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SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 8
Posted:
I live in a rural development in Iowa. The development consists of 25 single family homes. The BOD claims they are not an HOA but a nonprofit corporation. The common elements in the development consist of a sanitary sewer system and 2 recreational ponds plus a small common area at the entrance. Their documents include Articles of Incorporation, CC&R's, Bylaws, and Rules and Regulations. Membership is limited to property owners and the development is managed by the BOD. The CC&R's have long expired and are sporatically enforced. The BOD meets quarterly with an annual membership meeting in early summer. We have repeatedly asked for documents from the BOD and it takes months of e-mails and strong language to get them to turn over anything. At last years meeting no treasurers report was available, no discussion of finances was listed in the minutes except "it looks like we are a little better off than we were last year." There was no quorum of the BOD or members as this meeting. Members are not allowed to attend BOD meetings. They operate in secret and do not apply dues and fees fairly and proportionally.

Iowa has no specific laws for HOAs but HOAs are typically organized as nonprofit corporations. The issue I have is expiration of documents and unequal fees and dues charged to the homeowners. I do not believe they can now assess dues and fees because of the document expiration. They are saying that since they are not an HOA, that does not apply to them.

Any thoughts on the difference between a HOA and a nonprofit corporation would be appreciated.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Sherry, I don't see a difference. Your board is splitting hairs with you. There is a stigma with "HOAs"

This is just my amateur opinion.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
Some (most) HOAs are incorporated to shield the members (the homeowners) from direct personal liability

When inc. they are generally 'not-for-profit' corporations

Check with your state's Secretary of State as the corp. MUST BE REGISTERED

Check your state's corp. law

good luck

CAVEAT EMPTOR
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Sherry,

Associations are formed out of deed restrictions (the CC&Rs), typically to provide specific services (trash, street lights, etc.) maintain common areas/amenities and usually to oversee the compliance of the deed restrictions. Most Associations incorporate as it provides certain advantages.

There are many applicable laws that Associations must comply with (HOA/COA, Contract, Liens, etc.). An incorporated Association must also comply with the applicable State corporate laws (usually the nonprofit corporate law).

It's true that Iowa doesn't have "homeowners association law" however, they do have a Revised Uniform Unincorporated Nonprofit Association Act which addresses most of the same things an HOA law would have. This may be why your Board is saying that they are not a Homeowners Association but, since they are incorporated, a nonprofit corporation.

Since Iowa does have condominium laws (not applicable to HOAs), this may be the Boards way of making sure members understand what statutes actually apply.

As for your questions about the corporations ability to assess dues and fees along with the validity of your governing documents, that is a legal question that needs to be answered by a legal professional who has access to those documents so they can see how the documents are written. I'd suggest taking copies of your documents and consult with a local attorney.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Sherry

One of the first things I would look for is how did the present members of the BOD get to be so.

Start there as maybe it is time for some or all of them to be replaced with people more responsive.

If the majority of the owners are happy then I doubt you will be able to make any major changes but at least if you get educated on the procedures, you might could get some small changes made.

Hope this helps
SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 8
Posted:
The BOD was elected by the members or appointed by the BOD because of vacancies. The BOD has trouble keeping the positions filled for a number of reasons:
1. Its a small development.
2. Years of bickering and aruging.
3. Membership apathy.

The Covenants are original to the developer and only address architectural issues such as no mobile homes or pets other than dogs and cats, size of the house and how long the grass can get, etc. There is no dues or fees structure listed in the covenants. These are all addressed in the by-laws which were never recorded. The by-laws list membership requirements, number of directors required, meeting and voting details, and committees. They are supposed to have auditing, finance, budget, architecture, and rules committees. None of these committees exist and the books have not been audited in a number of years.

There is constant disharmony in the development. Fortunately our house sits off by itself and we have no conflicts with our closest neighbors. We have not paid any dues or fees this year because we question the validity of this organization. Recently a board member appeared at our house asking us if we were going to pay then proceded to ask us if we would agree to a new HOA. Then asked me if I would be interested in serving on the board. Confusing!

I think the only way to straighten out this mess is in court. We anticipate a small claims action against us at some point and perhaps that is what it will take to determine what it is they are and what legal rights they actually have. We believe we have a moral obligation to pay our fair share but we know there are others who have not paid and the BOD has stated they don't plan on doing anything to collect from them.

The sanitary sewer is due for county take-over in a few years so the only thing left for the BOD to control is the 2 ponds and small common area at the entrance.

At this point, I guess it is just a waiting game to see what their next move is.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

The BOD has trouble keeping the positions filled for a number of reasons: . . .They are supposed to have auditing, finance, budget, architecture, and rules committees. None of these committees exist

Well, if there aren't enough volunteers to fill the board each year, why do you think there would be enough volunteers to sit on committees? Will you volunteer to serve on any one of those committees?

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

and the books have not been audited in a number of years.

Auditing books are expensive. Even a simple financial review (which is not the same as a full audit, see Subject: Financial Audits, Reviews or Compilation Which do you use?, is fairly expensive. We recently had an outside CPA do complete a financial review of our last three years and it cost $2,000. If you have multiple years (lets say 10) you want reviewed it could be $7,000 to $10,000. If you want each year audited you might have to pay that amount per year. Does the Association have the funds to pay for that?

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

We have not paid any dues or fees this year because we question the validity of this organization.

I hope you had an attorney review your governing documents and applicable laws and received a legal opinion prior to making the decision not to pay your assessments.

As you know, if everyone (or enough) members made the same decision, the Board would need to defer maintenance or cut out other costly requirements (like a CPA reviewing the books).

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

Recently a board member appeared at our house asking us if we were going to pay then proceeded to ask us if we would agree to a new HOA. Then asked me if I would be interested in serving on the board. Confusing!

I don't know, if you look at each function separately, it isn't too confusing:

"asking us if we were going to pay" - You already admitted you haven't paid. This is usually a first step prior to escalating collection procedures.

"ask us if we would agree to a new HOA." - You have posted that the covenants are not well written and questionable. That the development is divided and bickering amongst themselves. It's likely that the Board is aware of all this. Perhaps the Board has been discussing methods to address these issues and the best looking option is to reorganize under a new Association. Hence, he asked a member their opinion to test the waters (so to speak).

"asked me if I would be interested in serving" - Heck, I do this all the time. If you mentioned the same things to that board member that you mentioned here, I would have asked if you were willing to serve to help address the issues you are concerned with. Matter of fact, I did that earlier in this posting.

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

I think the only way to straighten out this mess is in court.

If your talking about the validity of your documents, you may be right.

If your talking about straightening things out within your Association I disagree. Having the court become involved could result in things you don't want (like receivership). The better way to straighten out your concerns with the Association is to become involved and do some of the work to address the memberships concerns.

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

We anticipate a small claims action against us at some point and perhaps that is what it will take to determine what it is they are and what legal rights they actually have.

First, you better figure out what your legal rights and the Association's legal authority is way before you go to court. In my opinion, you should have figured it out before you made the decision to withhold your annual assessment payment.

It's highly possible that if the Association brings you to court on failure to pay assessments (and it's far more likely that they will simply place a lien on your property) then it's possible that that is the only issue the court will entertain. If the court makes that decision, then they won't even listen to your other issues. I urge you to seek out a legal opinion as soon as possible

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

We believe we have a moral obligation to pay our fair share but we know there are others who have not paid and the BOD has stated they don't plan on doing anything to collect from them.

Yep, try that one in court fighting a speeding ticket - But your honor, others were speeding and the Officer didn't issue them a ticket. It won't work there and it likely won't work for assessments.

Actually, regardless of your belief of a moral obligation, you likely have a legal obligation. You're just hoping that the Board does the same for you. It might work. Of course without the money, as I posted earlier, maintenance of items will likely be pushed out and the things you want done might not get done. Additionally, as a member not in good standing you may lose voting privileges and/or access to amenities or services provided by the Association.

Instead of joining the others who aren't paying, why don't you volunteer to serve and spearhead the collection of delinquent accounts.

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

The sanitary sewer is due for county take-over in a few years

Hopefully the county will keep it's promise. If this system isn't properly maintained the county might refuse until the system is brought up to code. If members aren't paying, this could cause things to be delayed.

Additionally, if the county is cash strapped they may chose not to exercise that option/commitment to take over the system.

I wouldn't count on it happening until it actually does.

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

the only thing left for the BOD to control is the 2 ponds and small common area at the entrance.

Storm water management (i.e. the ponds) can be just as expensive to maintain as roads. Hopefully there are enough current Reserves and a plan to fully fund them so they may be maintained properly. Of course if members aren't paying assessments, those Reserves may have been dipped into to pay operating expenses. If that has happened, you should expect a special assessment in the future.

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

At this point, I guess it is just a waiting game to see what their next move is.

Actually, at this point you should be confirming your opinion of the Associations validity to collect assessments. I would suspect that even without valid CC&Rs, if the Association is maintaining a sewage system for the development that a court would side with the Association concerning assessments.

Again, I urge you to seek out a legal opinion on your concerns of the Assocaitions validity.

You should also fully read and understand your governing documents and the applicable corporate law:

Revised Iowa Nonprofit Corporation Act applicable if your Association is incorporated

Revised Uniform Unincorporated Nonprofit Association Act applicable if your Association is not incorporated.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Is this another non-dues payer looking for an out versus paying their dues and working within the system to correct the system?

Me thinks....maybe......
SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Tim,

It is clear that the covenants have expired and the non-profit knows this and recognizes this. This is why they want to begin anew. We are not opposed to that but there are others in the development that would not agree to it ever. In Iowa you must have 100% approval from the property owners to accomplish this. We haven't paid this year because we have already given the association thousands of dollars in sewer maintenance fees and membership fees since 2007. This is what we are disturbed about. Others have not come close to paying what we have including board members. Board members get special treatment. I put my name out there to run for the board, then changed my mind. There is so much discontent in the development. It would be a daunting task to bring about any change.

The ponds are for recreational purposes only; fishing and swimming. They serve no drainage purpose. When I say audit the books, I mean there is no oversight. After weeks of asking for the financial report, I was finally e-mailed the report. I see many inconsistencies and check numbers missing and questionable expenses.

We do not have funds to pay an attorney. We do not know what else to do except develop a wait and see approach. Placing a lien on our home is not a legal option for them.

Your argument about speeding tickets is not the same as our situation. This is a BOD that is incompetent and out of control.

The county made no promises about taking over the sanitary sewer but indicated that if grants do not become available within the next few years, the homeowners will have to begin installing private septic tanks.

It's a sad situation. We just want fair and equitable treatment for everyone.
SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 8
Posted:
John,

That is absolutely not true. We have paid more to the association than anyone serving on the board. The BOD is out of control and we are at a loss as to what to do about it.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 5:10 PM

It would be a daunting task to bring about any change.

Daunting task or not, it can be done. Certainly it won't happen over night but over time changes can be made. Heck, it took me three years of just educating our membership before I was able to gather enough votes to make changes on the Board. Once those changes were done, other changes slowly happened.

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 5:10 PM

When I say audit the books, I mean there is no oversight.

OK. Without volunteers or membership participation there won't be any oversight.
You stated that your Association is required to have a financial review committee. Well, volunteer to serve on that. This way, oversight can be done. Had you not withdrawn your name as a nominee, it's possible you would have been sitting on the Board and could have served as treasurer. Then you could have done a simple review of your books and brought those concerns to the Board.

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 5:10 PM

After weeks of asking for the financial report, I was finally e-mailed the report. I see many inconsistencies and check numbers missing and questionable expenses.

Did you ask follow-up questions of the Treasurer?

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 5:10 PM

We do not have funds to pay an attorney. We do not know what else to do except develop a wait and see approach.

Sorry to hear that. $300-$500 now for an opinion is likely cheaper then defending yourself in legal action brought by the Association. It's also possible that the loser will have to pay reasonable attorney fees. Therefore, if you lost, you may have to pay your legal fees and the Assocaitions legal fees.

I'm just saying it may be more prudent to get a legal opinion now rather then defend a legal action later.

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 5:10 PM

Placing a lien on our home is not a legal option for them.

Granted, I am not an attorney and I do not work in the legal profession. I am also not a student of Iowa laws. However, I have never heard that Assocaitions do not have the option of filing a lien. Could you please provided the basis for your statement (this way I can learn something new).

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 5:10 PM

Your argument about speeding tickets is not the same as our situation.

I based my speeding ticket comment on your comment that others weren't paying so why should you.
If that is the argument you will use in court, you will likely lose as it's not a valid argument.

If it's ruled that you have a legal obligation to pay and failed to pay, there is really nothing more to discuss on the issue of paying assessments.

The other issues you cited about the Association may or may not be heard. It will depend on the court.

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 5:10 PM

We just want fair and equitable treatment for everyone.

I certainly understand that.
I'm just pointing out that if you don't believe those who are running your Association are being fair and treating everyone equally, then it is far far less expensive and less risky if you (and other like minded members) volunteer and get yourself elected to the Board. Once on the Board, you will then have the authority to make the decisions so things are fair and the members are all treated equally.

Your method could work but you could also have a higher risk losing your home in a worst case scenario (board is able to file a lien and then forecloses on it) then the method I suggest.

I wish you luck.

Tim
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 5:10 PM
It is clear that the covenants have expired.

How did they expire? Most covenants run forever or until the property owners execute and record an instrument to terminate them.
SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Larry,

In Iowa the covenants have a 21 year time limit unless they are preserved according to Iowa Code 614.24. This was not done so they have expired. They do not actively enforce these. They only try to enforce the dues and fees and they do this unequally and not proportionally.

Tim,

Think I will take your advice. Pay up, get on the board, or volunteer for a committee or all committees. It will be a challenge. The current board consists of 2 bullys that feed off of each other. I really want to be a positive voice for the betterment of the neighborhood.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Sherry

I commend you for taking the high road. Get your dues upto date and run for the BOD. It will take time and effort, but it can be done. Start with gathering allies amoung fellow owners. Do not go in with a cross to burn but more like what can we do to improve and assure the financial security of our organization.

Win support, make allies, have a plan/goals, then persue the plan.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
With no CC&Rs in place, what legal authority does this board have do anything in that association?
SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Dave,

That is my point. Do they have any legal authority? The Iowa Court of Appeals ruled against an HOA in Chipman vs. Carney for a similar situation and denied them any assessment rights.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Just off the top of my head.....

Its likely the sewer system was required because the land could not pass perk and soil tests to install a septic system. Given the mention of the pond, its likely the water table is too high. So in order to make the lots buildable, a sewer system was required and installed or no houses would have been allowed.

So if no septic systems can be installed, your stuck with a private sewer system and stuck with an HOA to run it whether you like it or not.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Some houses will likely be able to install a septic system, but not all. So what could happen, is you could install a septic, but your neighbor cannot. So some homes will have septic, but others will not. So the sewer stays, but has less users. But all homeowners will be required to still pay for the sewer, because they belong to the HOA which is required to maintain it. Homeowners cannot leave.

Its like saying you want to leave your town, and not pay real estate taxes...... but not move. Doesn't work that way.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Sherry

Steve raise an interesting point. If there is a sanitary sewage system to maintain then there has to be a entity to maintain such (regardless of the ponds and entrance way) in such that one cannot disband/disregard anything as the local government says the sanitary sewage system has to be maintained.

Wow...talk abotu a run along sentence.......LOL

Maybe there is someplace to start..the local government..which might say there is and needs to be an association.

Hope this helps.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Another reason why the developer may have built a sewer system is because he didn't have enough space between the well and septic system per lot, and therefore chose a sewer system. The well needs to be very far away from the septic system so you dont end up drinking your poop. In dense lots, this is not possible, thus the requirement for a private sewer system.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
To John's point, I would think that a "Sewer Assessment District" or whatever it might be, is a separate legal entity with a specific purpose that is NOT the HOA Board. It's possible that the authority for the Sewer District AND the CC&Rs were housed with the same entity (the board), but upon expiration of the CC&Rs, I would expect "The Board" to revert to no responsibility other than the sewer.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveD3 on 01/28/2013 3:08 PM
To John's point, I would think that a "Sewer Assessment District" or whatever it might be, is a separate legal entity with a specific purpose that is NOT the HOA Board. It's possible that the authority for the Sewer District AND the CC&Rs were housed with the same entity (the board), but upon expiration of the CC&Rs, I would expect "The Board" to revert to no responsibility other than the sewer.

I am not nor do I play a laywer but what I am saying, and you may have re-enforced it, is a "responsibility" if for no other thing, then the sewer. If so then maybe what was thought lost is not lost as this responsibilty never ended.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Likewise not a lawyer, John.
Sounds like they're taking on the sewer responsibility and also trying to play HOA when they may not have any legal authority to do so.
A quick read through the documents, and a phone call or few to some overseeing governmental bodies could clear up what their actual state is. Might be a better first step than lawyering up.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
We haven't paid this year because we have already given the association thousands of dollars in sewer maintenance fees and membership fees since 2007.


Maintaining the HOA and sewer does cost money, at some point when enough people stop paying what do you think the HOA will do? I will start suing.

Quote:
We do not have funds to pay an attorney. We do not know what else to do except develop a wait and see approach. Placing a lien on our home is not a legal option for them.


Well, your hoa may have legally expired, but your still using the services without paying. So if it goes to court, you will loose. You will end up paying your dues, paying for the HOA lawyer (which could be $4,000) paying for your own lawyer, and other misc expenses. Many HOAs don't even bother with liens, they go right to foreclosure lawsuit which is something you cant handle yourself.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Based on the counter under Sherry's name, it appears that she has resigned membership from this forum. Hopefully she was able to gain some assistance before she left.
SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 47
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/29/2013 5:17 AM
Based on the counter under Sherry's name, it appears that she has resigned membership from this forum. Hopefully she was able to gain some assistance before she left.

I returned to this forum to provide an explanation and hopefully some constructive ideas on how to proceed with the conflict with my Association. I got frustrated and left the forum but I need to understand that all of you are not getting the full picture. It’s hard to explain in this format because it is a complicated situation.

First of all, it’s not about trying to get out of paying our dues and assessments. Withholding those is to get the BOD’s attention. I have tried to explain our position to the BOD but so far no one is willing to listen or respond. Our position is that the fee structure is unfair and not proportional. New members are expected to pay the Association $5,000 or $15,000 to access the sewer system depending on if homeowners are members, members not in good-standing, or nonmembers. Keep in mind the going rate for sewer hook-up for the same lagoon sanitary sewer system in the area is $0-$300 and the homeowner has to pay a contractor to do the actual hook-up which depending on how far your lot is from the closest sewer line can run into thousands of dollars.

I have done research as to applicable laws and am not overly concerned about foreclosure, paying attorney fees, etc. The amount in question is $325. In Iowa small claims court has a $5,000 limit. The Association has less than $20,000 in their account. It would cost the Association approximately $80 to file a small claims case and these cases are tried as contract cases. Attorney fees are rarely granted accept if one can prove fraud.

Our goal is to get the Association to revise its fee structure to make it fair and equitable and to let them know that we believe they are not in compliance with the law. New members are expected to pay thousands of dollars in up-front sewer maintenance costs. Current members have only had to pay an annual user fee. Some members don’t even pay those.

I have seen a number of posts where people paying their fair share is what is expected and brings about the most emotion. This is what we seek; fair and proportional fees.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:

I have done research as to applicable laws and am not overly concerned about foreclosure, paying attorney fees, etc. The amount in question is $325. In Iowa small claims court has a $5,000 limit. The Association has less than $20,000 in their account. It would cost the Association approximately $80 to file a small claims case and these cases are tried as contract cases. Attorney fees are rarely granted accept if one can prove fraud.


If your not paying, a lawyer may take the case no charge to the hoa, and with lawyer fees tacked on, it will exceed small claims court, forcing it to a higher court. Small claims court does not handle foreclosures. And yes, in a real court, attorney fees will be granted. You should be very afraid.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:

Our goal is to get the Association to revise its fee structure to make it fair and equitable and to let them know that we believe they are not in compliance with the law.


I understand what your doing, but your going about it all wrong. Lets say you didnt like the school system, would you stop paying real estate taxes? What would happen next? City will take your home. HOA has the authority to do the same thing.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Non payment of dues is an easy win for a lawyer. You will not be allowed to discuss your problems with the HOA not charging proportionately in court. The judge will not allow it, because the case is only about non-payment of dues. So I'm not sure what your plan is.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By n/a on 01/28/2013 6:20 AM

Tim,

Think I will take your advice. Pay up, get on the board, or volunteer for a committee or all committees. It will be a challenge. The current board consists of 2 bullys that feed off of each other. I really want to be a positive voice for the betterment of the neighborhood.

Sherry,

I would stick with this plan. This way you might also find out why there are differences in fees (there has to be some sort of rational behind the fee schedule).

And, Welcome Back.
SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 47
Posted:
Steve,

I will take your comments as a concern for me but believe you are overstating the potential consequences. This is not your typical HOA. In Iowa the CC&R's are the contract between the HOA and the homeowner. The CC&Rs only dealt with the architectural features of the home and have expired long ago. Membership in this association is not mandatory and there was no specific contract between us and the association to pay dues and fees. Yes, we need to pay for maintenance to the sewer but I strongly believe the Association will need to prove to a judge that their fees are reasonable and proportional. I have researched this and have found similar cases as ours. They rule that since no contract existed but services are being offered, people must pay a reasonable fee for those services. I know what the Associations expenses have been because I have received financial documents from them since 2001 to current.

Sherry
SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 47
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/29/2013 8:30 AM
Posted By n/a on 01/28/2013 6:20 AM

Tim,

Think I will take your advice. Pay up, get on the board, or volunteer for a committee or all committees. It will be a challenge. The current board consists of 2 bullys that feed off of each other. I really want to be a positive voice for the betterment of the neighborhood.


Sherry,

I would stick with this plan. This way you might also find out why there are differences in fees (there has to be some sort of rational behind the fee schedule).

And, Welcome Back.

Tim,

I know why they charge so much for new members because I asked them. Their response was to keep mobile homes out of the development. I guess their fees are used to deter people with mobile homes from moving into the development.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
They charge a high rate to join into the development for mobile homes? Something on your HOA's setup with that statement makes me question if yes indeed it is a HOA. It isn't in the normal terms. I could see it being something else if there is a charge to move in.

Former HOA President
SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 47
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/29/2013 10:21 AM
They charge a high rate to join into the development for mobile homes? Something on your HOA's setup with that statement makes me question if yes indeed it is a HOA. It isn't in the normal terms. I could see it being something else if there is a charge to move in.

The fees are for sanitary sewer hook-up not to join into the development. It's a homeowner's only option for sewer service so this association holds you hostage to this outrageous fee.
SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 47
Posted:
I believe their thinking is that people owning mobile homes wouldn't have that much money.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
No it is more like mobile homes hooking up to sewer lines is more expensive. Sewer systems are not created equal. So if you don't use theirs can you hook up to the city or county? It cost us over $500 to hook up to our counties system. I think it went up to $2K in certain situations. I don't know how to put your sewer system costs into perpective to know if it is too much charge. A self maintained system has costs. Plus need to add on future replacement money. It isn't just current use but future maintenace and replacement costs to factor in.


Former HOA President
SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 47
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/29/2013 11:00 AM
No it is more like mobile homes hooking up to sewer lines is more expensive. Sewer systems are not created equal. So if you don't use theirs can you hook up to the city or county? It cost us over $500 to hook up to our counties system. I think it went up to $2K in certain situations. I don't know how to put your sewer system costs into perpective to know if it is too much charge. A self maintained system has costs. Plus need to add on future replacement money. It isn't just current use but future maintenace and replacement costs to factor in.


No don't believe that's it because a BOD member said "we don't want chicken coops and mobile homes moving in here." There is a cosmetic reason and the homeowner has to pay a plumber for the hook-up not the Association.

We can't hook-up to the county or city because we are way out in the country. I know what their costs have been since 2001 and believe me $5,000 or $15,000 is not a proportional share. They went years with no maintenance except electricity to run the pumps. My personal opinion is that they want money in their account because they don't have much money but they only want to get it from new people.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am not sure if I see the exact problem here. No offense but if the problem is that you are paying more money to upkeep an aging system, that's kind of the way things work. You mentioned they neglected the pumps. That means to me that they may need to be replaced. That takes money. Which comes from only the people who are to pay in and use it.

You admit that you stopped paying. Who else has done the same thing? When you or someone else stops paying that means more money will have to be paid in to cover the people NOT paying. It cost people more money to cover the portion people aren't paying. Hence why they also may have raised or charge differently.

Why worry if they are charging new people a higher rate? That's their business just like it is yours for paying the amount you do. Until you get on the board and do the research. There's not much you can do.

Former HOA President
SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 47
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/29/2013 1:12 PM
I am not sure if I see the exact problem here. No offense but if the problem is that you are paying more money to upkeep an aging system, that's kind of the way things work. You mentioned they neglected the pumps. That means to me that they may need to be replaced. That takes money. Which comes from only the people who are to pay in and use it.

You admit that you stopped paying. Who else has done the same thing? When you or someone else stops paying that means more money will have to be paid in to cover the people NOT paying. It cost people more money to cover the portion people aren't paying. Hence why they also may have raised or charge differently.

Why worry if they are charging new people a higher rate? That's their business just like it is yours for paying the amount you do. Until you get on the board and do the research. There's not much you can do.

Melissa,
Would you like to be paying thousands of dollars more for something than other homeowners that have lived there for 30 years for the same service? I've seen you post that you want people to pay their fair share.

I did not mention that they neglected the pumps. I said they paid electricity to run the pumps. They have not raised the rates because we have not paid this years fees. They have thousands of dollars of our money already.

I have done the research. I know what the others have paid and it does not come close to what we have paid.
SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 47
Posted:
I'm sorry I haven't explained this situation so it is understandable. I'm drawing the conclusion that my association is not an HOA which is what they have been telling me all along.

Thanks for everyone's input. I did receive an education.

Think I am boring you all with my tale of woe so will move on to a new thread.

Will keep you posted of any new developments.

Thanks again.

Sherry
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
I'm drawing the conclusion that my association is not an HOA which is what they have been telling me all along.


If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, ITS A DUCK.

Quote:
The common elements in the development consist of a sanitary sewer system and 2 recreational ponds plus a small common area at the entrance. Their documents include Articles of Incorporation, CC&R's, Bylaws, and Rules and Regulations.


Yeah, you live in an HOA. I really don't care what anyone tells you otherwise.
SherryS2 (Washington)
Posts: 47
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/27/2013 4:25 PM
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

The BOD has trouble keeping the positions filled for a number of reasons: . . .They are supposed to have auditing, finance, budget, architecture, and rules committees. None of these committees exist


Well, if there aren't enough volunteers to fill the board each year, why do you think there would be enough volunteers to sit on committees? Will you volunteer to serve on any one of those committees?

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

and the books have not been audited in a number of years.


Auditing books are expensive. Even a simple financial review (which is not the same as a full audit, see Subject: Financial Audits, Reviews or Compilation Which do you use?, is fairly expensive. We recently had an outside CPA do complete a financial review of our last three years and it cost $2,000. If you have multiple years (lets say 10) you want reviewed it could be $7,000 to $10,000. If you want each year audited you might have to pay that amount per year. Does the Association have the funds to pay for that?

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

We have not paid any dues or fees this year because we question the validity of this organization.


I hope you had an attorney review your governing documents and applicable laws and received a legal opinion prior to making the decision not to pay your assessments.

As you know, if everyone (or enough) members made the same decision, the Board would need to defer maintenance or cut out other costly requirements (like a CPA reviewing the books).

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

Recently a board member appeared at our house asking us if we were going to pay then proceeded to ask us if we would agree to a new HOA. Then asked me if I would be interested in serving on the board. Confusing!


I don't know, if you look at each function separately, it isn't too confusing:

"asking us if we were going to pay" - You already admitted you haven't paid. This is usually a first step prior to escalating collection procedures.

"ask us if we would agree to a new HOA." - You have posted that the covenants are not well written and questionable. That the development is divided and bickering amongst themselves. It's likely that the Board is aware of all this. Perhaps the Board has been discussing methods to address these issues and the best looking option is to reorganize under a new Association. Hence, he asked a member their opinion to test the waters (so to speak).

"asked me if I would be interested in serving" - Heck, I do this all the time. If you mentioned the same things to that board member that you mentioned here, I would have asked if you were willing to serve to help address the issues you are concerned with. Matter of fact, I did that earlier in this posting.

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

I think the only way to straighten out this mess is in court.


If your talking about the validity of your documents, you may be right.

If your talking about straightening things out within your Association I disagree. Having the court become involved could result in things you don't want (like receivership). The better way to straighten out your concerns with the Association is to become involved and do some of the work to address the memberships concerns.

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

We anticipate a small claims action against us at some point and perhaps that is what it will take to determine what it is they are and what legal rights they actually have.


First, you better figure out what your legal rights and the Association's legal authority is way before you go to court. In my opinion, you should have figured it out before you made the decision to withhold your annual assessment payment.

It's highly possible that if the Association brings you to court on failure to pay assessments (and it's far more likely that they will simply place a lien on your property) then it's possible that that is the only issue the court will entertain. If the court makes that decision, then they won't even listen to your other issues. I urge you to seek out a legal opinion as soon as possible

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

We believe we have a moral obligation to pay our fair share but we know there are others who have not paid and the BOD has stated they don't plan on doing anything to collect from them.


Yep, try that one in court fighting a speeding ticket - But your honor, others were speeding and the Officer didn't issue them a ticket. It won't work there and it likely won't work for assessments.

Actually, regardless of your belief of a moral obligation, you likely have a legal obligation. You're just hoping that the Board does the same for you. It might work. Of course without the money, as I posted earlier, maintenance of items will likely be pushed out and the things you want done might not get done. Additionally, as a member not in good standing you may lose voting privileges and/or access to amenities or services provided by the Association.

Instead of joining the others who aren't paying, why don't you volunteer to serve and spearhead the collection of delinquent accounts.

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

The sanitary sewer is due for county take-over in a few years


Hopefully the county will keep it's promise. If this system isn't properly maintained the county might refuse until the system is brought up to code. If members aren't paying, this could cause things to be delayed.

Additionally, if the county is cash strapped they may chose not to exercise that option/commitment to take over the system.

I wouldn't count on it happening until it actually does.

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

the only thing left for the BOD to control is the 2 ponds and small common area at the entrance.


Storm water management (i.e. the ponds) can be just as expensive to maintain as roads. Hopefully there are enough current Reserves and a plan to fully fund them so they may be maintained properly. Of course if members aren't paying assessments, those Reserves may have been dipped into to pay operating expenses. If that has happened, you should expect a special assessment in the future.

Quote:
Posted By SherryS2 on 01/27/2013 11:53 AM

At this point, I guess it is just a waiting game to see what their next move is.


Actually, at this point you should be confirming your opinion of the Associations validity to collect assessments. I would suspect that even without valid CC&Rs, if the Association is maintaining a sewage system for the development that a court would side with the Association concerning assessments.

Again, I urge you to seek out a legal opinion on your concerns of the Assocaitions validity.

You should also fully read and understand your governing documents and the applicable corporate law:

Revised Iowa Nonprofit Corporation Act applicable if your Association is incorporated

Revised Uniform Unincorporated Nonprofit Association Act applicable if your Association is not incorporated.

Update: Just as we expected we were served civil papers in small claims court on Thursday. Prior to being served, I had e-mailed the BOD and volunteered to revive some committees or fill a vacancy on the board. Before everyone gets their ire up about us not paying, it was not like we were years behind just a couple of months. Like I stated before, it was to get their attention. Decided to try to work within the system and mailed off our dues today. Now the ball is in their court. If I don't receive any response, I'm not sure how to proceed. I have researched this situation and still believe thay may not be in compliance with the law. - Sherry
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Sherry

Well done on paying the dues because be they right or wrong they could always fall back on she is just a dead beat not paying her dues.

Now you can hold your head high and as you disagree/fight/do whatever, but at least no one can accuse you of being a dead beat.

You made a good step forward. Now go after them.

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