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DurwoodD (Maine)
Posts: 5
Posted:
We bought a brand new "super airtight" home approximately 5 months ago in a 2 year old housing development in Maine. We have had some issues with water stains on the ceiling in the second story bathroom where the radon pipe comes up through the walls and floor from the slab. Cracks in the boot that encases the radon pipe on the outside of the roof were noticed during our personally hired home inspection. We contacted the seller/builder at that time due to the first sighting of water staining on the ceiling. They came and put tar and silicone around it. We again saw increased water staining and had the builder come again. The same procedure was applied. Now that winter is here, we are having rain and snow conditions and seeing an increase in water stains and wetness on the ceiling and wall in the same spot. The builder is telling us that it is due to condensation on the outside of the radon pipe in the attic caused by the temperature changes outside versus inside. It's very hard to agree with this explanation of his because we are only seeing it on days of rain or snow, not on days of normal conditions.

We are told by the builder that we need to run a dehumidifier constantly and the kitchen vents at least an hour each day to help with the humid inside conditions. We run the air vents for an hour+ during and after showers and when cooking. He installed 2 vents similar to the bathroom vents over the stove area in the kitchen. We still have mold growing on practically every windowsill and in the excess drain hole in the upstairs bathroom. Our daughter has a 30 gallon fish tank with several fish and live plants in it. When we open her door we immediately notice a strong musty smell. Also, her windowsills and windows have a greater mold growth on them.

Another problem is the laminate hardwood flooring in front of the sliding door on the first level. We have noticed the flooring is bubbling and separating at the seams all across the door. The door is used seldom as it is NOT our main entrance. We see no water on top of the floor, but appears moisture is somehow getting in underneath between the flooring and concrete slab. The bubbled area is very cold and moist "feeling" and is getting larger. The affected area at present is approximately 4'x6' in front of the sliding door. We also have radiant heat. During the past 2 days of rain, we noticed a small amount of water is coming in along the inside tracking of the sliding door as well. No flashing was installed during the building process, but we were told that the door is made with built-in welded J-channeling. We have contacted the builder several times, but nothing has been resolved.

Our greatest concerns with all of this is mold, as asthma is a medical condition affecting 2 of us in the home. We would be grateful for any suggestions. We have a one year builders guarantee on the home but we have found out that the builder has a terrible reputation and is again going through bankruptcy and several major lawsuits with other home owners and major building supply companies.

We're desperate for HELP!!!
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Find an attorney that specializes in construction deficiencies and turn them loose on the builder.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Durwood,

If cracks in the boot of your radon exhaust pipe are cracked, and an expert has confirmed this, you need a need boot installed. It should not be a difficult replacement if you use a trained roofer. Adding tar and silicon will NOT necessarily solve the problem as the builder has done. Forget fighting the builder as they're bankrupt...again.
'
In regards to "super air tight" homes, you'll need mechanical air flow and a good air flow system since you desire control of all the air coming in and out of your home. This is, by design, high maintenance. With no air flow (in conjunction with an overly powerful HVAC system), you could see sweating in the house (but not leaks). Air systems that cool/heat over a period of time will tend to dry the air. If they're really strong, they make your house the desired temperature so quickly, even the moist air reaches proper temperature but isn't circulated enough to dry it bit.

Anyway...I've learned this lessons as a home owner and investment property owner - especially the cracked boots on roof soil stacks (exhaust pipes). But, I'm no engineer...just a dude who has been handed the bills before, so take this post as amateur advice from the school of hard knocks.

Fix your house w/ a roofer first - New boot, no applications of glue or tar or sealant. Good Luck. Sounds like you're living in a bit of a terrarium environment according to your description.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
an 'airtight' home is an oxymoron

you will need to provide one complete air exchange every 10 hours for health and safety reasons

since your home was built 'super airtight' you will need to provide mechanical ventilation AND heat exchange devices (to avoid HUGE utility bills) ~ high maintenance indeed

speak to an actual architect or engineer

CAVEAT EMPTOR
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
eg.

1500 sq ft home with 8 ft ceiling = 12,000 cubic ft

12,000 / 10 = 1,200 cu ft / 60 min = 20 cfm exhaust running CONTINUOUSLY

where to locate said fan ? -> see engineer/architect

where to locate 'makeup' air intake ? -> see engineer/architect

heat exchangers for efficiency ? -> see engineer/architect

ps. i deliberately left my own home somewhat 'loose' in order to eliminate ventilation issues ~ when you run your bath exhaust where does the makeup air come from if you are 'super airtight'?

best of luck - you will need it -
DurwoodD (Maine)
Posts: 5
Posted:
We considered an attorney, but were told by others including city officials that it would be a waste of our time and the retainer $ due to the large amount of lawsuits already against him. It would take several years before they would even get to our case. But thanks for the suggestion. Now we're just looking for some thoughts on what might be causing the problems and how we might go about to approach someone to fix them.
DurwoodD (Maine)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Thanks JohnB...we will look into that for sure. Sounds like we're "deep" in this!

So, if I climb up there in the attic crawl space and attempt to get across to the problem area to investigate a little, will it disturb the insulation, causing it to not maintain heat/cool properly? There is no flooring up there. I will have to make a path with a board or something of that nature.

Also, the builder suggested cutting the radon pipe below the roof level and have it "vent" into the attic space. We don't know of any radon issues so it's not really used, only there because it's code, but will that be a safe ventilation if radon is ever present and we do need to utilize that pipe? We aren't allowing him to do any of the work at this point, we're done with him but just curious if his "fix idea" is a safe idea...
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I read your post and may have a little onorthodox theory of your issue. It's kind of 2 parts. The first being that it most likely indeed is a condensation issue with the radon pipe. I am sure it sits in the attic area of your home. Which is now where my second part comes in. Your issues lie within your roof/attic area. The attic is not correctly insulated and ventilated. You may need to install or even uninstall some ventilation up there. When the moisture level changes, the water condenses on your piping causing the water to drip down to your ceiling tiles.

The other issues could also be associated with your roof/attic set up. Including what is going on with your window seals. Something doesn't sound right in the attic/roof set up. Not exactly poor construction issues. It's most likely built correctly. The issue is that the "theory" of how that is supposed to work doesn't.

I actually seen this issue on a "Ask This Old House" episode. It may have been one from last year. The owner wanted to install a vent for their bathroom and they had to go through the roof/attic area. Tommy pointed out the ventilation/insulation issues in the attic. What he described is exactly what your issue is. Sorry I can't remember the exact episode but they available online. I've also helped build over 28 houses from scratch with Habitat for Humanity and remodel houses. A little familiar with construction. I would get a roof expert out to do an evaluation of the inside of your roof.

Former HOA President
DurwoodD (Maine)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Kelly that's what we thought too! But they insisted another one would crack too because they "just don't fit properly!" We are having a hard time finding credible contractors/builders around here.
DurwoodD (Maine)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Melissa, it's a four sided roof, not like a traditional two sided. It has a ridge vent and a soffit vent. Is that a ventilation issue? We never thought of this angle!
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Sounds like you have a "Hip roof". (Sorry for the mispelling but you hear it pronounced that way). They are a better roof design and less likely to fly off in high winds. However, they are not without their issues. You may be defeating your own purposes with how your roof ventilation is setup. I would check to make sure that wherever the wires come up through the walls to the attic is insulated. A can of expanding foam usually is sprayed wherever the wires go up to the attic from the walls. This may help lead you in the correct direction and help with heat loss issues.

Again I am NOT an expert on this but have heard about how this could be an issue in many homes. The episode I saw they had to do away with one of the ventilation fans in the attic to redirect the air to the way the attic is supossed to be designed to work.

Keep in mind this doesn't mean the builder did a bad job. They may not know. Someone can do something the same way for 20 years but not realize they are doing it wrong. Like I said this sometimes is even common practice by multiple builders. That is why I encourage seeing if you can get an energy audit done or a second construction opinion in this area.

Former HOA President
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DurwoodD on 12/22/2012 7:16 PM
We considered an attorney, but were told by others including city officials that it would be a waste of our time and the retainer $ due to the large amount of lawsuits already against him. It would take several years before they would even get to our case. But thanks for the suggestion. Now we're just looking for some thoughts on what might be causing the problems and how we might go about to approach someone to fix them.

Durwood,

Get your legal advice from an attorney, not city officials who may share in the liability for allowing this mess to be built.

As others have said, contact an engineer to find a remedy to this issue.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Durwood,

There is someone near you who can certainly install a pipe boot. If not, the "Pipe Boot People" wouldn't stay in business.

Great advice on the attorney from the above post. City inspectors were on your job AS it was being constructed. They approved it all.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I found the article I was looking for. It is on the "This Old House" website. Search for "Improving Attic Insulation". I've copied and pasted the first page of the article below for you. The second page covers how to actually do the installation of the Soffit Vents. Which may help you if you don't have them.

For most of us, the attic is a place to store clothes, luggage and old family photos, but for energy researchers it's a hot topic of discussion. In the last several decades, building codes have called for increased attic insulation. Most experts contend that a well-ventilated attic keeps the house more comfortable in summer and guards against moist, heated air building up in winter. There are also dissenting voices who say that the benefits of ventilation are overrated.

Who's right? Obviously more research is needed, but here's what we do know:
• Don't avoid ventilating your attic for fear you're letting cold air into the house. Your actual living space is sealed and insulated at the attic floor—the attic is outside this envelope.
• If there are asphalt shingles on your roof, the attic must be ventilated to comply with the terms of the manufacturer's warranty.
• One reason for the lack of agreement over attic ventilation is the tremendous variation in climate across North America. Rarely will you find a building practice that works everywhere.

For instance, attic ventilation is used widely in cold climates to evacuate the warm, moist air that escapes from the living space below. If this air lingers, it can condense on the underside of the roof sheathing and rot it. A healthy airflow also helps with ice dams, which begin to form when warm air in the attic melts the snow from beneath and creates runoff that refreezes on the colder eave. Great, but neither of these problems is experienced in warmer climates.

Our suggestion? If your home is fitted solely with small gable-end vents or a ventilator high in the roof, you might want to consider adding soffit vents to increase airflow. These vents allow outside air to enter the attic at the lowest point of the roof—along the underside of the eave. They're most effective when used in conjunction with a continuous ridge vent.

For some reason this article seemed to jump out at me when you started talking about your situation. That is why I put you toward your attic as a solution to your issues. You live in Maine so this is a solution that is more geared toward the colder environments. I would check to see if you do have some soffit vents. It could explain many areas of your condensation issues. They could be blocked even. Good luck!

Former HOA President

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