StacyS (Florida)
Posts: 19
Posts: 19
Posted:
Florida HOA - Is ok to list the members name & address in our meeting minuts who are delinquent paying their dues? I thought it was against the 720 statutes, but I can't find it listed.
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HOA FL listing members who are delinquent paying dues
Started by StacyS • 22 replies • 2567 views
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TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
This has been discussed several times on this site.
Opinion tends to boil down to, if statutes allow members to access financial information of other lots then it is likely legal to post this information in the Association newsletter. If you want a legal opinion, you will need to ask your attorney.
The correct question is should the board post them.
Some say yes, some say no. It depends on the Boards opinion if it's beneficial to do so.
Here are some links to other threads about this topic:
Subject: HOA to make public a list of the names of its members owing HOA dues
Subject: Breach of confidentiality
Subject: is it legal for hoa to release names and addresses
Subject: Is it legal for the HOA to post members that are delinquent on their dues on a public web-site
Subject: posting list of owners who have paid.
Personally, I say don't do it. It's fine to list that x number of units are x days behind in assessments but who those individuals are, in my opinion, is only the business of the Treasurer and that individual until additional collection practices (turning it over to an attorney, filing a lien, etc.) has to be done. Even if the law requires the Association to provide that information when asked, I think it should be done only when asked.
Opinion tends to boil down to, if statutes allow members to access financial information of other lots then it is likely legal to post this information in the Association newsletter. If you want a legal opinion, you will need to ask your attorney.
The correct question is should the board post them.
Some say yes, some say no. It depends on the Boards opinion if it's beneficial to do so.
Here are some links to other threads about this topic:
Subject: HOA to make public a list of the names of its members owing HOA dues
Subject: Breach of confidentiality
Subject: is it legal for hoa to release names and addresses
Subject: Is it legal for the HOA to post members that are delinquent on their dues on a public web-site
Subject: posting list of owners who have paid.
Personally, I say don't do it. It's fine to list that x number of units are x days behind in assessments but who those individuals are, in my opinion, is only the business of the Treasurer and that individual until additional collection practices (turning it over to an attorney, filing a lien, etc.) has to be done. Even if the law requires the Association to provide that information when asked, I think it should be done only when asked.
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
I recently attended a CAI legal seminar it which this topic was discussed.
The general opinion was providing this information was legal.
The suggestions made were not to list a specific amount to the penny as it is constantly changing.
The other list the property by address only not naming the owner.
This was in an attempt to push those not paying into making payments.
The general opinion was providing this information was legal.
The suggestions made were not to list a specific amount to the penny as it is constantly changing.
The other list the property by address only not naming the owner.
This was in an attempt to push those not paying into making payments.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I think "shaming" (releasing the names/addresses and amounts of back dues/assessments owed) is acceptable. I say this for dues/assessments only as other things (fines, etc.) can be very subjective.
Before "shaming", I think every effort should be made to work with those deliquent to come up to date but once it cannot be done then I say "shaming" is a valid method.
Before "shaming", I think every effort should be made to work with those deliquent to come up to date but once it cannot be done then I say "shaming" is a valid method.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
Just my guess that it wouldn't be that effective. Those that are running behind probably have more concerns than their name being published in a Newsletter. It is my opinion that the Assn should work privately with a delinquent member to try to set up some sort of payment plan. A little cash flow is better than no cash flow.
Paul T
Paul T
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/14/2012 3:01 PM
Before "shaming", I think every effort should be made to work with those delinquent to come up to date but once it cannot be done then I say "shaming" is a valid method.
Before "shaming", I think every effort should be made to work with those delinquent to come up to date but once it cannot be done then I say "shaming" is a valid method.
Those who can pay will likely pay without the shaming if the Association works with them.
Those who can not pay are probably feeling enough shame and adding more won't change anything.
Those who have chosen not to pay probably can't be shamed.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 11/14/2012 3:44 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/14/2012 3:01 PM
Before "shaming", I think every effort should be made to work with those delinquent to come up to date but once it cannot be done then I say "shaming" is a valid method.
Before "shaming", I think every effort should be made to work with those delinquent to come up to date but once it cannot be done then I say "shaming" is a valid method.
Those who can pay will likely pay without the shaming if the Association works with them.
Those who can not pay are probably feeling enough shame and adding more won't change anything.
Those who have chosen not to pay probably can't be shamed.
That is what I was trying to say, but you did it better.
Paul T
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulT6 on 11/14/2012 4:09 PM
Those who can pay will likely pay without the shaming if the Association works with them.
Those who can not pay are probably feeling enough shame and adding more won't change anything.
Those who have chosen not to pay probably can't be shamed.
Posted By TimB4 on 11/14/2012 3:44 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/14/2012 3:01 PM
Before "shaming", I think every effort should be made to work with those delinquent to come up to date but once it cannot be done then I say "shaming" is a valid method.
Before "shaming", I think every effort should be made to work with those delinquent to come up to date but once it cannot be done then I say "shaming" is a valid method.
Those who can pay will likely pay without the shaming if the Association works with them.
Those who can not pay are probably feeling enough shame and adding more won't change anything.
Those who have chosen not to pay probably can't be shamed.
That is what I was trying to say, but you did it better.
Paul T
We can agree to disagree.
I think "shaming" is one of many valid tools and it does work for some.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/14/2012 5:04 PM
That is what I was trying to say, but you did it better.
Paul T
Posted By PaulT6 on 11/14/2012 4:09 PM
Those who can pay will likely pay without the shaming if the Association works with them.
Those who can not pay are probably feeling enough shame and adding more won't change anything.
Those who have chosen not to pay probably can't be shamed.
Posted By TimB4 on 11/14/2012 3:44 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/14/2012 3:01 PM
Before "shaming", I think every effort should be made to work with those delinquent to come up to date but once it cannot be done then I say "shaming" is a valid method.
Before "shaming", I think every effort should be made to work with those delinquent to come up to date but once it cannot be done then I say "shaming" is a valid method.
Those who can pay will likely pay without the shaming if the Association works with them.
Those who can not pay are probably feeling enough shame and adding more won't change anything.
Those who have chosen not to pay probably can't be shamed.
That is what I was trying to say, but you did it better.
Paul T
I think before shaming you better do two things:
1. make sure the information you post is 100% accurate, boards have been known to make mistakes and this could be a nightmare of a mistake if you post misinformation
2. Understand the situation, we recently had a couple whose wife was dying of cancer, they obviously had more important things to attend to than our dues and ultimately lost their house as well and she recently died. What kind of heartless animals would we look like in that circumstance.
I have said this before, HOA's get a bad rap and some of it is earned. However, why take heat that you don't have to. I am up to date on my assessments but i would be upset if our HOA decided to publish those names, there are better ways to handle it.
We can agree to disagree.
I think "shaming" is one of many valid tools and it does work for some.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
I dont believe shaming people into paying is effective. That said, I do believe in informing all the HOA members of the financial, also including which addresses have paid dues and those who have not. Its transparency. Members have the right to know about the financial health of the HOA and the details behind them.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 11/14/2012 3:44 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/14/2012 3:01 PM
Before "shaming", I think every effort should be made to work with those delinquent to come up to date but once it cannot be done then I say "shaming" is a valid method.
Before "shaming", I think every effort should be made to work with those delinquent to come up to date but once it cannot be done then I say "shaming" is a valid method.
Those who can pay will likely pay without the shaming if the Association works with them.
Those who can not pay are probably feeling enough shame and adding more won't change anything.
Those who have chosen not to pay probably can't be shamed.
Tim is right on. So, now the Members know Member "X" is having financial difficulties. I doubt anyone will knock on "X's" door and demand he pay his assessment and as Tim said,
"Those who have chosen not to pay probably can't be shamed."
Paul T
JamesP9 (Colorado)
Posts: 13
Posts: 13
Posted:
Good answer!
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 11/15/2012 7:53 AM
I dont believe shaming people into paying is effective. That said, I do believe in informing all the HOA members of the financial . . . Its transparency.
I dont believe shaming people into paying is effective. That said, I do believe in informing all the HOA members of the financial . . . Its transparency.
Steve,
I agree in transparency.
I believe that you can be transparent by reporting:
x lots are 30 days delinquent
x lots are 60 days delinquent
x lots are 90 days delinquent
x lots are >90 days delinquent
x lots have been turned over to legal for collections
Tim
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 11/15/2012 9:34 AM
Posted By SteveM9 on 11/15/2012 7:53 AM
I dont believe shaming people into paying is effective. That said, I do believe in informing all the HOA members of the financial . . . Its transparency.
I dont believe shaming people into paying is effective. That said, I do believe in informing all the HOA members of the financial . . . Its transparency.
Steve,
I agree in transparency.
I believe that you can be transparent by reporting:
x lots are 30 days delinquent
x lots are 60 days delinquent
x lots are 90 days delinquent
x lots are >90 days delinquent
x lots have been turned over to legal for collections
Tim
Tim
That is a very informative way of doing such.....but the real question here is posting the names of owner(s) beyond a certain point.
Do you believe in posting the owner(s) name at any time?
Thanks
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/15/2012 9:39 AM
Do you believe in posting the owner(s) name at any time?
Do you believe in posting the owner(s) name at any time?
Not for delinquencies or violations.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Shoot, hit submit before I was done.
I believe in reporting the number of delinquencies but not who.
It serves no real purpose in my mind.
I do believe that for a some people the fear of having their name listed may be a deterrent but I don't believe that that number is large enough when weighed against other people who believe it's an invasion of privacy or no one's business but the parties involved (and that's not always the people who are being listed).
I believe in reporting the violation but not where the violation is.
Those who live by it already know who it is and the purpose of reporting the violation is to make others aware(like police reporting activity in the neighborhood but not the actual house number) and hopefully they won't be guilty of the same violation.
I believe in reporting the number of delinquencies but not who.
It serves no real purpose in my mind.
I do believe that for a some people the fear of having their name listed may be a deterrent but I don't believe that that number is large enough when weighed against other people who believe it's an invasion of privacy or no one's business but the parties involved (and that's not always the people who are being listed).
I believe in reporting the violation but not where the violation is.
Those who live by it already know who it is and the purpose of reporting the violation is to make others aware(like police reporting activity in the neighborhood but not the actual house number) and hopefully they won't be guilty of the same violation.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
Sometime back our Committee considered publishing the names of past due assessments and fines. Our full time in house attorney almost went into cardiac arrest.
Paul T
Paul T
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulT6 on 11/15/2012 10:38 AM
Sometime back our Committee considered publishing the names of past due assessments and fines. Our full time in house attorney almost went into cardiac arrest.
Paul T
Sometime back our Committee considered publishing the names of past due assessments and fines. Our full time in house attorney almost went into cardiac arrest.
Paul T
probably because he was afraid of the outcome if you accidentally published a wrong name or inaccurate information....too risky
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
By purchasing property within an HOA, the homeowner has entered into a contract with every other homeowner. Parties to contracts have a legitimate interest in knowing who is and who is not performing their part of the bargain.
That said, I see no good reason to put the names of delinquent members on a billboard. If a member asks for a list of delinquencies, the association should disclose the details.
When I ran for the board several years ago, I was told that I was not in good standing. Half the other candidates were told the same thing. Turns out the management company we used then had the books completely screwed up. All of has had paid and had proof of our payments. What would happen if they had published a list of non-payers that was wrong?
That said, I see no good reason to put the names of delinquent members on a billboard. If a member asks for a list of delinquencies, the association should disclose the details.
When I ran for the board several years ago, I was told that I was not in good standing. Half the other candidates were told the same thing. Turns out the management company we used then had the books completely screwed up. All of has had paid and had proof of our payments. What would happen if they had published a list of non-payers that was wrong?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 11/15/2012 12:27 PM
That said, I see no good reason to put the names of delinquent members on a billboard. If a member asks for a list of delinquencies, the association should disclose the details.
That said, I see no good reason to put the names of delinquent members on a billboard. If a member asks for a list of delinquencies, the association should disclose the details.
That sounds reasonable.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
When I ran for the board several years ago, I was told that I was not in good standing. Half the other candidates were told the same thing. Turns out the management company we used then had the books completely screwed up. All of has had paid and had proof of our payments. What would happen if they had published a list of non-payers that was wrong?
What would have happened? All of you would have found out immediately the books were wrong. Not years later.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
If you go to city hall, they will give you exact names of people who owe back taxes, how much, address, fines, complaints about your property, etc. The HOA isn't some kind of secret society that members dues need to be a well kept secret. Just be transparent like your city. They are transparent for a reason.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Lien and foreclosure filings are PUBLIC information and printed in the local newspaper. It is part of the lien/foreclosure process. This does NOT lend the HOA to reveal this information. They can just say they are pursuing legal recourse or unpaid dues. That's all anyone needs to know is if their HOA is taking actions. Nothing more.
We kept the information just within the board members. We did not reveal people's names and just referred to the lot #'s. I just let people know what actions we were taking to collect. Plus we had an established policy that at 6 months behind in dues we would lien. After a year we would then discuss foreclosure options. As long as people understood we didn't play around with the 6 months lien policy, it didn't matter revealing names. Just that we were taking action. That's what is all boils down to. Making sure the HOA takes action on non-payers. A solid policy does this.
We kept the information just within the board members. We did not reveal people's names and just referred to the lot #'s. I just let people know what actions we were taking to collect. Plus we had an established policy that at 6 months behind in dues we would lien. After a year we would then discuss foreclosure options. As long as people understood we didn't play around with the 6 months lien policy, it didn't matter revealing names. Just that we were taking action. That's what is all boils down to. Making sure the HOA takes action on non-payers. A solid policy does this.
Former HOA President
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