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ParkerJ (Virginia)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Have an issue I am hoping others may have dealt with that concerns equitable charges assessed to members of an HOA. Ours is a small, 18-home HOA with no common areas such as parks, clubhouses, pools etc. 12 of the 18 houses are located on a private road that the HOA must maintain. The other 6 are on main county roads, have no access to the private road from their lots, and are not even visible from the private road. Since there are no common areas other than that road for the 12, all HOA assessments effectively go to cover maintenance, snow clearing and landscaping for the road. The HOA Covenants say all homeowners must equally pay for the road. Virginia law, however, says a homeowner may not be charged fees that are not used for the common area, and the common area is not specifically defined to include the road in the Covenants. Question: should the 6 houses which have nothing to do with the road have to pay equal shares for its maintenance? My view is that they essentially are paying other people's bills for them.

Many thanks for any thoughts. This is a VERY contentious issue!
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Parker,

Sorry, just because someone doesn't use the pool, playground, road, etc. doesn't mean it's not available for you to use. If the CC&Rs require the road to be maintained, then it is considered to be common area and thus, expenditure of the funds would be in compliance with VA law. You would have the same right to use that road as they do to use the road in front of your property. Choosing to use the road or not isn't relevant to the requirement that the Association maintains it.

There are some CC&Rs, especially in lake front communities, where it specifies that some lots are charged x more than the other lots. However, if your CC&Rs do not specify this then the Association must comply with the CC&Rs.

If you believe that this is unfair, then you could draft an amendment to your CC&Rs and solicit membership signatures on a petition to call for a special meeting of the membership to vote on your proposed amendment.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
My personal view is expenses should be equally split among all owners. Kind of like saying well we do not use the common area park, or we only have one car so we create less wear and tear on the roads then those with more cars, etc. so we should be charged less.

I want one from Column A, two from Column B, and none from Column C.....LOL

ParkerJ (Virginia)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Hmmm...I certainly see your point(s). My view was just that this was not analogous to a pool that you could "choose" to use or not use. This is how the houses were constructed, and a third of them have nothing to do with the private road. There's no reason for the 6 to ever go near it. It's really like the 12 on the road are a separate development. But I take your point that it would probably win before a judge that, whether specified or not, the road would be seen as "common." Though perhpas the other 6 should get their own development signs to be put in front of their houses, since the 12 get a big entrance sign (there's nothing that would tie the other 6 to the HOA, visually or geographically).

Sadly, drafting a change will not help. 12 will outvote 6 everytime, and the 12 are essentially getting $6000 a year to pay their personal bills. This is the problem when developers get to write the rules, and then they are written in stone.
ParkerJ (Virginia)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Tim, I should also make clear that the roads in front of the 6 houses are NOT private roads, they are state roads that are main thoroughfares open to all the public.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
>The HOA Covenants say all homeowners must equally pay for the road.

You need to follow the covenants until they are changed- either by you or

>Virginia law, however, says a homeowner may not be charged fees that are not used for the common area,

wait until a homeowner mounts a successful legal challenge.

>the common area is not specifically defined to include the road in the Covenants.

Is it specifically defined as something else?

ParkerJ (Virginia)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Fred, I think it's clear legality is on the side of the road being a common area. No specific areas are identified as common area in the CCRs, just that they are all areas owned, leased or maintained by the HOA for common use and enjoyment for all. Since the road is specifically mentioned elsewhere that it must be maintained, I guess that qualifies it. I would question whether the road truly is for "common use and enjoyment" if it is completely irrelevant to some homeowners and provides them zero benefits or services, but that is getting into fairness vice legalities.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ParkerJ on 02/07/2013 8:43 AM

Virginia law, however, says a homeowner may not be charged fees that are not used for the common area

So who pays for the association's insurance, since insurance is not a common area? How about the costs of mailing out notices, especially those required by law?

Does the road for the 12 houses lie on deeded property or is it on easements? Are there dedications in either the deeds or the plat that limit who may use the road?

My association has about 300 miles of dirt roads we maintain and most of our assessments go toward road maintenance. We have owners who say they should pay less because they are closer to the public roads. Others who claim they never visit their property so they should not have to pay at all. Part-time residents say they should pay less than full-timers. One guy claims he only rides a bicycle. We have 1600 owners and each one can give you a valid reason why he should not have to pay the full amount he is assessed, which is currently $3.30 per acre per year.

Most of this is just a variation on the age-old argument that because I have no kids in public schools I should not have to pay school taxes.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It looks like the consesus is that the HOA is already doing the assessment fairly and equally. Just because a few people don't like it doesn't mean it's not fair or equal. Half my membership never used the pool or clubhouse but it was covered in their dues.

How much difference would it make anyways if you subtracted the portion from the dues? You have to consider that if those 6 people subtract that cost from their dues then that amount will DOUBLE for those others who do live on the maintained road. Do you think that would be fair to those members?

A HOA is ONLY funded by it's members FOR it's members. Which means you all share the expenses equally (Unless dicated otherwise in the documents) no matter if you use them or not. Heck just drive up and down that road a few times to get your monies worth if it's just a use issue...Otherwise, it's just the way it works...

Former HOA President
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Sadly this is another example of HOA abuse, I'm sure the developer gathered six random couples together and forced them to buy these properties. He probably held their loved ones hostage until they could come up with a down payment and mortgage and of course you know he refused to let them read the CC&R's before hand (even if the covenants are public record) to understand what they were buying into.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 02/07/2013 12:23 PM
Sadly this is another example of HOA abuse, I'm sure the developer gathered six random couples together and forced them to buy these properties. He probably held their loved ones hostage until they could come up with a down payment and mortgage and of course you know he refused to let them read the CC&R's before hand (even if the covenants are public record) to understand what they were buying into.

I love it......
ParkerJ (Virginia)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/07/2013 10:59 AM
It looks like the consesus is that the HOA is already doing the assessment fairly and equally. Just because a few people don't like it doesn't mean it's not fair or equal. Half my membership never used the pool or clubhouse but it was covered in their dues.

How much difference would it make anyways if you subtracted the portion from the dues? You have to consider that if those 6 people subtract that cost from their dues then that amount will DOUBLE for those others who do live on the maintained road. Do you think that would be fair to those members?

A HOA is ONLY funded by it's members FOR it's members. Which means you all share the expenses equally (Unless dicated otherwise in the documents) no matter if you use them or not. Heck just drive up and down that road a few times to get your monies worth if it's just a use issue...Otherwise, it's just the way it works...

Melissa, thanks for your thoughts on this. I wanted to reply because i think yours gets to the root of fairness. You ask that if th 6 do not pay rates could double for the rest, and is that "fair?" I would say, "absolutely." The fees all go purely for that road's manintenance, there is no other reason for any fees at all (other than a fidelity bond to cover protection of HOA funds). If the road serves only the 12, why should they not pay 100% of its cost? Is it "fair" for the 6 to pay for something they get no use out of whatsoever? I agree a HOA is only funded by its members FOR its member. And that's the point...when 12 get 100% of the benefit but only pay for 66% of it, who's it FOR? This is not the same situation as you write about where there is a common pool or clubhouse. THis road does not serve 6 of the homes, yet consumes virtually 100% of the HOA budget.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 02/07/2013 12:23 PM
Sadly this is another example of HOA abuse, I'm sure the developer gathered six random couples together and forced them to buy these properties. He probably held their loved ones hostage until they could come up with a down payment and mortgage and of course you know he refused to let them read the CC&R's before hand (even if the covenants are public record) to understand what they were buying into.

Well, that explains a lot! First it was Roswell, then it was Kennedy, now another conspiracy! When will it all end?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Forget who benefits. The WHOLE of the HOA does. That is the point here. I don't view having to pay for a private road as any kind of benefit if I have to pay for it by using it or not using it. Paying for a private road costs money for those who have to maintain it. Paying for the private road and having no real need for it costs money as well. However, everyone that's in the HOA together ALL suffer the same consequence. A private road of which takes up a bulk of the HOA funds to pay for it.

Sorry but not alot of sympathy is going to be found here on this forum on this subject. Only because many of us have their own "Private road but don't use" issues. It sucks but it sucks for everyone else too.

Former HOA President
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Yep, doesn't look good for you, Parker, since revising your CC&Rs doesn't seem possible. Probably the developer should have set up those 12 as a "special benefit" area in your DRE docs and CC&Rs. They would've had their own reserve account for the road maintenance and replacement and an operating budget for snow removal, etc. The language may be different in your state, but too late now.

In our twin- high rise HOA, floors 3-25 are a "special benefit" area because there are certain services, reserve components, etc. that only we 3-25 folks "benefit from" and the other 17 res. units do not. Floors 1 & 2 residents sure can ride the elevator up to the 25th floor or walk on our carpeted corridors, but they have no reason to just as you have no reason to use that road. Similarly our two large commercial "lots" have a "special benefit" component to them too, e.g., residential owners don't pay into reserves for the two heat pumps that only they use.
CarlH2 (Nevada)
Posts: 5
Posted:
And after that i think the HOA would also deliver a demand letter if there is no payment to the HOA through escrow the HOA litigated pushing to pay the arrears. Which i think is the fact that is created to prove that HOA takes no legal actions in this concern.

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ParkerJ (Virginia)
Posts: 12
Posted:
melissa, with all due respect, I still think you don't understand the situation. Not all benefit or suffer from the road. only the 12 benefit, only the 12 would suffer if that road were just a dirt track. It doesn't affect the other 6 at all. The 12 are for all practical purposes a separate community, completely isolated physically from the other 6. This is not a question of all for one and one for all. this is not a community with multiple roads and there's just one some people don't use or want to pay for. there's 12 people who live on it, and 6 who live up to a mile away on totally separate public roads. I realize the law is on the 12's side due to the builder-created CCRs, but that does not make it fair, right or proper. This is why people hate HOAs. I've never lived in one before. Lesson learned.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Parker,

From what Tim, who also lives in Virginia, has posted in the past, at least one county requires that all developments be an HOA. It may very well be that the builder had no interest in imposing road maintenance obligations on the six homes not on the road but the county may have forced him into doing so.

If the HOA fees are really a burden and you are unable to amend your CC&R's, you might be able to mount a challenge in a legal action on the most basic issue of all: CC&R's, per the courts, are a contract between the owners. A contract requires that each party give something of value and receive something of value, known as consideration. Those not living on the road are giving their money but receive nothing of value in return. There is a failure of consideration for those six homes not on the private road.

PaulM18 (Virginia)
Posts: 46
Posted:
Just a thought...

Have you looked into what it would take to get VDOT to take over for the road maintenance?

Seems odd that a third of the community is on public roads and two thirds are not...

Paul
ElaineS2 (California)
Posts: 47
Posted:
Parker, Tim, Paul and the rest of you who live in Virginia-

You may enjoy listening to some of the many years worth of archived interviews conducted by Virginia native and resident Shu Bartholomew at onthecommons.net.

I especially like the ones with Evan McKenzie. http://privatopia.blogspot.com/

Btw. can anyone tell me how to make a link active within a reply on this forum?
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Hope I do this right - its been a while:

Shu Bartholomew

Name the link There should be no spaces in the url.

Or if you are using Firefox all you need to do is highlight the link ex. http://privatopia.blogspot.com/ and right click to get three different options for opening it

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 02/15/2013 2:35 AM
Hope I do this right - its been a while:

Shu Bartholomew

Name the link There should be no spaces in the url.

Or if you are using Firefox all you need to do is highlight the link ex. http://privatopia.blogspot.com/ and right click to get three different options for opening it

Lets try again: name the link

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Lets try it this way: click on quote to see how it is put together and substitute the url you want and the name you want.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElaineS2 on 02/15/2013 1:10 AM

Btw. can anyone tell me how to make a link active within a reply on this forum?

I always go to this web site and copy, paste the code then replace the info as needed.

However, this page might be better:

html code tutorial

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