service dog?

Started by MissyS • 27 replies • 7617 views

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MissyS (Florida)
Posts: 73

Posted:

Our association has a 25 pound pet restriction. An owner rented their unit to a family with a dog over the limit. After the owner received the violation, they said they didn’t know about the rule. They wanted to know if they could get a waiver if the tenant got a note from his doctor. The tenant who is on disability got a prescription from his doctor stating “it is in the best interest of my patient to keep his pet with him”. The dog does not fall under the ADA definition of service dog. The dog is very old and the tenant had the dog prior to his accident.

I’m angry that the owner who should have known better has put the association and their tenant in this position. My concern is that anyone wanting to circumvent this rule can simply get a note from their doctor that they need the pet for emotional support.

Not sure how to handle this situation. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

CrystalK1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 30

Posted:

ADA is pretty clear. A note from a doctor does not confer "service dog" status.

I'm not an expert is this area but have some knowledge of state and federal rules about service animals and service animals in training. My family raise puppies for Leader Dogs for the Blind in Michigan.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

You can ask two questions:

Is this a service animal?
What is it trained to do?

A doctor's note, prescription, fancy certificate from some organization, etc. mean nothing. There is no agency or body that provides any kind of legal "certification" for an animal as a service animal. There's plenty of places that will take your money and give you one, however.

Bottom line, ask your two questions. If the answer is not valid, in your own REASONABLE opinion, you can deny it, and let the person take you/hoa to court. I do say again, REASONABLE opinion. You can't deny if the animal is trained, behaved, and provides a reasonable service (epilepsy monitor, blindness, hearing, walking/balance assistance), just because you don't like a person or because they were late with their dues, or yelled at your kids, or...

However, you can deny if the dog is touted as a "stress relief" or "anxiety" animal. The government calls those particular dogs "pets".

make sure your reasons/data/evidence is logical, reasonable, and documented. As you say, if this dog was there before the "disability" and is not doing anything besides 'providing comfort' and is not trained to do any actual service, it's a pet.

(all that said, i think pet weight restrictions are silly myself, but... it's a rule, so it should be enforced or removed. as long as it's there, enforce it).

CarolF (Florida)
Posts: 435

Posted:

Brian and others.........you might want to google "emotional support service dogs" or "emotional support dogs".

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Sounds like a scam to avoid the limitations set in your documents. IMO the OWNER would be in violation. And I would follow you guidelines to enforce your rules.

We had a young woman rent a unit with her dog. The owner who is an idiot never bothered to explain she was not permited to have an animal. Long story short when the violations were sent and the fines began the tenents Father who worked for the federal governemn threatned o make a federal case out of violating his daughter's rights to have a emotional service animal. Our response do whatever you feel necessary. Shortly thereafter the woman moved out dog and all.

If you are blind a seeing eye dog is required. If you have mobility troubles perhaps a service dog that can assit you is warranted. But lets be real most doctors will write a note on their prescripion pad to validate the NEED for an animal. Which in the real world means NOTHING.

Just another situation when you have people willing to work the system because they think getting what they want justifies lying or making false claims. Yes there are people with real disabilites and there are fakes and frauds lets hope the Board can determine the difference.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I have to agree with JonD. This is the OWNER's responsibility and NOT the HOA's to enforce. The HOA should have a fining schedule in place in order to enforce a fine against such activities. Your documents may state your HOA can levy fines but what for has to be defined. Many states don't allow fines to be the basis of liens or foreclosures. You also have to factor in that the HOA can't enforce the rules onto the Renters. They can only go after the owner who is responsible.

My opinion on animal restrictions is that it's best left up to the professionals. That is animal control. It's NOT a HOA thing. That's just me as I couldn't imagine removing a pet from someone's home unless it has a history of violence and proven. Dog crap washes off the grass in the rain, dog bites are forever...

Former HOA President

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarolF on 02/15/2013 12:52 PM
Brian and others.........you might want to google "emotional support service dogs" or "emotional support dogs".

Thank you, I did. However, I added the word ADA to the search, and from the ADA's own website..

"Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA."

There are dogs trained to provide a service for some people with PTSD, Trauma, etc., but they are TRAINED and provide an actual service (they alert, they notify others, they seek help, etc.) for people with a trauma/PTSD condition. A dog that you pet to calm yourself, lower your blood pressure, etc. is NOT a service animal.

There is a caveat to the ADA law: the FHA also has rules about service animals, and they are slightly different than the ADA (thank you, wonderful government agencies, for making completely different rules for the very same thing). So, it is worth your work to determine which jurisdiction your HOA falls under, and use their definition.

AnitaC1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 18

Posted:

Our association is having a similar situation except…..these 2 people have 3 “service animals”. 2 of them were “certified” AFTER a letter from out attorney asking to have them removed from the premises.

There is the online “certification” of these service animals, and also online medical assessment as to the need for this animal. I would not think an online prescription would hold up in a court. Good luck with this.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

The this is a service animal "scam" has been pulled by many when their pet(s) vioated association rules.

Stick to you guns.

Start fining the owner, not the renter as the owner allowed this to happen either thru negligence or neglect.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Some info I found that may be applicable. In my opinion, it may be an uphill battle on this one.

Neither the FHAct, Section 504, nor HUD's implementing regulations contain a specific
definition of the term "service animal." However, species other than dogs, with or without training, and animals that provide emotional support have been recognized as necessary assistance animals under the reasonable accommodation provisions of the FHAct and Section 504
http://www.mvfairhousing.com/pdfs/2011-02-17%20HUD%20memo%20on%20new%20ADA%20regulations%20on%20assistance%20animals.PDF

HUD's position allowing an expansive definition of assistance animal has been supported by its administrative decisions in this area. [FN225] In many situations, tenants have been successful in arguing that there should be a waiver of a no-pet rule in order for the tenant to be able to retain an *1196 assistance animal--even if the animal does not appear to have been trained to perform specific tasks
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/arus37pepplrev1163.htm

The Fair Housing Act does not define "service animal" per se, and does not make a distinction among certified service animals, non-certified animals, animals that provide psychological support, and service animals in training that live with the people with disabilities for whom they will work. The Act does not have restrictions about who may train the animal. However, the Act recognizes that service animals are necessary for the individuals with disabilities who have them, and as such does not categorize service animals as "pets.” Service animals, then, cannot be subjected to "pet rules" that may be applied by housing
providers to companion (non service) animals. Housing providers cannot, for example, impose upon service animals the size or weight restrictions of a pet rule, exclusions from areas where people are generally welcome, or access restrictions to only a particular door or elevator. Further, special tags, equipment,
"certification or special identification of service animals cannot be required. Judith Keeler, Director, U.S. Dept. of HUD, Northwest Alaska Area Fair, Housing Enforcement Center, states that it is HUD's position that no deposit may be charged for the service animal.

The Act does not specifically limit the number of service animals an individual with a disability may have.

Requests for multiple service animals may be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. It is possible that housing providers may impose limitations if it can be demonstrated that an individual's request for reasonable accommodation exceeds what is necessary for that person to have full use and enjoyment of the premises.

Individuals with disabilities may request other reasonable accommodations regarding their service animals. For example, a person with mobility impairment may find it difficult to walk a service dog. He and the landlord might work together to identify a mutually agreeable, and accessible, area of the property on which
the dog can relieve itself.

HUD's "Pets in Elderly Housing" regulation, often referred to as the "Pet Rule," was enacted in 1986, revised in 1996 and again in 1999. It applies to federally assisted rental housing designated exclusively for residency by those 62 years of age or older or people with disabilities. It not only protects the rights of individuals with disabilities to have service animals, but also allows all
residents of most federally funded housing to have pets (companion or non-service animals).
Landlords may have "reasonable" pet policies, which might include size restrictions, for these pets. One of the types of housing that this rule does not cover is Section 8 housing, which is covered by the Fair Housing Act. Section 8 housing has no requirements for landlords to permit pets (nonservice animals).

http://2012.servicedogsfl.org/brochures/ServiceAnimalsHousing.pdf

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Kevin,

I noticed that none of the websites you quoted were official government sites; they are all .com, .info, or .org sites. The material is therefore suspect in that we do not have the source and what has been cited may be quoted out of context.

"The problem with the Internet is that anyone may claim to be someone he is not." Abraham Lincoln.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Understandably so but it is food for thought. The board should consult with an attorney knowledgeable of these laws and regulations before acting. I would imagine a discrimination lawsuit would be costlier then following the various rules of a variety of agencies and laws.

I am still trying to find something a bit more concrete.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

HUD "pet rule" : http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/FINALRULE/Pet_Ownership_Final_Rule.pdf

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Neither the FHAct, Section 504, nor HUD's implementing regulations contain a specific definition of the term "service animal." However, species other than dogs, with or without training, and animals that provide emotional support have been recognized as necessary assistance animals under the reasonable accommodation provisions of the FHAct and Section 504. The new ADA regulation does not change this FHAct/Section 504 analysis, and specifically notes, "nder the FHAct, an individual with a disability may have the right to have an animal other than a dog in his or her home if the animal qualifies as a 'reasonable accommodation' that
is necessary to afford the individual equal opportunity to use and enjoy a
dwelling, assuming that the animal does not pose a direct threat."
2
In addition, the preambles to the new rules state that emotional support animals do not qualify as service animals under the ADA but may "nevertheless qualify as permitted reasonable accommodations for persons with disabilities under the FHAct."
3

http://www.hum.wa.gov/ServiceAnimals/service%20animal%20memo%20final%20(x).pdf

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Sorry about the poor formatting. Copying from a pdf is a pain in the rear.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 02/16/2013 4:03 PM
K"The problem with the Internet is that anyone may claim to be someone he is not." Abraham Lincoln.

Really? I thought it was George Washington who said that.

And, after all, according to a well-known insurance company's ad that's been on TV recently, they can't put anything on the internet that isn't true.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

And I am a French model. Bonjour!

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Kevin,

It appears then that ADA does not recognize an emotional support animal but FHA does. So you cannot take your pitbull to work but you can leave him alone in your apartment all day.

In any action where the occupant claims that the dog is an emotional support animal, the association/landlord need prove only that the dog violates the pet restrictions. The burden will fall on the occupant to prove that the dog is medically necessary. This means the occupant will need to provide a flesh-and-blood witness with proper credentials to testify and be cross-examined. I doubt that too many professionals are willing to risk their licenses by giving false testimony and I doubt that too many defendants would be willing to accept the burden of trying to prove their cases.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

a note from the doctor is meaningless. In my job, I see "doctor's note", prescriptions, even doctor's orders, that are absolutely arsenine. Far too many doctors will write anything a person asks for*, if it means that person gets out of their office.

I love the idea of holding their feet to the fire with an actual hearing, attending a hearing, board meeting, etc.. When the discomfort of covering for the person becomes more than the discomfort of doing what they ask, then the true colors of the Doc will become apparent.

*had a doctor's ORDER that stated "X's job is stressful, employer needs to transfer X to alternate job or position."

AnitaC1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 18

Posted:

Why go through all the trouble of making an appointment and sitting around all day in a DR office. When you too, can be diagnosed with a mental disorder right in the comfort of your own home. (cant you see the person wiping their brow from so much trouble)

http://www.cptas.com/pk.html

Emotional Disability Assessment and Letter of Prescription: $114

The Letter of Prescription: Based on the diagnosis and assessment, a letter of prescription for an emotional support animal will be written as a form of prescriptive treatment.

The specific procedures employed by Chilhowee Psychological Services are tailored to the particular purposes of the evaluation, and may include one or more of the following components, all using our online system:

•Psychometric testing
•Clinical interview questions to collect background information and assess current functioning
•Collateral information (e.g., from other health care providers or family members), when available
•Review of file information provided by the client and/or referring agency, when available

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

And you can be certain that the internet quack will be there in court to testify under oath for you just as soon as you can figure out how to serve a subpoena over the web.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BrianB on 02/17/2013 11:48 AM
had a doctor's ORDER that stated "X's job is stressful, employer needs to transfer X to alternate job or position."

Dear X:

All our jobs are stressful so you are hereby transferred to the unemployment office where you may seek a less stressful position.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

WAIT...WAIT....

Send me only $99.99 for a Certificate. You will also receive a 20% discount if you include the code word....Marguerita.....

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 02/17/2013 10:47 AM
Kevin,

It appears then that ADA does not recognize an emotional support animal but FHA does. So you cannot take your pitbull to work but you can leave him alone in your apartment all day.

In any action where the occupant claims that the dog is an emotional support animal, the association/landlord need prove only that the dog violates the pet restrictions. The burden will fall on the occupant to prove that the dog is medically necessary. This means the occupant will need to provide a flesh-and-blood witness with proper credentials to testify and be cross-examined. I doubt that too many professionals are willing to risk their licenses by giving false testimony and I doubt that too many defendants would be willing to accept the burden of trying to prove their cases.

I find issue with the burden being placed solely on the resident. The resident obviously must offer some proof - in this case a doctors letter. I do find that HOA while having their rules must take more measures to insure they are not violating some law or regulation. Dragging the resident in front of a tribunal to scare them into submission is the wrong way to go - especially if the animal is a stress relief animal. One would also have to consider if it is within the HOA's authority to demand someone prove their illness. Could you imagine this flying if the HOA didn't believe a handicapped person couldn't walk so requested them and their doctors into a hearing asking for proof of immobility?

CrystalK1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 30

Posted:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/02/16/therapy-dogs-calm-people-under-stress/1925293/

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

It's been known for decades that the simple act of petting an animal (tends to) lowers blood pressure.

Got stress? pet your dog. Your blood pressure will lower. Your stress levels will decrease.

That's a pet.

Being petted, wanting to be petted, allowing someone to pet you is NOT training, it's instinctual to an animal. That's pretty much why the ADA states that "stress relief" and "therapy dogs" are pets. They aren't trained, they are just pets.

A Therapy dog is TRAINED. They are trained to sit, wait to be approached, not like, not jump, move slowly and calmly, lie down, stay, etc.. They know their roles, their duties. In fact, a trained dog knows when it's working and when it isn't.

I have no problems with therapy animals, if they are trained to perform a service. I support an organization that takes therapy animals to nursing homes and children's hospitals. They get money from me every year to do their good work.

However, claiming stress and saying your dog makes it all better does NOT make it a therapy animal. It's a pet. Saying you should get to take your dog everywhere you go doesn't make it a service animal, it makes you a self-centered pretentious snowflake.

I work with dogs training to be service animals, I see selfish snowflakes with their "i am above the rules of you" attitudes, and I can tell you that real service animals can be spotted in about ten seconds or less, simply by their demeanor, training and handling. i have a "pet" and I have a puppy in training both, and while I love them equally, I can tell you that our pet, while well trained, would never be mistaken for our puppy in training. His attitude, poise, demeanor, actions, etc. while in his vest are instantly recognizable as such. When he's not in his harness, he's about as regular a puppy as you can get. But as soon as he starts working, he's a different dog.

AnitaC1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 18

Posted:

In our situation the obvious chronological order is enough to question any disability:

Our bylaws allow 1 dog under 30 lbs….

March last year….Resident has pet that he allows to run off leash and he refuses to pick up after it. (This began the animosity)

June - Resident began to leash and walk dog off property.

Aug/Sept - He allows a roommate to move in. She has a dog under 30 lbs.

Sept/Oct - HOA sends letter requesting the removal of second dog. Resident states he will not abide by arcane and oppressive bylaws. (yes…those words)

November - She brings her pit bull in.

Jan - HOA lawyer writes letter requesting 2 dogs be removed.

Feb 17 - As of 1 (one) pet class yesterday all dogs are now “service animals”.

We feel she moved in, in “hostile” manner. Resident knew, and she knew, these dogs were not allowed. IF she needed 2 service animals she needed them before the lawyer sent a letter, not after. If she needs these 2 service animals does she not need them during the day? Does she not need them when she is out? Why must I, a homeowner, listen to her pit bark ALL DAY LONG! At what point is my comfort any less than hers. I’m not breaking bylaws. If indeed these are service animals she needs to take them to work with her. We will see how “service” they are when her boss says “leave those barking, ill mannered DOGS at home”. Service or not…they are a nuisance. If in fact they are service animals I can’t sit on my patio without the incessant barking of her dog, because of her disability.

You see the gentle golden retriever on a hospital bed comforting a sick person, or cat wondering around a nursing home. These are not that kind of “therapy animals” I have been a dog owner for all but a few years of my life. I have cried and laughed with mine, but I did abide by rules. If they weren’t welcome we found somewhere else to go.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

Anita:

what is this woman's disability? A service animal goes with a disability.
What is this animal trained to do? A service animal MUST BE TRAINED to provide a service.

If the owner is not maintaining control of her animal, service or not, that animal can be removed. Contact the local animal control.

From the Fair Housing act:
Rights of Housing Providers

Individuals with disabilities are solely responsible for the conduct of their service animals, and housing providers may have recourse available if the tenant fails to satisfy this obligation. For example, a housing provider may require payment for damages (such as chewed carpeting), or insist that a service animal be prevented from repeated barking that disturbs neighbors. However, a housing provider may first be obligated to attempt resolution of the problem before eviction proceedings are initiated. Complaints about a service animal must be substantiated and not based on speculation.

so, start substantiating. Get a recorder, take dates and time.

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