this:

Section 1-204. Preexisting common interest communities

(a)(1) Unless excepted under section 1-203 of this title, the following sections of this title apply to a common interest community created in this state before January 1, 1999: sections 1-103, 1-105, 1-106, 1-107, 2-103, 2-104, 2-121, 3-102(a)(1) through (6) and (11) through (16), 3-111, 3-116, 3-118, 4-109 and 4-117 to the extent necessary to construe the applicable sections. The sections described in this subdivision apply only to events and circumstances occurring after December 31, 1998 and do not invalidate existing provisions of the declarations, bylaws, plats or plans of those common interest communities.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Ellie

Earlier Vermont statutes did not give an Association the right to fine for violations. So if an existing Declaration was written in accordance with the “early” statute, it probably has nothing in it about the right to fine.

Then the association could have had the right to fine in the Covenants and all agreed to it when signed for them so the he!! with what the state "did not say". The ability to fine stands as all agreed to it. Remeber VT did not say you "cannot fine".

I agree if no right to fine in the Covenants some will need to amend to add fining but can with confidence as VT says you can.

Zach

One of the main issues has been when the association has the right to fine, did they clarify such and follow procedure? Seems to me many of the court battles were not over an associations right/procedure to fine, but were they capricious in their application of such. I believe that was the basis of the infamous NJ case that many cite.

I am not nor do I play a lawyer.

KarenS21 (Texas)
Posts: 4
Posted:
UPDATE: I've just learned that recently, the board heard an opinion on the legality of fines from a top Dallas HOA attorney. The question came up during closed session addressing a different matter.

The attorney said the fine policy was invalid. Texas does not give the HOA statutory authority to fine, nor do our CC&Rs. The covenants would have to be amended by a vote of the homeowners to add authorizing language. He was unequivocal, I am told. I got this info from an ex-board member who was present during the meeting.

Apparently, the board intends to ignore this opinion, believing most people would rather pay their fines rather than go through the effort required to defend themselves with a lawsuit.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KarenS21 on 02/25/2013 1:35 AM

Apparently, the board intends to ignore this opinion, believing most people would rather pay their fines rather than go through the effort required to defend themselves with a lawsuit.

OR they are unaware of the opinion.

Even if it is a written opinion in the files of the Association, most Directors don't bother to research issues by going through those files. If they can't find the answer on the internet they likely stop their research (that is if they do any research at all).

I gained a ton of knowledge by taking the time to go through my Association records.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
In my early 20's I opened up a foreign car repair business. Somehow I managed to keep it afloat for a year before going under. A decade later I returned to college and discovered that many things that I had done in that business did not comply with contract law. I concluded that I had gotten away with the things that I did because my customers were equally as ignorant about the law as I was.

I think associations operate mostly from a standpoint of ignorance. But if just one irate and well-heeled homeowner mounts a challenge, the HOA almost always goes down with disasterous consequences. Belhaven, for example, filed bankruptcy after losing their fight. A Florida association paid out over two hundred thousand dollars to a homeowner who prevailed in his quest to park his pickup truck in his driveway. A California association's insurance company paid over $400,000 in claims related to a lawsuit over a maintenance contract and now faces a huge hike in premiums.

All of these problems were avoidable by seeking out legal advice before asserting a claim against a homeowner. That raises the question of how do you know good advice from bad? There are a lot of lazy lawyers who shoot from the hip and they are seldom right.

When you ask for advice, you should present your attorney with all your governing documents and even the subdivision plat. A specific written question, such as, "Can we levy a fine against someone who leaves his garbage cans out all the time?" will get a more specific answer than asking, "What are we allowed to do?" Your attorney should respond with a written opinion and his opinion should make reference to statutes and case law he relied on. An opinion that relies on his personal beliefs, common sense, logic, or other guesswork is worthless and nearly always dead wrong. Be prepared to pay the attorney for his work as he should spend hours researching on resources such as Westlaw. Getting an attorney's opinion is expensive but far less costly than allowing a board made up of homeowners from taking matters into their own hands.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 02/25/2013 5:45 AM
I think associations operate mostly from a standpoint of ignorance. But if just one irate and well-heeled homeowner mounts a challenge, the HOA almost always goes down with disasterous consequences.

Consider one of my neighborhoods, where the attorney called their amendments a "grey area" of the law but the HOA pushed through. Pretty much every homeowner paid their assessments except one "well-heeled homeowner" who mounted a challenge. Fast forward 5 years and the HOA is pretty much bankrupt and the board members and homeowners behind the action are being dragged through the mud and the ground salted - all because of ignorance (and maybe arrogance). All that could have been prevented had the HOA took the time and done things properly. Then they would have gotten what they wanted.
KarenS21 (Texas)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Bit of a breakthrough today . . . I've located a book on Texas HOA law that's partially viewable on Google Books. The section on fining authority is virtually complete(!) http://books.google.com/books?id=9ve9k0xMqwIC&q=fines#v=onepage&q&f=false. It looks to be comprehensive and well referenced. It might even help those in other states determine what questions need to be asked.

Per this author, fining authority in a Texas HOA "must be expressly authorized by its Governing Documents". There is no statutory authority.

I've scoured our Governing Docs thoroughly. I find authority to fine for Common Area rules violations only, not for covenant violations.

Now the question is, what to do about it. Our HOA lost an expensive legal fight some years back because they ignored the law.. My concern is that we're going down that road again, possibly in a class action lawsuit numerous defendants seeking punitive and compensatory damages. Maybe I should let my grass grow tall and see what happens. :~)
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Karen,

I had an issue with my HOA that had VA statutes plainly on my side.
Had it gone to court I'm 99% positive I would have won.

However, I chose to educate the membership and vote those who didn't bother to look at or couldn't understand the statutes off the Board. It took three years but it worked.

If you know your going down that road again, why not stop everyone, educate them and see if you can get them back on the correct road without the expensive lesson of a court case. Start with the board. You might educate enough board members that the issue will be resolved by majority vote. If that doesn't work, share what you have learned with the membership. Start with neighbors and go on from there.

TeddieL (Texas)
Posts: 13
Posted:
I also live in Texas and after 40 years our HOA Board has decided to start fining. Our CC&Rs do not give the Board the authority to fine, do not even discuss fines. Also, the CC&Rs state under Enforcement that enforcement must be at law or in equity (through the courts.)

However, the Bylaws state that the Board can impose "penalties" for enforcement covenants on the common areas (we are fee simple, and own our lots.)

My question is can the Bylaws give the Board the authority to fine. Especially since the bylaws seem to contradict the enforcement provision in the CC&Rs.

Does anyone know of any case law specifically covering this issue, especially Texas case law.

Thank you
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Teddie,

As you have read, ability to impose monetary damages would come from the governing documents. The strongest place to have this authority would be within the CC&Rs. Some courts may or may not recognize the Bylaws. In Virginia, this issue has been taken through the VA courts and, based on court opinion, it varies by County if an Association may impose monetary penalties or not.

Here are some cases on the topic:

Sarnir R. Farran, et al. v. Olde Belhaven Towne Owners Association Case No. CL-2009-11786 Opinion Letter from 19th Circuit Court of Virginia. Please be aware that this opinion is non-binding and does not establish case law. Even if it did, the case law would only apply to Virginia. Judges in other States would not be required to follow such case law. Portions of this case case (not all of it) hinged on the ability to fine.

Shadowood Condominium Association, et al vs. Fairfax County Redevelopment and Housing Authority From the Supreme Court of Virgina.

Unit Owners Association of Buildamerica-1, A Condominium v. Harry F. Gillman Supreme Court of Virginia. In a quick summary this case had a comment that imposing fines were limited to Governments. Therefore, in Virginia, we now impose monetary penalties.

You can look up the references cited within those cases for more info. However, let me try an summarize everything on what changed based on those cases within VA:

1) Associations no longer impose fines. They do impose charges or monetary penalties (which have the same affect as fines but uses a different name)

2) A law was created to allow Associations to impose such charges for rule violations. This law was changed again to include covenant violations. However, the law still defers to the governing documents.

3) Based on legal challenges and court rulings, depending which County you are in, the location of the authority to impose monetary penalties varies. Some say it must be in the CC&Rs, others say it can be anywhere within the governing documents.

4) The whole issue will boil down to contract law.

Teddie, I am not an attorney and I do not work within the legal profession. If you are considering challenging the imposition of a fine/charge/penalty for an infraction of the covenants or rules, you will need to prove two things: 1) The Bylaws, which authorize fines, are in conflict with the CC&Rs and therefore, the CC&Rs control. 2) The Association exceeded it's authority as outlined in the contract by imposing the fine.

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
Karen

An association which we manage was faced two years ago (and still is) with the same scenario you described. At our request, the Board authorized consultation with an attorney who specializes in HOA matters in the Dallas area. Who knows, perhaps it was the same attorney you quoted.

His guidance was the same as you received, that the association cannot implement a fine structure as one is not explicitly authorized in the By Laws and CC&Rs. His further guidance was that the Governing Documents would have to be amended to include enabling language--the By Law amendment has a lower hurdle number and can be amended using the same numbers of property owners who have to be present or provide a proxy for the annual meeting. Amending the CC&Rs is the challenge, an amendment requires the concurrence of 75% of the homeowners. He did state there is clear language regarding "self-help" projects, such as mowing the lawn of a property owner who is out of compliance then rendering a bill for the services provided--following proper notifications, of course.

What he did recommend is that the Association develop a set of Architectural Guidelines to address ambiguities in the CC&Rs, which was at the core of the original issue. There is language in the CC&Rs which (paraphrasing) allows the Architectural Committee to issue bulletins to all property owners from time to time setting forth architectural guidelines to be applied equally to all property owners. While such Guidelines do not enable the Board to fine a property owner for non compliance, they do provide a very clear set of guidelines for homeowners without the necessity of amending the governing documents. Had such Guidelines been in place, and very clear language published, the association could have pursued the matter in civil court--this was a much more serious issue than an lawn not properly cared for. The Guidelines have been filed with the county clerk and are incorporated into the governing documents of the association.

So, good luck.

As others have said, I am not an attorney, nor do I work in the legal profession. .
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
OP,

if you believe your contract / covenant was violated you may seek redress in a court of law

the world wide web will only ensnare you in its sticky maze of toric ka-ka

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I am not nor do I play a lawyer.

Far be it from me to know VA Laws as does Tim but the more I read, the more it seems to me that VA says an association cannot "fine" but they can have "monetary penalties". Call it what you want but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is still a duck even if you call it a fowl friend.

I do agree that the Covenants must allow for fines/penalties no matter what called.

I also believe if no "penalty/fining" terminology exists that most HOA owners would vote modify the docs to allow such in a NYC minute. Getting 90% to agree to such a change seems like a no brainer. I know I would vote to do so.

Most owners would vote to publically crucify anyone behind in their dues......LOL

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TeddieL on 08/23/2014 6:45 AM
I also live in Texas and after 40 years our HOA Board has decided to start fining. Our CC&Rs do not give the Board the authority to fine, do not even discuss fines. Also, the CC&Rs state under Enforcement that enforcement must be at law or in equity (through the courts.)

However, the Bylaws state that the Board can impose "penalties" for enforcement covenants on the common areas (we are fee simple, and own our lots.)

My question is can the Bylaws give the Board the authority to fine. Especially since the bylaws seem to contradict the enforcement provision in the CC&Rs.

Does anyone know of any case law specifically covering this issue, especially Texas case law.

Thank you

Teddie the devil is in the details. The current Texas HOA statutes appear to give the Board the right to impose fines as long as they jump through the right hoops but I'm not an attorney so one should be consulted. Since you say the HOA is 40 years old the type and incorporation date I believe would come into play: (emphasis added)

Sec. 209.003. APPLICABILITY OF CHAPTER. (a) This chapter applies only to a residential subdivision that is subject to restrictions or provisions in a declaration that authorize the property owners' association to collect regular or special assessments on all or a majority of the property in the subdivision.

(b) Except as otherwise provided by this chapter, this chapter applies only to a property owners' association that requires mandatory membership in the association for all or a majority of the owners of residential property within the subdivision subject to the association's dedicatory instruments.

(c) This chapter applies to a residential property owners' association regardless of whether the entity is designated as a "homeowners' association," "community association," or similar designation in the restrictions or dedicatory instrument.

(d) This chapter does not apply to a condominium development governed by Chapter 82.

(e) The following provisions of this chapter do not apply to a property owners' association that is a mixed-use master association that existed before January 1, 1974, and that does not have the authority under a dedicatory instrument or other governing document to impose fines:

(1) Section 209.005(c);

(2) Section 209.0056;

(3) Section 209.0057;

(4) Section 209.0058;

(5) Section 209.00592; and

(6) Section 209.0062.

You can read the whole statute at: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PR/htm/PR.209.htm

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
TerryH4 (Texas)
Posts: 7
Posted:
From the description, I believe I may have been a member of the Texas POA board of directors which passed a resolution creating the fine policy being discussed here. I opposed the policy due to the weak legal foundation.

My experience with POA attorneys is that they will bend over backwards to create legal justification for BOD policies. The attorney wins either way. If the policy isn't challenged, he'll make money through enforcement. If the policy is challenged in court, he'll reap a bonanza of legal fees, even if he loses.

We were given two legal rationales. One was that the BOD may fine for covenant violations on the homeowner's lot, because our CC&Rs explicitly allow fines for common area rules violations, but don't forbid fines for violations on lots. This argument could be used to justify any POA intrusion onto private lots unless there is an explicit prohibition against BOD action.

Second, the attorneys interpreted this Texas statute as empowering the POA to fine:

Sec. 204.010(21) "[A Texas POA may] exercise other powers necessary and proper for the governance and operation of the property owners' association."

This general empowerment language is used throughout Texas corporate law, including private businesses (presumably justifying any business creating a fine policy, if you believe this BOD's interpretation).

Our fine policy was shot down some years later by a different attorney from the same firm that wrote the original pro-fine opinion. He is author of the book "Texas Homeowners Association Law - The Essential Legal Guide for Texas Homeowners Associations and Homeowners". In it, he is clear that Texas POAs may not fine unless explicitly empowered to do so by the CC&Rs. A board resolution is not sufficient.

It's noteworthy that Texas condo associations are explicitly empowered by the state to fine. Since their empowerment language is otherwise similar to POAs, one wonders why the state would pass a redundant statute, if, as our POA argues, the authority to fine exists without it.
TerryH4 (Texas)
Posts: 7
Posted:
I should've clarified that our POA retains its fine policy, even though its latest legal opinion is from an attorney who has published the definitive work on Texas POA law, who directly repudiated the prior pro-fine opinion from his own legal firm. What's more, this attorney lives in our POA, and a former BOD president.

All this, and his opinion was still ignored.

A separate, equally onerous resolution passed while I was a BOD member, required renters to provide the names and contact information of every person living in the house. I voted against this one as well.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Heck Terry that information is required by statute for Ohio COA's.

5311.09 Unit owners association records.

(2) Within thirty days after a unit owner obtains a condominium ownership interest, the unit owner shall provide the following information in writing to the unit owners association through the board of directors:

(a) The home address, home and business mailing addresses, and the home and business telephone numbers of the unit owner and all occupants of the unit;

(b) The name, business address, and business telephone number of any person who manages the owner's unit as an agent of that owner.

(3) Within thirty days after a change in any information that division (A)(2) of this section requires, a unit owner shall notify the association, through the board of directors, in writing of the change. When the board of directors requests, a unit owner shall verify or update the information.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
TerryH4 (Texas)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Glen,

Our POA has no CC&R nor statutory authority like you describe. I don't know about Texas COAs.
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 08/23/2014 12:48 PM
I am not nor do I play a lawyer.

Far be it from me to know VA Laws as does Tim but the more I read, the more it seems to me that VA says an association cannot "fine" but they can have "monetary penalties". Call it what you want but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is still a duck even if you call it a fowl friend.

I do agree that the Covenants must allow for fines/penalties no matter what called.

I also believe if no "penalty/fining" terminology exists that most HOA owners would vote modify the docs to allow such in a NYC minute. Getting 90% to agree to such a change seems like a no brainer. I know I would vote to do so.

Most owners would vote to publically crucify anyone behind in their dues......LOL


After trying to get a few amendments changed recently, nothing is a no brainer, you have the people who can't vote because they haven't paid their fines as well as the few people who ignore HOA, but pay their dues. So if you have an HOA that requires 90%, you would most likely be SOL because of the very people who aren't paying. Which is what happened to us.

So here's a question stemming from that, if you require 90% to change, is it 90% of current payees?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CyrstalB on 08/25/2014 5:30 AM

So here's a question stemming from that, if you require 90% to change, is it 90% of current payees?

Depends on the wording/language used. For example:

100 members, 5 have voting privileges suspended, 60 people attend meeting, 50 votes cast with40 vote yea 10 nay:

90% of membership = 90 yea votes required (100 members multiplied by .9)
90% of members in attendance = 54 yea votes required (60 multiplied by .9)
90% of votes cast = 45 yea votes required (50 multiplied by .9)
90% of eligible votes = 86 yea votes required (100 minus 5 multiplied by .9 rounded up)

As we all know, the devil is in the details. In this case, the details is the language used.
Typically, the CC&Rs require x% of the membership to amend.
TerryH4 (Texas)
Posts: 7
Posted:
If a quorum of five BOD members can, by an unannounced 3-2 vote, enact policies that have no explicit statutory nor CC&R basis, but which claim a right to members' money and private information, then that BOD possesses almost unlimited authority over lot owners.

Courts have not been kind to POAs that claim this sort of implied powers. With the BOD's own legal advice now turned against implied powers, mounting damages may eventually attract a class action attorney. That would the worst of possible positive outcomes.

Despite my opposition, I realize the people who enacted the fine policy had what they believed to be the best interests of the neighborhood heart. But now, with the weight of court and attorney opinion consistently against BODs creating powers for themselves, the fine resolution has become a ticking time bomb, one that becomes more likely to explode as more fines are levied.
TeddieL (Texas)
Posts: 13
Posted:
Would you happen to know why the "original pro fine attorney" author of Texas HOA Law changes his position on fins an states in the 2nd edition of his book that POCs may not fine unless explicitly empowered to do so in the CC&Rs?

Is there some new appellate case law on this issue?

Or, do you know how I would find out.

Thank you
TeddieL (Texas)
Posts: 13
Posted:
I am very interested in your statement "with the weight of court and attorney opinion consistently against BODs creating powers for themselves...."

We are involved in a prolonged lawsuit with out HOA. The legal fees are near 200K and rising. (we are the plaintiffs) The defendants (HOA) attorney, after 2.5 years just asked for a continuance, to redepose us, to depose our expert/engineer witnesses, and entered a MSJ to dismiss the entire case. Just to drag this out and change more to the HOA's insurance company and break us financially and break our health. It is all about breaking us----we are retired, getting older, and this is eating into our retirement accounts. (Still working at 75 just to pay attorneys.)

I really thought that right would win, then when we went to mediation last month, the mediator, a retired judge, pushed us to settle stating this could be as good as it gets, they will ask (and probably get) continuance after continuance, they will break you, etc.

We started braketing in the mediation, and my husband was so upset from the pressure (after 8 hours)that he was going to agree to 80K for attorney fees (100K short of what we had paid to date) and NOTHING but a promise for damages---when they get around to it in the next five years. But then, at 4:00 pm (time to leave)---they quit braketing and just offered 45K. My husband threw up his hands, said an obscenity, and finally said no. The way I see it, the attorneys (who were running the show)never had any intention of settling. (the law firm representing the HOA is known for this---the largest HOA/CAI law firms in Texas---founding member is on the Board of the lobbying arm of the CAI.)

Anyway, it is so obvious that this is financial warfare and a hope that they can kill off 75 years olds, that this is horrendous. But they keep getting away with it and I am getting scared---especially after the mediator/judge gave us his lectures.

So, any information you might give me on your statement (especially specific cases)would be most appreciated.

Thank you
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Teddie,

Typically, if the attorney's are delaying and playing financial warfare (as you worded it), it's likely that you could win when it goes to court and the opposing attorney knows this. However, if you drop the issue before it goes to court, then who won/lost is never decided.

That said, it is always a 50/50 chance when you enter a court room.

The Texas State Law Library reference librarians have compiled legal research guides for specific areas of the law. These guides contain resources that can help you research a legal issue. Here is a link from the American Association of Law Libraries on How to Research a Legal Problem: A Guide for Non-Lawyers.

From this website, (click link: If you have any questions, please contact the reference librarians at (512) 463-1722 or at [email protected].

TeddieL (Texas)
Posts: 13
Posted:
I have another question. Why don't HOA insurance companies put more pressure to settle and lower costs on the attorneys they pay to represent the HOA in lawsuits.

In our case, we are the plaintiffs against our HOA. (I have been told by many impartial observers that we have a very good case.)

This case is being drug out for years by the HOA/insurance company's law firm---costing the law firm probably thousands and thousands of dollars (even though there is a negotiated and lower fee for the insurance company---I think under 100.00 per hour.)

Instead of settling for very little at the beginning of the case, the HOA/insurance law firm keeps dragging the case out. We are now at the 2.5 year. And the HOA/insurance law firm has just asked for a continuance from the Oct 2014 trial date we are coming up on. The HOA/insurnace law firm is also asking for additional useless (but expensive) depositions on us plus on our expert engineers, etc. (Cachink! Cachink!)

I can see why the HOA/insurance company's law firm would want to keep this going-----MONEY! However, why doesn't the insurance company, which is writing the checks to the HOA/insurance company's law firm wise up and put an end to the waste of their money?

What am I missing here?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TeddieL on 08/26/2014 5:40 AM

What am I missing here?

Insurance companies do not hire firms. They have attorney's on staff who are getting paid a salary. Therefore, it really doesn't cost an Insurance company anything to delay a case.
TeddieL (Texas)
Posts: 13
Posted:
Actually, in our lawsuit against our HOA, the insurance carriers who are picking up the legal defense costs have an agreement/contract with the largest CAI/HOA law firm in Texas to handle the defense of their clients/insured who are sued.

This agreement/contract includes a reduced hourly rate (much less than what we have to pay our attorney---about 65% less than what we pay our attorney.

I believe this is common practice throughout the industry.

The 2 insurance carriers in our case are larger insurance carriers, Travelers and Scottsdale. One handles the commercial liability policy and the other handles the D&O insurance.

Our attorney has stated that, possibly, the law firm has to increase their billable hours because they have negotiated for such a low hourly rate.
TerryH4 (Texas)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Teddie,

I may know the large law firm you're speaking of. We hired them when I was one the BOD. I found their legal opinions the most logically vacuous I've ever seen. Of the half dozen firms we retained at various times and for different actions, this firm was by far the most logically flaccid and unprofessional. We fired them.

On the legal opinions I alluded to. while I don't recall the exact opinions, I do remember how I found them. I used Google, entering these phrases(including quotes) for my basic search:

"texas court of appeals"
"owners association" (this catches both HOA and POA rulings)
"board of directors"

Those phrases yield this search: http://bit.ly/1taAvwl

Adding other words and phrases will refine the search as necessary, e.g. covenant, enforcement, fees, assessments.

One ruling (turned up by the search above) that might be of interest is HODAS v. SCENIC OAKS PROPERTY ASSOCIATION. There, the appellate court shot down a POA trying to overstep CC&R language.

I found no case where any court of appeals sided with POAs acting outside the explicit language of the CC&Rs
TerryH4 (Texas)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Teddie,

Our POA defeated a Fortune 500 company famous for senseless environmental destruction around the world. They wanted to do the same thing next door to our neighborhood. They were represented by an international law firm, one of the oldest in the nation. Besides our board, we had a highly competent but small environmental law firm and a respected water quality engineering firm. In the beginning, the big corp refused all our demands. In the end, they gave in to them all, and paid for our attorneys and engineers fees.

The key to the win was to find something important to them, and to devise a strategy to put that at risk. In their case, we made them believe we were willing to empty the POA coffers to take them to civil court. We made them believe we were radicals, willing to spend ourselves into a hole to get our way. We passed a resolution authorizing a massive legal budget for the fight. But we agreed among ourselves, under the table, that we would never spend this money. It was a bluff. It worked. They foresaw a threat to their development timetable that might cost them hundreds of millions. So they settled.

I the end, the delay we caused pushed their project start date into the global drecession, which forced them to put their plans on hold anyway. They're now 7 years behind schedule. If they do restart their plans, it will be with the strongest environmental controls of their type in Texas.

In your case, your HOA law firm is targeting your time and bank account. You need to look at your board members and see what you can do to put at risk either HOA programs they want or use, or possibly even threaten their statutory immunity. Does your BOD have any age or familial discriminatory policies that might make them vulnerable to a fair housing action (the govt will usually provide fair housing attorney free of charge). Make your BOD members 'waste" all their volunteer time dealing with you, and make a fair settlement your price for disappearing

Get your neighbors on your side. Hand out flyers at you board and annual meetings.

You also need to consider carefully the words of the arbiter. But don't let the BOD know this.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Teddie

What does your law suit concern?

Thanks
TeddieL (Texas)
Posts: 13
Posted:
Our Petition covers: 1. Breach of Contract; 2. Tortious Interference with Property Rights; 3. Breach of Fiduciary Duty; 4. Contort for Negligence & Gross Negligence; 5. Abuse of Process; 6. Malicious Civil Prosecution and a few other things.

That being said,
Breach of Contract is for breaching the declaration and exceeding the scope of their authority (fining when not in CC&Rs, etc.)

Tortious interference is for not taking care of property and demanding that we not take care of property either. We could not sell our property because roofs and walls were not repaired (pay 400.00 per month plus special assessments for these services), and other things.

Breach of Fiduciary Duty was for HOA holding themselves as a condominium and imposing condominium rules when, in fact, these are fee simple properties---but when the HOA was asked to do something--their response---oh we are fee simple and we don't owe you anything. Financials were ridiculous. Financials handed out at yearly meetings were materially different from the audited financials. FY2012 audited financials made the statement "there is no known litigation or pending litigation---even though lawsuit was filed and there was an MSJ stating that HOA had a fiduciary responsibility (audit firm is now under Texas AICPA peer review for making this statement in the 2012 audit report) HOA has not had a FY2013 audit even though this is listed as one of the treasurer's duties in the bylaws. and many other reasons.

Contort for negligence and gross negligence

Abuse or process: sued us for installing a satellite dish.

Malicious civil prosecution. tried to have me arrested for asking for sprinkler system to be repaired. (everything i asked for sprinkler system to be repaired, the board president would call the police. the police would come out and tell the board president to stop calling them. Then the president called in a police report, where the police did not come out. Then the president went down to the police station and got a copy of the police report and walked the report over to the DAs office and had me charged with a class C misdemeanor. I received a notice in the mail to show up at court. When I showed up at court, with my lawyer, the president did not show up. Case was dismissed.

and much much much much more---like our walls literally falling in because roofs had not been replaced----but board members roofs were replaced. we had a hole, 2 by 4 feet, to the outside in our master bedroom wall for nearly a year because the walls studs and siding were literally eaten away by termites and carpenter ants because of rain that had leaked in---between the walls---for over 12 years that I know of because flashing was not installed when the roofs were redone. when this was pointed out the the board, there answer was, which was their standard answer was this is a neighbor to neighbor responsibility.

Anyway, yesterday was the court hearing for the request for continuance. A 3 week continuance was granted because opposing council (he) is having his first baby. But, I am very happy with 3 weeks.
Also, yesterday a deposition was granted on myself and Bill on 2 subject areas----property damage and my statement to a neighbor that the HOA insurance company had issued an ROR (which they had). Opposing council is stating that this was discussed in mediation and this is privileged info. Discussing this issue with a neighbor is neither privileged nor was it even discussed in mediation. (but they asked to re-depose on 4 issues for 4 hours and only got 2 for 2 hours.) So I am happy with this, plus I am anxious to discuss damage assessments since I recently discovered that the HOA has not cleaned out the storm drains on the common area ever---which caused the flooding in the garage which caused all the walls and studs to rot, which caused the walls to compress, which caused structural issues to the roof.

There is a lot more, but your eyes are probably getting tired by now.

Please let me know if you have any further comments or questions. Very appreciated.

TeddieL (Texas)
Posts: 13
Posted:
Like your strategy.

One things our attorney has done is ask that the board to be placed in receivership. The Board is very upset about this. The Board states: the receivership will be expensive (it will); the Board will have no power (it won't).
TeddieL (Texas)
Posts: 13
Posted:
I loved your terms logically vacuous and logically flaccid & unprofessional. I looked up 2 of this law firms cites in the their Petition for Traditional and No Evidence Motions for Interlocutory Summary Judgment. The cites had nothing to do with the points of law the law firm was claiming. It was a joke. I wonder when does a lawyer step over the line into incompetence.

Thank you for the tips on case law regarding ACC limits. My next Flying Fickle Finger of Fate Newsletter to residents is going to be on this topic.

Recently, one resident was told she could not put a cover on her interior patio. However, the HOA president, not only has a cover on her interior patio, but has also converted her interior patio into a totally enclosed structure with AC and heating. (what is fair for the goose is not necessarily fair for the gander?)

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