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MaureenM1 (PA)
Posts: 344
Posted:
I live in PA and am the President of an HOA Assocation with 40 homes. We had our annual meeting this week there were 5 homeowners and 1 investor who owns 12 homes.

The investor who is an attorney made a motion from the floor regarding a gate vote and all in the audience approved. The motion was that the Board would have no input in the vote on whether or not our development would replace the gates that have never been operational only the homeowners (all five members of the board are homeowners). One of the board members asked that he reword his motion to in "conjuntion" with the board and he said he would not.

I told him and the homeowners that we would need to consult with our attorney as our board was told that the Board had the authority to make this decision and as to whether or not this motion is valid.

The investor then went on to say that he could amend the bylaws right at that meeting but was playing nice!!! Our PM stepped in and told him could not amend bylaws becuase our bylaws need 68 percent of the vote of the association and on some votes need 100 percent. Did he think that if he had 68 percent of the vote at the meeting he could change the bylaws???

The next day we consulted our attorney and am awaiting his answer. Any advice in the meantime would be appreciated.

thanks,
Maureen
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I do think it was handled correctly.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
You need to realize that ALL of you are homeowners. Only owners are members of a HOA when it's no longer under the developer's control. Your "investor" just happens to own 12 of the properties. He's NOT the ruler of them all.

I agree with Tim. Unfortunately, it seems to absolute no insult in saying this intended, but your HOA is a bit "over-lawyered". Meaning your are all depending on results from a lawyer an outside source to help make your decisions. It may be time to try to educate yourselves on the CC&R's and by-laws of your own community. This lawyer/investor is going to walk all over you if you all don't. The power the HOA/board has is all in the documents. I'd suggest reading them and taking the time to ask assistance in translating. Otherwise, I see you all really loading yourselves on unneccessary debt and heartache considering most of this can be handled in house...

Former HOA President
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Maureen you and your fellow Board members need to understand the difference between the powers of the homeowners and the duties and powers of the Board. I downloaded the following years ago from (I think) davis-stirling.com and while there are certain items that are specific to California it is a good explanation of the differences.

Powers of Board and Membership

Associations are not pure democracies where members can vote on all issues. Instead, they are representative democracies where powers are delegated to elected representatives (the board of directors) and certain limited powers are reserved to the membership. Representative democracy is the model used throughout the Western world.

Membership Authority. The rights/powers reserved to owners are described in the governing documents and are generally limited to the following powers:
to elect a board of directors
to remove directors from the board
to call special meetings of the membership
to amend the CC&Rs and bylaws
to approve regular assessments over 20% and special assessments over 5% (CA Law)
to attend open meetings of the board
to access their property
to use the common areas
to inspect the association's records

No Veto Power. Because of the division of authority between the membership and the board, members do not have a direct veto over the board's actions (except for rule changes (CA Law)). Rather, the power to veto is indirect. If members are unhappy with board actions (or inaction), the membership can remove the board or wait until the annual meeting and elect a new board.

Board Authority. By law, corporations must have boards of directors. The powers delegated to boards generally include the following:
manage the association
adopt and enforce rules and regulations
enforce the CC&Rs and bylaws
contract for services
levy and collect regular assessments
levy and collect special assessments up to 5% without membership approval (CA Law Limit)
levy and collect emergency special assessments
pay expenses incurred by the association
prepare and adopt budgets
repair and maintain the common areas
insure the association
disburse reserve monies
invest funds
call membership meetings and appoint inspectors of election
appoint and remove officers
appoint directors to fill vacancies
establish and dissolve committees
initiate and defend litigation

Judicial Deference. Courts will defer to board decisions, even if the decisions are not the "best" decisions, provided the board made a reasonable investigation, and its decision was in good faith with the best interests of the association in mind.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Maureen:

Sounds to me like YOUR attorney, like most, is a horse's ___. And I agree there should have been no need to nonw add the cost of running this nonsense by an attorney.

The Board members ARE homeowners and IMO the lawyer nor anyone else can vote to prevent you from having a vote on such an item.

And in my opinion the homeowners would not be asked to vote on such an item as this is maintenance which IMO is the role of the Board to handle.

Like many lawyers this potatoe head thinks his law degree gives him ultimate authority. It does not. And as far as his claim to be able to amend the By-Laws at the meeting again I think this would be more hot air.

As suggested I would work to understand the governing documents and hope the rest of the Board does the same. If not this lawyer could cause trouble for you going forward throwing his ownership of 12 units around and seeking to impose his will and agenda on the property.

Bullies win when no one stands up to them. He attmepted to remove any authority the Board might have in this gate decision he was way out of line unless you set him straight.
MaureenM1 (PA)
Posts: 344
Posted:
thank you all for your comments and advise. I have studied our bylaws/CCR's for years, and know them, however one of our board members is a Township Manager who does not know our bylaws and is ALWAYS questioning the Board. She was talking against our board to the homeowners (including the investor) at the meeting. She knows the investor and the investor called our PM to endorse her for relection to the board. She is constantly undermining the board and calling the attorney.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
May I suggest cutting off the lawyer contact by any board member at will? ALL the owners are paying for this bill. Whenever I hired a lawyer for our HOA, I would be the ONLY one with contact with the lawyer as President. The issue would be discussed with ALL the members and BOD, but only 1 source was allowed to correspond with the actual lawyer of the HOA. This saves in costs and stops the behind the back activities. Again, a change in policy on how things are done may need addressed here.

Former HOA President
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I agree with Melissa.

Our attorney is only contacted if approved by the Board.
The Board actually votes on the wording of the question/s and then only one person, the President, sends the message but copies all other board members.

This minimizes unnecessary expenses and keeps individuals from thinking the Association attorney is their personal attorney.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Melissa offers sound advice. Contacting the Board's atorney should no be an option to each and every Board member.

Very simple, as President you contact the attorney and direct them that you are the contact person for the association not Madam X or anyone else.

They are free to call and discuss other issues besides matters dealing with the Board and if so that bill should be sent to them personally.

I serve as President. No one else is permitted to contact the attorney on our dime but ME. And that has been made clear to everyone.

This is not the Board's member's attorney not do they pay for the time.

Sounds like it is time to tie off some loose ends.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Maureen

Tim and Jon offer sound advice.
MaureenM1 (PA)
Posts: 344
Posted:
The Vice President who was just relected at our Annual Meeting for another term is a Township Manager and thinks everyone works for her, including our attorney. She is not familiar with the CCR's & Bylaws and is alway undermining the board.

She also suggested at our Annual Meeting that all our Board Meetings be opened to the public and our investor suggested that all board minutes be sent to the homeowners after each meeting.

I informed her in an executive session after the Annual Meeting that Board meetings can be held without homeowners attending.Previously I had suggested to have our meetings at the Library instead of my home as it was becoming too familiar. I didn't imply to have homeowners attend our meetings!!!

It is very difficult to deal with this board member because she wants to run our Association like you would a Township. where all board meetings must are opened to the public and must comply with the Open Public Meetings Act.(Right to Kmow laws)

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Maureen,

In an Association, the public is different than the membership.

I agree that the meetings should be open to the members. They should not be open to the public.

I also agree that the minutes of the meetings should be available to those members (and members only) who want them. We post our approved minutes on the Associations website in the members only area (password protected). Draft minutes are typically not posted.

Don't fault that member too much as it appears the intent is good. Try to educate them on what laws are applicable to your Association.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 12/20/2012 6:12 AM
Maureen,

In an Association, the public is different than the membership.

I agree that the meetings should be open to the members. They should not be open to the public.

I also agree that the minutes of the meetings should be available to those members (and members only) who want them. We post our approved minutes on the Associations website in the members only area (password protected). Draft minutes are typically not posted.

Don't fault that member too much as it appears the intent is good. Try to educate them on what laws are applicable to your Association.

I agree. Keep it open and inform all, otherwise you are "controlling" and others will not be happy.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Let me put this in perspective on the meetings/budget of a HOA...Example: You are married with 3 kids. The checkbook (budget) of your family is to sit in the middle of the dining room table open. Everyone in your family has a say in how the money is spent. Considering you may be the breadwinner and main contributor, the control falls under your control in your mind. That is what a HOA BOD feels like. They are in charge of the budget and represent the whole of the HOA, so they should be the ones in control of the money. This is why so many issues arise with people feeling the BOD is out of control with the budget or secretive. As one of the kids If the budget/checkbook is sitting in the middle of the table in the same house your in, why can't you be part of how it is spent?

If you think of your HOA budget in this perspective, then you will understand why a HOA BOD may act they way they do when it comes to the budget. It's difficult to release that kind of control if you have a 10 year old who wants an X-box and the mortgage is due...


Former HOA President
MaureenM1 (PA)
Posts: 344
Posted:
I am now hearing from the Vice President who contacted the attorney that she had more questions for him (did not tell us what they were) and that our attorney is frustrated because he has to answer her questions and was not at the meeting.

I am the President and today sent out an email that the Board will be implementing the suggestions made in this blog (ie board decides to contact attorney and prepares questions and President only contacts attorney).

Do other associations have their attorney present at the annual meetings? Our developer did when he was in control.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaureenM1 on 12/19/2012 2:38 PM
thank you all for your comments and advise. I have studied our bylaws/CCR's for years, and know them, however one of our board members is a Township Manager who does not know our bylaws and is ALWAYS questioning the Board. She was talking against our board to the homeowners (including the investor) at the meeting. She knows the investor and the investor called our PM to endorse her for relection to the board. She is constantly undermining the board and calling the attorney.


Are you saying that this board member is constantly calling the association's attorney or that she is calling the attorney who owns the 12 units?

The board can vote to put the kabosh on her calling the association's attorney but cannot prevent her from having contact with the attorney who owns the 12 units.

MaureenM1 (PA)
Posts: 344
Posted:
she calls the attorney. The investor who owns the 12 units is an attorney but NOT the board attorney.
MaureenM1 (PA)
Posts: 344
Posted:
she calls the attorney. The investor who owns the 12 units is an attorney but NOT the board attorney.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
The board approves expenses, including attorney invoices. If the board decides to institute a process for contacting the law firm for advice, then the attorney is free to talk w/ your new board member "free of charge" if unofficial calls are made. Your dues payers shouldn't subsidize a board director's daily whims for advice. The attorney will tire of this behavior.

By the way, if no homeowners attend your annual meeting, who controls the proxies that help you reach quorum? Those proxies are good for votes that would defeat anyone's floor amendment.

Besides, your property owners who live in the community would be foolish to follow the lead of a 12-unit owning landlord. It's called a "home owners association" and not an "investment property owners association." Some of my board's biggest headaches come from landlords who get ticked because we raise dues to track inflation and spend money on such "corrupt" things as regular maintenance.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
The association's attorney is there to serve the needs of the board and not a single board member. As consultation with the attorney generates an expense, no board member should be calling the attorney without the express consent of the rest of the board.

BTW, any time a board member poses a question to the attorney, both the question and the answer should be in writing. Never under any circumstance would I accept the word of a board member who reports, "But the attorney told me . . ." It's not a question of honesty but rather a question of understanding. If the board member does not fully understand the advice and the legal reasons behind it he/she will report back with a muddled message.

Answers to legal questions usually depend upon the facts stated in the question. Change a single fact and the entire answer may change. This is why you need to know what the question was as well as the answer.

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