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ElizabethV1 (California)
Posts: 11
Posted:
We bought and installed an outdoor propane heater on our deck at the beginning of September. In October, new "by-laws" were issued by the Board stating that residents may only have propane grills on their decks and may not use or have charcoal grills or propane heaters on their decks. I received a notice from the management company advising that the Board had requested that we remove the heater from our deck. I confirmed with the management company that, at the time we purchased and placed the heater on our deck, there was no rule prohibiting the use of such devices. According to the management company, the new rule was created by the board and went into effect October 2012.

Two points/questions. First, it seems that they are trying to enforce the rule in an ex post facto fashion. The management company has admitted that there was no rule prohibiting the use of the propane heater when we purchased and installed it. Second, I question whether this rule, or any of the other new and frivolous rules enacted as of October 2012 are even valid. They appear to have been created during the course of the Board's private sessions this year as we have only one publicly noticed meeting each year that is held in March. It is unlikely that any new rules were created and ratified by a majority of the residents in March, but not enacted until October.

Thoughts? Suggestions on how to handle the issue?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Were you required to get prior permission to place/install the heater?

If not, then I think you need to comply with the new rule.
If you did receive prior authorization, I would consider you grandfathered.

NOTE: Grandfathering is not automatic. If there is no mention of grandfathering in the new rules (or there is no general grandfather rule), then there is no grandfathering. However, it is prudent to allow grandfathering in cases where design changes occurred.

Did the Association amend the Bylaws or did the Board adopt a resolution governing limited common elements?

Amending governing documents would require the Board to follow the procedure outlined in the document. Adopting a resolution is a board function and typically just requires a vote by the board and publishing the resolution.

Was the rule based on a decision of the local Fire Marshall or local ordinances?

If this is the basis for the decision, you don't really have options.

The best advice I can offer is to request a meeting with the Board and explain the situation. They may or may not agree with you and allow you to keep it. At the very least, you can ask questions to determine why the rule was made. Perhaps the model of heater you have has safety features that can alleviate the concerns of the Board.

Hope this helps,

Tim
ElizabethV1 (California)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Thanks so much for the info. I believe we are likely stuck, but our HOA is run at the whim of the board members, so we are going to put up a fight before we concede. In answer to your questions:

No, we did not require approval. Prior to the new by-law, no approval was required prior to placing/using heaters, grills, bbqs on the decks. In fact, the by-laws didn't mention the use of heaters and only stated that grills/bbqs must be kept/used on deck areas.

The rule is contained in a publication entitled "Rules and Regulations, October, 2012" and the introduction states that "These rules and regulations are a product of the powers granted to the Board to make reasonable rules and regulations." The management company refers to them as the by-laws. I'm not familiar enough with how an HOA operates to determine whther this is a resolution governing limited common elements or a by-law. Thoughts?

There was no rule or ordinance issued. From what the management company told me, it is based on the Board's fear of fire due to the heater being located near plantings. We are the only owners in our phase of the condo (there are three separate phases, each with their own board, plus the general board). I believe that this new rule is aimed directly at us.

If things progress, we will certainly consider requesting a meeting with the board, but they are not exactly the negotiating type. They seem to have issued this latest round of new rules based on the complaints of a few residents and do not consider the general purpose of the condo. For example, our complex was built in an area that most middle class families can't afford to purchase detached homes in, but desire to live in because of low crime, good schools, etc. The majority of residents have children, but the latest set of rules completely precludes them from using any common spaces for bike riding or playing.

I would appreciate any additional insight/suggestions you might have. Thank you!
ElizabethV1 (California)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElizabethV1 on 11/13/2012 7:35 AM

There was no rule or ordinance issued. From what the management company told me, it is based on the Board's fear of fire due to the heater being located near plantings. We are the only owners in our phase of the condo that have a deck heater (there are three separate phases, each with their own board, plus the general board). I believe that this new rule is aimed directly at us.


CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Well, Elizabeth, it appears that you're discussing your HOA's Rules & Regulations not your bylaws. The latter usually is about how meetings should be held, the notice requirements for meetings, how Board officers are elected/appointed, etc.

Rules & Regs may or may not be one of your governing documents--they are in our HOA. Your covenants--aka CC&Rs-- usually spell out how they and your other governing documents can be changed, e.g., by the Board alone, by a vote of the owners, etc.

A number of owners here have propane heaters that stand about 4-5 tall on their balconies. We are not concerned about them but I can see how there might be concern is the decks, rails or whatever are wood--we're concrete & steel.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Elizabeth, I'm not an expert on New York but as I interpret the New York Fire Code not only should your heater be banned but also any propane grill using the normal 20lb tank unless you are in a duplex. (Emphasis added)

SECTION 3805 PROHIBITED USE OF LP-GAS

3805.1 Unapproved equipment. Liquefied petroleum gas shall not be used for the purpose of operating devices or equipment unless such device or equipment is approved for use with LP-gas.

3805.2 Release to the atmosphere. Liquefied petroleum gas shall not be released to the atmosphere, except through an approved liquid-level gauge or other approved device.

3805.3 Balconies. LP-gas containers with a water capacity greater than 2.5 pounds (1.14 kg) shall not be stored on balconies. LP-gas burners having an LP-gas container with a water capacity greater than 2.5 pounds (1.14 kg) shall not be located on balconies or within 10 feet (3048 mm) of combustible construction.

Exception: One-and two-family dwellings.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
ElizabethV1 (California)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11 on 11/13/2012 8:18 AM
Well, Elizabeth, it appears that you're discussing your HOA's Rules & Regulations not your bylaws. The latter usually is about how meetings should be held, the notice requirements for meetings, how Board officers are elected/appointed, etc.

Rules & Regs may or may not be one of your governing documents--they are in our HOA. Your covenants--aka CC&Rs-- usually spell out how they and your other governing documents can be changed, e.g., by the Board alone, by a vote of the owners, etc.

A number of owners here have propane heaters that stand about 4-5 tall on their balconies. We are not concerned about them but I can see how there might be concern is the decks, rails or whatever are wood--we're concrete & steel.


Carol, thanks for your insight. I have the large declaration book at home, so I will have to go ahead and take a look at it tonight to see how the Rules & Regulations are dealt with and how they are supposed to be amended. I have the latest Rules & Regs document that our management company sent me and I'm attaching it below, just in case anyone feels like taking a look. I find it interesting that they state that the document is basically a reminder of the rules that have been in place since the 1980s, although the management company admits that this rule is brand new and did not go into effect until October 2012. Since we are the only owners in our phase with a heater on our deck, it's hard not to view the new rule as being aimed directly at us.
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ElizabethV1 (California)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 11/13/2012 8:36 AM
Elizabeth, I'm not an expert on New York but as I interpret the New York Fire Code not only should your heater be banned but also any propane grill using the normal 20lb tank unless you are in a duplex. (Emphasis added)

SECTION 3805 PROHIBITED USE OF LP-GAS

3805.1 Unapproved equipment. Liquefied petroleum gas shall not be used for the purpose of operating devices or equipment unless such device or equipment is approved for use with LP-gas.

3805.2 Release to the atmosphere. Liquefied petroleum gas shall not be released to the atmosphere, except through an approved liquid-level gauge or other approved device.

3805.3 Balconies. LP-gas containers with a water capacity greater than 2.5 pounds (1.14 kg) shall not be stored on balconies. LP-gas burners having an LP-gas container with a water capacity greater than 2.5 pounds (1.14 kg) shall not be located on balconies or within 10 feet (3048 mm) of combustible construction.

Exception: One-and two-family dwellings.

Glen,

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, but we are using our heater on a deck, not a balcony. If this law was read to apply to decks as well as to balconies, then it would also preclude the use of propane grills on decks, which I find unlikely.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I think it comes down to a safety issue. Propane heaters are different than propane grills. You will most likely use a propane heater longer and can be forgotten it is left on. A Propane grill is used for shorter time lengths and monitor more closely.

The HOA can vote to change this if there is a concern for such items. If there was never a rule about installing fire pits, but then someone with a fire pit down the road things go awry burning up a home, then fire pits can get banned. That is probably the logic in this decision. Don't take it personally. Your home is making an additional fire risk that your neighbors probably feel very uncomfortable with and want it removed. Simple as that.

Former HOA President
ElizabethV1 (California)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/13/2012 9:44 AM
I think it comes down to a safety issue. Propane heaters are different than propane grills. You will most likely use a propane heater longer and can be forgotten it is left on. A Propane grill is used for shorter time lengths and monitor more closely.

The HOA can vote to change this if there is a concern for such items. If there was never a rule about installing fire pits, but then someone with a fire pit down the road things go awry burning up a home, then fire pits can get banned. That is probably the logic in this decision. Don't take it personally. Your home is making an additional fire risk that your neighbors probably feel very uncomfortable with and want it removed. Simple as that.

Melissa - I appreciate your response, but I do feel that the rule that was enacted was aimed directly at us and it's hard not to take that personally. I am the type of person that believes that if you have an issue or concern with a neighbor, then you should take it up with them directly in a polite, civilized and respectful manner. Unfortunately, our board members do not operate on the same wavelength and will instead refer all complaints through the management company. We have gotten calls and letters from them for various nuisance complaints lodged by our neighbors who are board members. Examples: 1) Notice of complaint when I left a bag of garbage well hidden BEHIND a bush in front of our unit for approximately 30 minutes in anticipation of my husband coming home from work and taking it out to the dumpster. I could not do so because our baby was sleeping inside. 2) Notice of complaint when we left our car parked in guest parking for 5 days while on vacation to allow room for my disabled mother and elderly mother-in-law to park in front of our unit to feed our cats, despite the fact that the rules specifically state that short-term visitor parking may be used for up to 14 days at a time. 3) Notice of complaint when we remodeled our kitchen, even though the work did not require permits and was done only during weekdays during normal business hours. 5) Notice of complaint for having a small wading pool on our deck when our daughter was one, although this is not prohibited in the rules and the president of our board now keeps one on her deck for her dog to use. 6) Notice of complaint for a diesel oil spill that occured in front of our unit when the landscaping crew had to remove a tree planted by the HOA whose roots had grown into our water pipes. The board attempted to require US to go through the expense of environmental remediation.

I know that I will likely lose this battle, but it's really the principle of how the board manages our community that is bothering me, rather than the loss of the deck heater. I also find the rule particularly suspicious in light of the fact that it came out about a month after we put ours up, but there are several owners in other sections who have had heaters on their decks for the past two years or more.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
So it's just how the message is delivered is the problem? Sorry but have to say that makes it taking it personally. You can't control how someone is going to give you a message. The way your HOA is set up is that they go through the Management company to handle complaints and issue letters. The HOA wants to avoid making it personal by using a third party.

We all hate getting complaints about our violations. We just have to suck it up sometimes and take a breath. Are you in violation? Yes. Then correct it. Are you not in violation? Then appeal the decision. In this situation you may be the only person with a propane heater on their deck. Hence why your the one who got the notice. It makes the other HOA members a bit nervous to have someone with a propane heater on their deck.

A few homes in our HOA had fireplaces. Our homes are within 15 feet from eachother in most cases. Some homes even sharing a wall. Our HOA could NOT regulate use of one's fireplace. However, we knew that many of them were neglected and possible fire hazaards. One went up it could easily taken out 3 to 5 houses. We did put out a general notice to everyone around winter time to be aware of their fireplace needs or NOT to use them. Do you think we should have given personal notice to these homeowners with fireplaces? If we did, do you think they would feel singled out and violated if we indicated for them NOT to use their fireplace? We did eventually have a house burn due to a fireplace incident. Luckily it was contained to the one house with minor siding damage to the other homes next door.

The HOA has to think of everyone's safety. Having something that makes people uncomfortable is something the HOA has a right to try to exclude. Sorry you went through all the expense but think of the expense you would go through if it were to burn up your home? Is it worth having then?

Former HOA President
ElizabethV1 (California)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/13/2012 10:47 AM
So it's just how the message is delivered is the problem? Sorry but have to say that makes it taking it personally. You can't control how someone is going to give you a message. The way your HOA is set up is that they go through the Management company to handle complaints and issue letters. The HOA wants to avoid making it personal by using a third party.

We all hate getting complaints about our violations. We just have to suck it up sometimes and take a breath. Are you in violation? Yes. Then correct it. Are you not in violation? Then appeal the decision. In this situation you may be the only person with a propane heater on their deck. Hence why your the one who got the notice. It makes the other HOA members a bit nervous to have someone with a propane heater on their deck.

A few homes in our HOA had fireplaces. Our homes are within 15 feet from eachother in most cases. Some homes even sharing a wall. Our HOA could NOT regulate use of one's fireplace. However, we knew that many of them were neglected and possible fire hazaards. One went up it could easily taken out 3 to 5 houses. We did put out a general notice to everyone around winter time to be aware of their fireplace needs or NOT to use them. Do you think we should have given personal notice to these homeowners with fireplaces? If we did, do you think they would feel singled out and violated if we indicated for them NOT to use their fireplace? We did eventually have a house burn due to a fireplace incident. Luckily it was contained to the one house with minor siding damage to the other homes next door.

The HOA has to think of everyone's safety. Having something that makes people uncomfortable is something the HOA has a right to try to exclude. Sorry you went through all the expense but think of the expense you would go through if it were to burn up your home? Is it worth having then?

I have to respectfully disagree with you. I think that if there was a concern over the saftey of the heater, then the courteous thing to do would be to send a letter or notice describing the concern and giving us a chance to respond in kind. Instead, they enacted a new rule without any input whatsoever from the residents/owners and then sent us a notice telling us we were in violation. If you read my prior post, you would see that the prior notices we received from the management company were for issues that were not actually violations and, instead, were simply complaints lodged by the board members.

With regard to the safety issue, the management company stated that the board's concern was with the proximity of the heater to the plantings. If they had come to us with their concerns prior to issuing the rule, then we could have done something to alleviate their concerns short of simply getting rid of the heater. For example, in response to the concern of the heater's location, we offered to gladly move it to the opposite corner of the deck, where it would not be near either the plantings or the building. I also disagree with your assertions that the heater is unsafe. In fact, if properly attended to, I doubt that it is any more dangerous than a propane grill, which I have seen many neighbors use improperly (i.e. leave unattended for long periods of time while lit).

I concede that we will likely have to dispose of the heater, but before doing so I would understandably like to explore every avenue of keeping it or, at the very least, ensure that the board is not running the HOA for its own benefit and creating new rules to suit its own preferences and ideals.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Do they not need a rule put in place so they can prove one is in violation? If you say there was never a rule before about it, then you would never have been in violation. However, in order for them to show violation they went and established this rule. How they did it without anyone knowing, I don't know. I am sure it was discussed in a meeting. However, the rule is in place now, and the HOA did what it was supposed to do. Send out a notice.

Former HOA President
ElizabethV1 (California)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/13/2012 11:07 AM
Do they not need a rule put in place so they can prove one is in violation? If you say there was never a rule before about it, then you would never have been in violation. However, in order for them to show violation they went and established this rule. How they did it without anyone knowing, I don't know. I am sure it was discussed in a meeting. However, the rule is in place now, and the HOA did what it was supposed to do. Send out a notice.

I agree that there was no rule and they needed to create one in order for us to be in violation. I am just wondering how the rule was created as we have only one public meeting per year, and that is in March. They do not announce any other meetings to give the owners a chance to have input. I also think it unfair to find a person in violation of a rule that did not exist at the time they took the action that is now causing them to be in violation. Owners in other sections have deck heaters and have had them for at least the two years that we have lived there. How could we reasonably have been expected to know that getting a heater would be in violation if there was no rule and others were doing the same thing?
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Just where to begin...... Seems this thread details just how things can go wrong between owners and Boards. Especially when the owners have no real knowledge or understanding of the operations of their own property.

By-Laws and Rules two different things. In many cases the Board does not require an owners vote to change or add to the rules.

New York does not require open meetings. A fact I kneel down and pray my thanks to God each night for.

So IMO the additions to the rules was legal and would withstand an "ex post facto" challenge. So much for that.

Now as was suggested there are in fact NYS fire code rules for the operaion of grills and other fuel burning devices. They were recently drafted and enforced including the use of propane grills. Many owners on our property were forced to remove their grills after having them for years due o the threat they posed in the even some accident occured. ALL chose to obey the laws and decided not "fight it".

Alos there may be insurance issues with the carrier if the property does not enforce fire codes or their own safety standards. This might be the actual cause rather than some suspected personal attack by the Board.

I read through the link provided and NOTHING sounds to me like some rules that are not rational and beneficial to the entire property and all the property owners.

Yes kids, those little darlings who all Moms and Dads think are the apples of everyone's eyes. Well pehaps Mom and Dad see no problem but your neighbors just might value peace and quiet. Part of the Board's role is to provide EVERY resident the most enjoyable setting to live in that they can. Yes kids riding bikes over the lawns you pay someone to maintain, kids playing ball in the parking areas bouncing balls off their neighbors cars, kids ridng in the parking lots while their parents are to busy to watch they don't get run over. Yes not real reason to limit their behavior afterall they can do no wrong!

Seems to me the OP has clearly established an ongoing relationship with the Board and PM, that being one of the PIAs ever property has. Simple rules "you are not permited to leave YOUR garbage on common property at any time". There is no time frame given. 0-5 minutes OK, 5-10 minutes grey area, more than 10 minutes violation. But as with most people who find themselves recieving violations they couldn't abide by the rulkes because they had SPECIAL circumstances. OH............... Now I see...

As a resident I don't want to live in a property in which neighbors leave their trash out of the common property for one minute, 5 minutes or ever. Call me crazy. Now it seems the OP property is located in Westchester and my guess the purchase price was no low end and I can believe that her neighbors would really appreciate it if when they come home or have visitors come over the property is clear of YOUR garbage after having spent a good piece of change to live in a "decent" neighborhood.

I would suggest the OP take the time to read the new set of rules. he Board clearly states the procedure they have taken to update the rules and their request that in order to provide everyone with a positive living experience every owner abide by some simple rules. And with the long history of violations and debates the OP and her Board have had my guess she will be under scrutiny. Not hard to understand.

My suggestion remove the heater, abide by the same rules your neighbors follow and give up the "fight". Under the posted rules there is a fine structure. That is what might come next. But principles and being right can sometimes blind the parties involved into making much more of an issue than was ever required.

In the end read your documents. In the end read your rules and abide by them, NOT YOUR VERSION OR IMPLIED EXCEPTIONS. And don't assume the problem always and completly lies with the Board and PM because in some cases you can either have a role or you could be the entire problem.

Taking your garbage to the garbage dumpster or leaving it INSIDE YOUR property until such time as it can be disposed of properly is not all tha difficult. Nor is it hard to abide by rules that protect YOUR property and the property of all your neighbors. Understanding of course the Board members have to live under all of these same rules.

I would no want a propane tank stored or used on a multi-family housing property. Is it really that hard to understand the Board's decision to prohibit their use?

ElizabethV1 (California)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Jon - You make good and valid points. I agree that rules need to be enforced. I just believe that they need to be enforced fairly against everyone and not at the whim of the board. I was likely in error leaving the trash bag outside for 30 minutes and deserved the phone call. We are going to get rid of the heater as it is now against the rules. But what I would really like to know is how to go about ensuring that the rules are enforced fairly against all residents, even those that are on the board.

Our president, for example, has a toddler swimming pool on her deck for her dog. That was a violation for us (even though it is nowhere stated in the rules), but not for her.

Noise violations early in the morning and late at night. The board president lets her dog out on her deck at 6am in the morning waking the neighbors. This would be a two part violation for us if we had a dog (one part for noise, one part for putting animal out on deck), but not for her because she is the president.

The secretary left her old couch out in the driveway all night awaiting collection by the trash collectors. This would be a violation on two grounds for us (leaving refuse outside, using trash collection for large objects instead of taking them to the dump at your own expense), but was not for her.

The board president leaves her vehicle parked in the common parking in front of the building instead of in her garage or her driveway while she and her husband relocate to Florida for the winter, thus making it impossible to have the space in front of our building cleared by snow plows and forcing neighboring owners to shovel by hand. Not a violation for her, but most certainly would be a violation for us. In fact, on the latest occasion that this happened, the secretary went out and directed the landscapers to dig the President's vehicle out by hand, whereas I was not even allowed to request that the ice or snow be removed from the walkway so that I could safely carry my infant daughter to the car.

No dog walking within 15 feet of a building. Done several times each day by the board president and the secretary but not a violation for them.

I agree that children should not be allowed to play in certain common areas, but the wording would seem to exclude even the use of the playground and walking paths, all of which are defined as "common areas." I also believe that children should be allowed to play in their own driveways if it is not affecting any of their neighbors.

If you more thoroughly read my above post, you would note that we have received complaints from the board for many activities that were not in violation of or against the rules in any way. That is why I take exception to them and to your calling me a PIA. If you knew anything about me and my husband, you would know that we are both extremely hard working public servants who are clean, quiet and keep our unit in exceptional repair, thus helping to preserve the resale value of the units within our complex.

You state that the board should maintain the property for enjoyment of all residents and I thoroughly agree with you on that point. However, in our development, there is not one single parent/head of a family on the board and most rules that they develop are not favorable to families. I therefore fail to see how our board is running the HOA for the enjoyment of the majority and, instead, they give the impression that they are running it to create an environment suitable for their own enjoyment. Over the years, many good families have left simply to avoid the ever increasing restrictions imposed by our board.

My husband was a member of the board at the co-op we own and lived in prior to purchasing our townhouse and they simple did not run things with such a negative attitude. They welcomed comments, suggestions and feedback from the owners and dealt with them as human beings, not as subjects.

I would appreciate it if any future comments provided constructive assistance in dealing with the situation and ensuring that the board is properly enacting/enforcing rules in a fair and consistent manner. If you have personal insults or attacks, please be respectful and keep them to yourself. I am not experienced in how HOAs are run and am genuinely looking for some insight and assistance, not to be told that I am a "PIA."
ElizabethV1 (California)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Jon - You make good and valid points. I agree that rules need to be enforced. I just believe that they need to be enforced fairly against everyone and not at the whim of the board. I was likely in error leaving the trash bag outside for 30 minutes and deserved the phone call. We are going to get rid of the heater as it is now against the rules. But what I would really like to know is how to go about ensuring that the rules are enforced fairly against all residents, even those that are on the board.

Our president, for example, has a toddler swimming pool on her deck for her dog. That was a violation for us (even though it is nowhere stated in the rules), but not for her.

Noise violations early in the morning and late at night. The board president lets her dog out on her deck at 6am in the morning waking the neighbors. This would be a two part violation for us if we had a dog (one part for noise, one part for putting animal out on deck), but not for her because she is the president.

The secretary left her old couch out in the driveway all night awaiting collection by the trash collectors. This would be a violation on two grounds for us (leaving refuse outside, using trash collection for large objects instead of taking them to the dump at your own expense), but was not for her.

The board president leaves her vehicle parked in the common parking in front of the building instead of in her garage or her driveway while she and her husband relocate to Florida for the winter, thus making it impossible to have the space in front of our building cleared by snow plows and forcing neighboring owners to shovel by hand. Not a violation for her, but most certainly would be a violation for us. In fact, on the latest occasion that this happened, the secretary went out and directed the landscapers to dig the President's vehicle out by hand, whereas I was not even allowed to request that the ice or snow be removed from the walkway so that I could safely carry my infant daughter to the car.

No dog walking within 15 feet of a building. Done several times each day by the board president and the secretary but not a violation for them.

I agree that children should not be allowed to play in certain common areas, but the wording would seem to exclude even the use of the playground and walking paths, all of which are defined as "common areas." I also believe that children should be allowed to play in their own driveways if it is not affecting any of their neighbors.

If you more thoroughly read my above post, you would note that we have received complaints from the board for many activities that were not in violation of or against the rules in any way. That is why I take exception to them and to your calling me a PIA. If you knew anything about me and my husband, you would know that we are both extremely hard working public servants who are clean, quiet and keep our unit in exceptional repair, thus helping to preserve the resale value of the units within our complex.

You state that the board should maintain the property for enjoyment of all residents and I thoroughly agree with you on that point. However, in our development, there is not one single parent/head of a family on the board and most rules that they develop are not favorable to families. I therefore fail to see how our board is running the HOA for the enjoyment of the majority and, instead, they give the impression that they are running it to create an environment suitable for their own enjoyment. Over the years, many good families have left simply to avoid the ever increasing restrictions imposed by our board.

My husband was a member of the board at the co-op we own and lived in prior to purchasing our townhouse and they simple did not run things with such a negative attitude. They welcomed comments, suggestions and feedback from the owners and dealt with them as human beings, not as subjects.

I would appreciate it if any future comments provided constructive assistance in dealing with the situation and ensuring that the board is properly enacting/enforcing rules in a fair and consistent manner. If you have personal insults or attacks, please be respectful and keep them to yourself. I am not experienced in how HOAs are run and am genuinely looking for some insight and assistance, not to be told that I am a "PIA."
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
I have served on our Board for 25 years and it never ceases to amaze me the same issues come up over and over again.

You bought into a property that is managed by a Board. I would guess they face election at some point. There were and are now rules that upon you buying agreed to abide by.

Now you feel for some reason your Board is out to get you because of your heater. I can assure you in most cases they have much more important things to do. They can change and impose rules and as I said this does not require owner input as much as you seem to think it should.

Also NY does NOT have an open meeting rule therefore they need to hold one meeting per year open to the owners to satisfy the law. So YOUR belief you should have some input to discussions regarding rules is not based on reality.

You don't like the process by which you were informed. The Board's role is not to live up to YOUR standards of behavior wherebye they spend their time knocking on doors and reminding people of simple, commonsense rules that most kids should be taught in first or second grade. Clean up afer yourself and throw your trash away where it belongs.

Now it seems you have difficulty with how and why rules are enforced around your property. Is this really worth your time? Like the driver who gets pulled over for speeding and remarks others were speeding why do I get the ticket? That's life. You are dealing with human beings and most are not perfect and some just might not act like you want them to.

Now if in fact certain members of the Board fail to abide by the same rules you and everyone else must follow you have several choices. You can live your life and let it go because you are dealing with people and some have flaws and lack the ability to do what others are required to do. AKA firemen, police, lawyers, judges, politicians.

You can take on a crusade to right all the wrongs on your property and perhaps work to remove the Board understanding the cost this will have on you in many ways. Again, is this worth it?

And yes all properties have PIAs. On our property we have people who in 30 years have NEVER had an issue with the Board. While others have a long history of being unable to act in a responsible manner. Believe it or not the members of your Board have many things to do that keep your property running and maintained the least of which is checking the behavior of residents. So when you have to spend time sending out violations, repeated violations it gets old fast.

The Board members give their time free of charge to work in managing your property and investment. Have you ever met them? Have you ever spoken to them one on one? But it seems you have judged them all yourself.

From your previous posts you have had several issues in the past. Each time you see it as being someone else's fault. The garbage was for a few minutes, the parking was because of a disabiliy, the tree work was because the HOA planted a tree and now the heater is directed only at you. See a pattern here? I do. And I have seen it many times before. And while I do not know you or your husband first hand I have dealt wih folks like you many times over the years. Not bad people, just people who have a tough time going along. If once again you have taken personal offense that is on you. For me when we have certain owners over and over again come before the Board it gets old and they are PIAs because it takes up time from our one per month meeting.

So again, I would offer this advice, remove the heater before you get fined. Read the rules and try not to violate them because of some misinterpretation on your part. Bring this matter to an end. Enjoy your life, your family and your home. IMO a heater is no worth the price you might pay.

In recent weeks we have seen people in our area that have lost everything. Their lives will never be the same. Those are situations that require time spent and all of our effort. NOT the new rules in an HOA. Life is short and we need to pick our battles carefully. Some need to be fought and others can be let go. IMO if this is the biggest problem you have I would count my blessings...................

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Elizabeth starts off with one issue she is being cited for (propane heater), then later she goes on and on about other citations (some she admits to) plus she gets personal about some members of the BOD.

Me thinks she might be on the BOD's radar as a PITA. She would be on mine as such.

I could be wrong.

ElizabethV1 (California)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Jon - I again thank you for taking the time to reply to my posts. I will now be leaving this board as I had kindly asked in my previous post that responders refrain from making personal attacks or insults. Before I go, I do have a few answers to your questions.

First point - Yes, we do know our board members. In fact, two of them are long-time family associates, which is one of the reasons we felt we could be happy in this community. Contrary to what you espouse, I still believe that this is a community that can and should be enjoyed by all, not just a few, such as the board members. And no, I am not the only one to feel this way. Several of our neighbors have voiced displeasure over the manner in which our HOA is run, but none have been in a position to run for the board due to work, family and other commitments.

Point two - I appreciate that our board members take time out of their lives to run our HOA. However, I would note that they are all either retired or homemakers with no children or elderly parents to care for. So while I do appreciate their time, the hour that they devote to meetings every other month does not, to me, seem unduly burdensome.

Point three - While observe all of the various infractions made by our board members on a daily basis, I have never once reported them or complained of them to the management company. As you said, we've all got better things to do with our time and our lives, so I don't bother. I only listed their infractions as an example of how our board, to me and to many of my neighbors, seems to rule this community for its own pleasure, rather than for the good of all its residents.

Point four - I already admitted that I made an error when I happened to leave my trash bag out front behind a bush for a few minutes. However, the other so-called violations are untenable. We followed to the letter the rules re: the wading pool on our deck and actually got rid of it when the complaint was lodged, although there was nothing in the rules against having one. We did not violate any parking rule because the rules specifically state in writing that you can use a visitor parking space for up to two weeks. Furthermore, we were in no way responsible for or liable for the clean up of the diesel spill caused by the landscapers, a fact that our adjacent neighbor the board president was well aware of. However, that in now way stopped her from lodging a complaint with the management company or prevented her husband from yelling obscenities at us in front of my young daughter. I in know way alleged that they HOA planted the tree to slight us. I believe at this point that you are reading my statements as you wish to see them, rather than as they are written.

Point five - There is no shame in not knowing the answer to a question, nor in asking the question. There is only shame in belittling those seeking knowledge, rather than providing them with guidance. In my job, I frequently travel away from my family for weeks at a time to provide training to new employees because I truly want to impart knowledge and show them the fair, just and right way of doing things. Apparently I was wrong in thinking that I could come to a forum like this and seek constructive advice and be provided with a safe outlet for venting my frustration.

Point six - As mentioned previously, I had specifically asked that you refrain from making personal attacks or insults. You know nothing about me or my family other than what I have told you, which is little, or what you have incorrectly assumed. Your comment re: firefighters and policemen is deeply offensive to me and I hope to many other readers on this board. My husband is firefighter for the FDNY and he makes sacrifices of himself and our family each time that he works a night tour, misses a holiday or special event, or risks his life to save the life of someone he doesn't know and often has no appreciation for his efforts. He does all of this at a salary that most people in our area would laugh at. On top of that, he is an only child who cares for his elderly mother, and helps me care for my mother who is disabled. He is a good, law-abiding citizen, and I would thank you not to make slanderous remarks about him or his kind. While agree that not all firemen or policemen are fine upstanding citizens, the same can easily be said of teachers, doctors, priests, etc.

Point seven - Yes, many people in our area have lost everything and we are fortunate that we did not. However, we do work incredibly hard and still struggle to make ends meet living in this area and we can't move due to my husband's career and family commitments. We recently refinished our deck and spent $2,000 on supplies, never mind the time and energy my husband devoted to performing the work himself. We did this in contemplation of being able to enjoy our deck through the autumn and spring months with the use of a deck heater. An intention that was in no way in violation of the rules when we undertook our activities late this summer. To you, $2000 for deck supplies and $200 for a heater may be chump change, but for us, that is a big hit.

Point eight - I grew up in a single family household with a disabled mother, absent father and no money for heat, electricity or medicine, and often no money for food. So I know that although my husband work incredibly hard and will never get beyond "middle class" I am truly blessed to have a roof over my head, food on our table, jobs we can depend on, friends to love, family to cherish and a daughter that is the most beautiful creature I have ever met. So yes, now I will be moving on, counting my blessings and counting this as a lesson learned in the true nature and disposition of certain people.
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By n/a on 11/13/2012 4:45 PM
Jon - I again thank you for taking the time to reply to my posts. I will now be leaving this board as I had kindly asked in my previous post that responders refrain from making personal attacks or insults. Before I go, I do have a few answers to your questions.

"When you come to a public forum realiy is you don't get to instruct or arrange how others respond."

First point - Yes, we do know our board members. In fact, two of them are long-time family associates, which is one of the reasons we felt we could be happy in this community. Contrary to what you espouse, I still believe that this is a community that can and should be enjoyed by all, not just a few, such as the board members. And no, I am not the only one to feel this way. Several of our neighbors have voiced displeasure over the manner in which our HOA is run, but none have been in a position to run for the board due to work, family and other commitments.

"I suggested twice now you drop the issue and live your life. Guess you read what you wanted. And not the first time people second guess the Board's acions but they just have no time to give of themselves."

Point two - I appreciate that our board members take time out of their lives to run our HOA. However, I would note that they are all either retired or homemakers with no children or elderly parents to care for. So while I do appreciate their time, the hour that they devote to meetings every other month does not, to me, seem unduly burdensome.

"Perhaps you should reread your own words you fake some appreciation and then demean their efforts as just an hour or so every other month. And yes your family is certainly one of the few in the community that simply has no time due to your decision to have kids, lets let the retired and homemakers who don't do much else donate their time. IF you honestly believe the property is managed with one hour every other month you are sadly mistaken. But that seems to fit best into your limited view of the world"

Point three - While observe all of the various infractions made by our board members on a daily basis, I have never once reported them or complained of them to the management company. As you said, we've all got better things to do with our time and our lives, so I don't bother. I only listed their infractions as an example of how our board, to me and to many of my neighbors, seems to rule this community for its own pleasure, rather than for the good of all its residents.

" I got it now the Board is awful, all the residents have issues with the Board BUT everyone else is to busy to do anything other than judging people when we oursleves don't wish to be judged. Don't judge folks till you walk a mile in their shoes and that you certainly have not done. Funny in your posts you have judged the Board's actions, their decisions and even their motivations but you seem to have given yourself that right"

Point four - I already admitted that I made an error when I happened to leave my trash bag out front behind a bush for a few minutes. However, the other so-called violations are untenable. We followed to the letter the rules re: the wading pool on our deck and actually got rid of it when the complaint was lodged, although there was nothing in the rules against having one. We did not violate any parking rule because the rules specifically state in writing that you can use a visitor parking space for up to two weeks. Furthermore, we were in no way responsible for or liable for the clean up of the diesel spill caused by the landscapers, a fact that our adjacent neighbor the board president was well aware of. However, that in now way stopped her from lodging a complaint with the management company or prevented her husband from yelling obscenities at us in front of my young daughter. I in know way alleged that they HOA planted the tree to slight us. I believe at this point that you are reading my statements as you wish to see them, rather than as they are written.

" If these were now all none issues than why did you bring them up other than to put the Board is a bad light???" Always the victim of abuse.

Point five - There is no shame in not knowing the answer to a question, nor in asking the question. There is only shame in belittling those seeking knowledge, rather than providing them with guidance. In my job, I frequently travel away from my family for weeks at a time to provide training to new employees because I truly want to impart knowledge and show them the fair, just and right way of doing things. Apparently I was wrong in thinking that I could come to a forum like this and seek constructive advice and be provided with a safe outlet for venting my frustration.

" Seems you have a tendency to hear what you wish. Yes, just another day of being the victim. You questioned why your Board did not seek YOUR opinions I gave you the NYS law. I told you they did not need to hold open meetings and my guess if they did you wouldn't attend. You didn't want information you wanted the world to see things YOUR way. You seem to have missed the difference."

Point six - As mentioned previously, I had specifically asked that you refrain from making personal attacks or insults. You know nothing about me or my family other than what I have told you, which is little, or what you have incorrectly assumed. Your comment re: firefighters and policemen is deeply offensive to me and I hope to many other readers on this board. My husband is firefighter for the FDNY and he makes sacrifices of himself and our family each time that he works a night tour, misses a holiday or special event, or risks his life to save the life of someone he doesn't know and often has no appreciation for his efforts. He does all of this at a salary that most people in our area would laugh at. On top of that, he is an only child who cares for his elderly mother, and helps me care for my mother who is disabled. He is a good, law-abiding citizen, and I would thank you not to make slanderous remarks about him or his kind. While agree that not all firemen or policemen are fine upstanding citizens, the same can easily be said of teachers, doctors, priests, etc.

" My point (which I thought was a simple one) was that some people in authority abuse their powers. IE your Board and others. PERIOD. But once again you twist people's words to now suggest I offended your husband the firefighter.( who I do not know nor did I know he was a fireman) but feel free to again be offended. Guess now he is also a victim. This was about your heater prety simple but now you parade your husband, his Mom and your disabled Mom to prove you have been wronged. Come on............... And just to be clear maybe those living outside the NYC area might accept that the firemen in NY constantly on a daily basis rush into fires and save the lives of others but some of us know better. So lets not put them all in for sainthood. And simply becuase you get paid by FDNY doens't make you a hero"

Point seven - Yes, many people in our area have lost everything and we are fortunate that we did not. However, we do work incredibly hard and still struggle to make ends meet living in this area and we can't move due to my husband's career and family commitments. We recently refinished our deck and spent $2,000 on supplies, never mind the time and energy my husband devoted to performing the work himself. We did this in contemplation of being able to enjoy our deck through the autumn and spring months with the use of a deck heater. An intention that was in no way in violation of the rules when we undertook our activities late this summer. To you, $2000 for deck supplies and $200 for a heater may be chump change, but for us, that is a big hit.

" I have lived in NY all my life. For some time I lived in Westchester County where you now reside please don't suggest I or anyone else should feel bad because you are forced to reside in Westchester. That's a hard sell for anyone who knows the area. And this WHOLE issue is about a $200 heater. Sounds to me you would have us believe without the heater the #2,000 worth of work you did to the deck was wasted. Yes no sense trying to enjoy the deck without the heater might as well tear it down. Victim again......."

Point eight - I grew up in a single family household with a disabled mother, absent father and no money for heat, electricity or medicine, and often no money for food. So I know that although my husband work incredibly hard and will never get beyond "middle class" I am truly blessed to have a roof over my head, food on our table, jobs we can depend on, friends to love, family to cherish and a daughter that is the most beautiful creature I have ever met. So yes, now I will be moving on, counting my blessings and counting this as a lesson learned in the true nature and disposition of certain people.

"Final point, many people have a tough life. I will not bore you or others with mine because I no longer wish to be seen as the poor victim of what could have been better. And from the information you provided I have a tough time planning to pass the collection plate on your behalf.
Many people I know would trade places with you in a heart beat. Many people I know might drive through the area you live and only in their dreams would they get to live there. Your husband is paid well for the career he chose. You too work and in these times tough to see that as down and out. But feel free to throw the pity party you seem to like to roll around in. And the issue you have created all over a $200 gas heater. And in your world that makes perfect sense."

"You have a home in Westchester both you and your husband have jobs. Both your Mom and your husband's Mom are alive. ( Some people have lost their parents and might be glad to have the opportunity to care for them rather than using that as a crutch. You can't find your way to even consider that.) You have to remove a $200 heater my advice get over it. If you can."
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Well it appears that Elizabeth did resign from this site (based on the post count under her name going to zero).

That in itself is a shame. Members of this site, just like members serving on a Board of Directors, have different opinions and perspectives on various issues. This fact, coupled with the willingness to express those opinions and perspectives in a polite and thoughtful way can provide insight to an issue that wasn't initially seen. Granted there are times when the viewpoints to an issue differ so much that you just have to agree to disagree. However, refusing to listen to the other viewpoint creates a lost opportunity to learn.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Like many people who post here this OP was not interested in understanding anything rather she wanted someone to agree with HER view of the world. Or in plain talk whine. Hence her leaving. When you don't get what you want you leave.

Would have been helpful if you knew the difference between CCRs and Rules before you decide the Board acted improperly. And to represent the Rules as frivolous shows her belief SHE now gets to determine what is worthwhile.

Yes the Board did not request your input and guess what they don't have to. And they don't have to hold meetings because you say so. And they don't have to contact you about your garbage being left on the common property in a nice nice thoughtful way. What else?

Then because of her busy schedule (the only family with kids and jobs) lets drop the management of our property on those retired folks and homemakers because they don't have lives like ours. And it's not much in the way of effort afterall just one hour every other month!

Over 25 years serving on our Board I have dealt with people like her many times. That seems to be the ME generation. I want what I want and your job is to give it to me. What ever happened to personal responsiblity? What happened to doing what is required of you? What happened to you doing something other than standing around and finding fault? Why is taking your garbage out now such a big effort?

Why is it everyhing that happens is viewed as an attack against you and nobody else? How hard is it to understand that when in just two years the Board has needed to contact you at least 5 times some of this is on you?

The Board has to remove snow, maintain lawns, manage property, clean the pool, take away garabge, address violations, handle collections, handle taxes and bill payment, direct the management company, among other things. Does the OP appreciate ANY of these efforts? Of course not!
Afterall that's their job to do this all for nothing.

As I get older I have less patience for fools who think the world revolves around them. Get over yourself. And as a Board member giving my time for 25 years I resent when people come to this site who have NEVER given a minute of effort on behalf of their property and go on a crusade to attack, question and belittle the efforts made by people they don't even know. But you are going to fight this. Go right ahead.

Quite clear this OP was looking to be right no mater what. And when she heard what she didn't want then all the sympathy cards got played. My kids, my disabled Mom, my firefighter husband who works so hard, having to live in Westchester County,(Google Cross NY River Real estate and see for yourself the neighborhood these poor folks are being forced to live in) and having to spend $2,000 on your outside deck. Yeah life is really tough for some people. Maybe the husband's coworkers who live out on Long Island and have lost everything they own might be willing to join in this pity party for the OP. They lost their homes, their neighborhoods are gone but wait this OP has to remove a gas grill! What an injustice! What a big problem! We have to sit on our deck without a heater............................

Yes life can be tough when you live in a bubble where no one else matters but you and what you want. ME ME ME ME

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Jon

Elizabeth could not stand the heat in the kitchen.......LOL

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
no propane fueled grill, heater, fireplace, etc may be operated within 10' of ANY flammable material UNLESS it is so approved and rated

period ... end of discussion

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