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Guns in Common Area

Started by HelenH2 • 24 replies • 4870 views

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HelenH2 (Missouri)
Posts: 18
Posted:
Thinking about gun control on Common Grounds. Our HOA is in MO, with state law of right to carry concealed weapons. In this area of the state, many are gun owners, hunters, and NRA supporters. Our HOA has a children's playground, common grassy area, and a gated area for pools and patio. What are your opinions about our HOA amending to include a rule: no firearms allowed in common grounds. Since it would need to follow our process of amending, it will require publication to owners and discussion and vote, so I am concerned that strong supporters of guns would start bandishing their guns because they are angry about us trying to limit their rights, even before we could get it through the process and rule past. But I am also concerned that gun violence can happen anywhere and more people are resorting to gun violence, which makes others want to protect their families and therefore more people carry guns. We don't want someone bandishing, displaying, or bringing guns to the pool and playground/common grounds. Any thoughts? Has your association made any rules about guns? What did you experience?
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
I tend to think you're right, HelenH2. Publicize and sponsor a rule that firearms aren't allowed in those areas will set off CERTAIN gun owners. Not all, of course.

But, help me out: If it's legal to carry concealed firearms in MO, wouldn't "brandishing" a firearm be against the law?

Secondly, and with the greatest sympathy towards the families of victims of gun violence: Despite heightened worries about gun violence, if we think about all HOA common grounds areas all over the US, how many hours a week they're open, multiplied by 52 weeks a year etc., we have an immense number of hours when there's been no gun violence. If the topic came up in our HOA, I'd oppose making a rule that may oppose state laws--for eventualities where the odds are huge against such violence occurring.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Helen

I myself would have no issues with regulations as long as they do not infringe on ones rights.

As an example in a condo the common ground includes hallways, lobbies, etc. so if such a regulation I could not carry a gun from my car to my unit. Thus I have an issue.

In a HOA of standalone home like my present and past one, a regulation saying no guns in the common areas would not effect my ability to carry it from my car into my home so I might could go along with such.

My overall advice is stay away from the issue as it could (almost guarantee) it will become heated and divisive.

EdmundS1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 45
Posted:
I don't see HOA rules having the power to over rule state laws. Having a gun on your person is not banishing.....why do nuts with guns go the "GUN FREE ZONES" the people there don't have guns and have a BULLS EYE on their back...I would welcome someone licensed to carry at our HOA poll, common area....etc.

Your opening a can of worms you don't need to open....

PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 01/25/2013 2:48 PM
Helen

I myself would have no issues with regulations as long as they do not infringe on ones rights.

As an example in a condo the common ground includes hallways, lobbies, etc. so if such a regulation I could not carry a gun from my car to my unit. Thus I have an issue.

In a HOA of standalone home like my present and past one, a regulation saying no guns in the common areas would not effect my ability to carry it from my car into my home so I might could go along with such.

My overall advice is stay away from the issue as it could (almost guarantee) it will become heated and divisive.


Agree, suggest you find out exactely what your Town's, counties, and State's ordinances are. You may be able to write something more restrictive for your Assn but consulting with an Attorney first may save you some headaches later. There was a very long thread on this subject about 6 months ago about an HOA member open carrying in the pool area.

Paul T
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
How about this: make a rule to ban the behavior you don't wish to see. Period.

So, you get lazy, and decide to "ban guns" in the common area instead of making rules about behaviors that are unacceptable. Fine. No guns.

Well, except for police, right? Are you going to make them disarm, say, before they step into the pool area to break up a drunk fight? Before they come in to do a neighborhood watch meeting?

And what about the Hunter Safety Course, offered by the State Conservation Group? They wanted to meet at the clubhouse, and do a six week course, but now... they are banned. Or the Boy Scout group, doing a demonstration on firearm safety.

And that woman, the owner with the psychotic ex husband, the court order... when she goes to do laundry, she has to leave her weapon behind. or do you make an exception for that?

And the security guard? exemption, or no?

But the good news is, the gun ban is in place. So, I can carry a machete, and a chainsaw, and threaten people with them. I can take a bottle of gasoline, with a rag, and light it off.. no rule against Molotov Cocktails, right? I can carry a baseball bat and break kneecaps, just so long as I don't have an actual firearm. Mace? acceptable. Taser? Just fine. Shoot people all night with WD-40 and a lighter. 2x4 with nails sticking out, beating up people, perfectly fine.

But, if I happen to have an unloaded firearm in the back of my trunk, parked at the tennis court. Big trouble buster. Cause guns are bad.

People on the other hand, always angels.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Helen,

We had a change in gun laws here in Arizona about two years ago.

Prior to the change, firearms could be carried concealed only with a permit. They could be carried openly in most public places without a permit. Once in a great while you would see some Neanderthal wandering around in a grocery store with a pistol on his hip and I always ascribed that behavior to a pathetic attempt to intimidate the world.

The change two years ago now allows us to carry guns concealed without a permit. I own a number of guns but I find no particular need to carry one with me. The biggest change for me personally is that I no longer have to worry about getting busted for the pistol under the front seat of my vehicle.

The number of Neanderthals has remained about the same. Despite the fact that they can carry their guns concealed they still walk around with a pistol publicly displayed as if to dare someone to attack. When I see one I cannot help but think back to Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder in Stir Crazy: "That's right! We bad!"

Gun ownership is a very divisive issue and trying to ban guns from a common area where there is no previous problem is much like throwing a match on gasoline. There will be an explosion and there is no telling who will get burned. Unless you have some Neanderthal wandering around scaring people, this is one sleeping dog that I would not wake.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By HelenH2 on 01/25/2013 1:34 PM
Thinking about gun control on Common Grounds. Our HOA is in MO, with state law of right to carry concealed weapons. In this area of the state, many are gun owners, hunters, and NRA supporters. Our HOA has a children's playground, common grassy area, and a gated area for pools and patio. What are your opinions about our HOA amending to include a rule: no firearms allowed in common grounds. Since it would need to follow our process of amending, it will require publication to owners and discussion and vote, so I am concerned that strong supporters of guns would start bandishing their guns because they are angry about us trying to limit their rights, even before we could get it through the process and rule past. But I am also concerned that gun violence can happen anywhere and more people are resorting to gun violence, which makes others want to protect their families and therefore more people carry guns. We don't want someone bandishing, displaying, or bringing guns to the pool and playground/common grounds. Any thoughts? Has your association made any rules about guns? What did you experience?

Helen, If state law allows you to limit firearms in HOA common areas, which is private property, then you can proceed with your effort.

Now, once you determine if you can proceed, do you really have a problem in your community with families brandishing firearms in your common areas? As a long-time board president, I've learned to moderate my battles against Straw Men because it will be volunteers who must enforce the rules - and they'll have no technical method to determine who is carrying a concealed weapon in their bag. And do, Granny Johnson the board member wouldn't be going through my pool bag (and I'd not be carrying a gun.) See how this is difficult?
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
What Larry said. Unless you can line up a near consensus before bringing this for a vote you are more likely to stir up the crazies, and they will START carrying their guns around until they get tired and move on to something else.

By the way, even in Arizona (which, I can say, has a fair number of people, well, let's just say they are five sigma out) it is allowable to have a no-guns policy in businesses. I suspect that in many cases an HOA could, legally, place restrictions on carrying guns. However in the present state in the US this amounts to waving red flags in front of a bull.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I can see banning guns from HOA meetings...Just sayin...
Former HOA President
HelenH2 (Missouri)
Posts: 18
Posted:
I see your points of not establishing a rule on guns. I also see the last point made on banning guns from an HOA meeting, too. Our meetings have almost always been peaceful; however, the place you live is the foundation rung on Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs and things could get out of hand because of the importance of things affecting your home. We are lucky in that we have our meetings at the local library and the library has a notice on the door of no weapons. So thank you to everyone for your advice. We will not ask for a rule to ban guns from the common grounds.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
How were you going to implement the rule anyways? Ask the person who has a gun to remove it and hand it over to someone? Don't know about you but I know of no gun owner who is going to hand over their gun just because they are asked. Especially if there are no lock boxes available or proper controls.

People who want to use a gun will no matter what the laws. People who have control of their guns won't.
Former HOA President
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
What problem is it that you're trying to fix by prohibiting the law-abiding from possessing firearms in common areas?
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> What problem is it that you're trying to fix by prohibiting the law-abiding from possessing firearms in common areas?

I have advised against pursuing this, largely to avoid stirring up the second amendment zealots. However there are two reasons why I don't want guns in common areas:

1. It makes me feel uncomfortable, maybe threatened. I might not know the person carrying; I don't know if the gun is loaded or safety set. And anyone carrying a gun to the pool or to pick up his mail seems to me, well, unbalanced.

2. Having guns around means there is real potential for having an already bad situation escalate. Having an argument and possibly a disorderly conduct citation turn into attempted homicide. I have known it to happen.

For these reasons- in AZ I favor restaurants, etc. with a no-gun policy.
JH3 (Maryland)
Posts: 67
Posted:
You cannot enact a rule that directly conflicts with a constitutional right, federal, or state law. If the law says they can carry a concealed weapon, then you cannot create a rule which says they cannot. If they're showing off the weapon, and or flashing it, then that is a matter for police, not the HOA.

You're best advised to leave this matter alone, and bring it to law enforcement's attention.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredS7 on 01/28/2013 10:07 AM
>
For these reasons- in AZ I favor restaurants, etc. with a no-gun policy.

Oh you mean like Luby's in Texas where the only gun in the place was that of the killer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_massacre
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> You cannot enact a rule that directly conflicts with a constitutional right

Actually in Arizona you CAN (a private owner can post an area off-limits for guns). Probably the case in other states also.

> Oh you mean like Luby's in Texas where the only gun in the place was that of the killer?

You imagine that other citizens with guns could take down a criminal. I imagine those citizens shot by responding police and taking down the unarmed in the crossfire. See comment above about escalation.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredS7 on 01/30/2013 5:08 AM
Actually in Arizona you CAN (a private owner can post an area off-limits for guns). Probably the case in other states also.

Has there been a recent change in state law? For many decades the law said that a business owner could request that a person remove his gun and that the business then had to hold the gun in a secure place until the gunowner leaves. Last I looked, this was still in effect but that was a year or two ago.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> Has there been a recent change in state law?

I am not a gun lawyer ('specially not a gun lawyer) so I looked it up on wikipedia after I saw the signs at my favorite restaurant. Recognizing that this is not an authoritative source, and that it could be different tomorrow, this is what they say:

"State law prohibits the carrying of firearms in certain areas. These prohibited areas include:

...

* Any private property or private establishment where the owner or any other person having lawful control over the property has given reasonable notice forbidding the carriage of deadly weapons or firearms. However, this does not apply to:

* Officers of the law who are legally executing official duties
* Lawfully possessed firearms that are in a locked and privately owned vehicle or in a locked compartment on a privately owned motorcycle and that are not visible from outside the vehicle or motorcycle."

The text referring to restaurants and bars says

...

(prohibited areas include)

"* Establishments which are licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises. However, this does not apply to:

* The licensee or an employee of the licensee acting with the permission of the licensee to be in possession of a firearm while on the licensed premises.
* A person who is on the premises for a limited time to seek emergency aid, if such person does not buy, receive, consume, or possess alcohol while there.
* Hotel or motel guest room accommodations.
* The exhibition or display of a firearm in conjunction with a meeting, show, class or similar event.
* A person with a concealed carry permit who carries a concealed handgun, provided that there is no notice posted forbidding such, and provided that the concealed carry permit holder consumes no alcohol while on the premises.
* Peace officers or members of a sheriff's volunteer posse while on duty who have received firearms training that is approved by the Arizona peace officer standards and training board."

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredS7 on 01/30/2013 5:08 AM
> You imagine that other citizens with guns could take down a criminal. I imagine those citizens shot by responding police and taking down the unarmed in the crossfire. See comment above about escalation.

Fred we're getting away from the OP's question but one of the reasons Texas has a concealed carry law is because of the Luby's incident:

The law had been campaigned for by Suzanna Hupp, who was present at the time of the massacre where both of her parents were shot and killed. She later expressed regret about deciding to leave her gun in her car lest she risk possibly running afoul of the state's concealed weapons laws; during the shootings, she reached for her weapon but then remembered that it was "a hundred feet away in my car."
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
JH3 (Maryland)
Posts: 67
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredS7 on 01/30/2013 5:08 AM
> You cannot enact a rule that directly conflicts with a constitutional right

Actually in Arizona you CAN (a private owner can post an area off-limits for guns). Probably the case in other states also.

> Oh you mean like Luby's in Texas where the only gun in the place was that of the killer?

You imagine that other citizens with guns could take down a criminal. I imagine those citizens shot by responding police and taking down the unarmed in the crossfire. See comment above about escalation.

Private land is not an association. Apples/oranges.
MelindaM3 (West Virginia)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Since the condo association owns the common areas then in theory the members could vote to prohibit firearms from those areas. The problem then becomes one of liability, which has been pursued in other states. Will you provide locked boxes at the pool in case someone does bring a firearm, so it can be kept securely out of the pool area? If a stalker or abusive ex attacks a woman who owns a home in the community, and she has a CHL and normally carries, but didn't because she took her child to the playground where firearms are not permitted, is the association liable for failing to protect her? Do you want to be the test case?

IMO tramping on civil rights because someone wants to "feel safe" is a nonstarter. There are also plenty of folks who routinely ignore the "No Guns" signs, and since concealed means concealed, no one's the wiser.

Finally, firearm owners are pretty stirred up now as it is. I hold a dealer license and the buying public has gone bonkers; in fact, I joke that gun prices are now where real-estate was in 2004. Unless there is an actual problem to be solved I wouldn't poke this hornet's nest.
HelenH2 (Missouri)
Posts: 18
Posted:
I am glad we hold our HOA meetings in our local public library, which does have a sign that guns are not permitted. Hopefully no one will bring a gun to the pool or playground. I thank everyone for their research and discussions and experience in my question. We will not be requesting a rule to ban guns.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
It makes people feel more safe to add restrictions on other people who will follow the rule, not the criminal who'll ignore the rule. Odd human logic but prevalent in society. It's like tackling drunk driving by regulating car use by non-drinkers.

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