SheldonS (New York)
Posts: 1
Posts: 1
Posted:
Has anyone had any experience with homeowners installing generators in an HOA?
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Portable generators
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GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Do you mean installing them like non-portable on a slab with a fuel tank and a dedicated hookup to the main or portable store in the garage and wheel out and hook up when the power goes out? The first one would require ACC approval, the second wouldn't IMO. But before you declare an outright ban remember the homeowner or their family may have medical issues which require an uninterrupted power source. They would also have to meet any applicable building codes especially in regard to proper ventilation. We had one H/O years ago try to use a portable generator in his basement because the power company shut him off but his cobbled together exhaust system failed and the whole family was overcome with carbon monoxide.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Tricky issue...They are extremely noisy. Plus improper installation can be dangerous. I don't see anything wrong with having them but with restrictions. Like in our HOA documents we could not have workers begin work before 7 AM and no loud noise after 10 PM. Generators may fall into this gray area. I wouldn't have them running 24 hours. They do need to cool down about 4 hours anyways. So having them allowed to run during certain times and place in appropriate areas may be a solution during the emergency situation.
Last year our area was devasted by EF5 Tornadoes. Took out our power grid for my county for a week and the surrounding counties for a few days. Generators were very popular if you could find them. So I understand the need for one. However, it should be something that the neighbors ALL agree on. During this emergency situation it may be a good time to address this issue with an emergency meeting. See what the majority wants and go with it.
My preference is no generator and enjoy the time with family and neighbors. It's kind of nice to be "Off the grid" every once and awhile. You will be surprised at how okay you will be without being plugged in.
Last year our area was devasted by EF5 Tornadoes. Took out our power grid for my county for a week and the surrounding counties for a few days. Generators were very popular if you could find them. So I understand the need for one. However, it should be something that the neighbors ALL agree on. During this emergency situation it may be a good time to address this issue with an emergency meeting. See what the majority wants and go with it.
My preference is no generator and enjoy the time with family and neighbors. It's kind of nice to be "Off the grid" every once and awhile. You will be surprised at how okay you will be without being plugged in.
Former HOA President
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
I have seen advertisements for permanent generators powered by natural gas that could be installed in a garage. If ARC approval is required for any exterior changes and denied, there are probably creative ways to conceal the air intake and exhaust. I have never seen one in person and I have no idea how noisy it might be, but since they are designed for residential use, they should be fairly quiet.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 10/29/2012 9:49 PM
But before you declare an outright ban remember the homeowner or their family may have medical issues which require an uninterrupted power source. They would also have to meet any applicable building codes especially in regard to proper ventilation.
But before you declare an outright ban remember the homeowner or their family may have medical issues which require an uninterrupted power source. They would also have to meet any applicable building codes especially in regard to proper ventilation.
If the issue is not addressed in your CC&R's then the association would not be able to ban them. As you say, though, the building codes would probably control the installation.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/29/2012 10:29 PM
My preference is no generator and enjoy the time with family and neighbors. It's kind of nice to be "Off the grid" every once and awhile.
My preference is no generator and enjoy the time with family and neighbors. It's kind of nice to be "Off the grid" every once and awhile.
Until you through out $400 worth of food that you can't keep frozen.
HeleneN (Connecticut)
Posts: 84
Posts: 84
Posted:
Last year after being without power for 9 days following a freak Halloween snow storm we had
a couple of request for permenant generators. This is a small over 55 Assoc. where the unit owners also own the lot their home sits on. The town requires a permit, lincensed installer and inspection. The placement of the generators is limited because they can't be near windows(gas fumes). The units must test run 20 min. a week. They are noisey, louder than an A/C. We are in the process of limiting that window of time when they test run. We also require landscaping around the generator to screen it from view. Even that is limited as you can't block the intake. We also have a few portable generators and just caution owners as to the proper placement and use. Ir's been an interesting time.
We have just come through hurricane Sandy without the lights even flickering and as of now I can't see any damage. I suspect owners with generators are probably disappointed. There are over 600,000 people in the state without power this morning and the CT coastline has been devastated.
a couple of request for permenant generators. This is a small over 55 Assoc. where the unit owners also own the lot their home sits on. The town requires a permit, lincensed installer and inspection. The placement of the generators is limited because they can't be near windows(gas fumes). The units must test run 20 min. a week. They are noisey, louder than an A/C. We are in the process of limiting that window of time when they test run. We also require landscaping around the generator to screen it from view. Even that is limited as you can't block the intake. We also have a few portable generators and just caution owners as to the proper placement and use. Ir's been an interesting time.
We have just come through hurricane Sandy without the lights even flickering and as of now I can't see any damage. I suspect owners with generators are probably disappointed. There are over 600,000 people in the state without power this morning and the CT coastline has been devastated.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posts: 927
Posted:
> The units must test run 20 min. a week.
This is for a permanently installed generator. Seems to me this is a permanent nuisance and (possibly) a very occasional benefit.
I can see a good case for allowing ONLY portable generators. Which, by the way, would not require any architectural change approval. There could be a rule that they could only be run when there is no electrical power.
But...do the PORTABLE ones need to be periodically excercised??
This is for a permanently installed generator. Seems to me this is a permanent nuisance and (possibly) a very occasional benefit.
I can see a good case for allowing ONLY portable generators. Which, by the way, would not require any architectural change approval. There could be a rule that they could only be run when there is no electrical power.
But...do the PORTABLE ones need to be periodically excercised??
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posts: 927
Posted:
> The units must test run 20 min. a week.
This is for a permanently installed generator. Seems to me this is a permanent nuisance and (possibly) a very occasional benefit.
I can see a good case for allowing ONLY portable generators. Which, by the way, would not require any architectural change approval. There could be a rule that they could only be run when there is no electrical power.
But...do the PORTABLE ones need to be periodically exercised??
This is for a permanently installed generator. Seems to me this is a permanent nuisance and (possibly) a very occasional benefit.
I can see a good case for allowing ONLY portable generators. Which, by the way, would not require any architectural change approval. There could be a rule that they could only be run when there is no electrical power.
But...do the PORTABLE ones need to be periodically exercised??
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Are they not all portable generators until you hook them up?
I do like the rules and restictions that put in place for this. It's the most practical I've seen. However, it still does need to be a neighborhood decision if the membership is okay with it. Plus you need to have some kind of fine associated with having one if they are banned. Otherwise how do you enforce it?
I do like the rules and restictions that put in place for this. It's the most practical I've seen. However, it still does need to be a neighborhood decision if the membership is okay with it. Plus you need to have some kind of fine associated with having one if they are banned. Otherwise how do you enforce it?
Former HOA President
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
It is easy to say no and just deal with it until you have been through something. We were very fortunate several years ago that we didn't lose power when many did when we had a bad ice storm. Many were out for almost a week and with subzero temps had other issues.
Permanent generators can be very noise efficient, you aren't needing to generate a ton of power for a single family home. I see no reason why they can't be installed. Testing can be done during the daytime, once a week seems pretty aggressive, the ones I manage at work we test once a month. I see a powerful argument from a homeowner standpoint as more damage (i.e. freezing pipes or lost food) can be sustained by denying the request.
Permanent generators can be very noise efficient, you aren't needing to generate a ton of power for a single family home. I see no reason why they can't be installed. Testing can be done during the daytime, once a week seems pretty aggressive, the ones I manage at work we test once a month. I see a powerful argument from a homeowner standpoint as more damage (i.e. freezing pipes or lost food) can be sustained by denying the request.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
Years ago in our high mountain area we had a lot of power failures, not so much anymore. I have a 20 amp Honda portable generator I wheel out just outside the garage door. It is not that noisy but we only run it during daylight hours. It will carry the house if you start the refrig and freezer seperately. We do not use the washing machine and microwave
when running the generator. I have read the new Honda inverter type generators are extremely quiet and efficient. Our Architectural Rules require a permit for anything over 3 feet high outside the house. The permanent units are not much noiser than an A/C unit. For insurance purposes, and to not fry the electric utility workers, I had a seperate distribution/seperation switch installed by a licensed electrician.
Paul T
when running the generator. I have read the new Honda inverter type generators are extremely quiet and efficient. Our Architectural Rules require a permit for anything over 3 feet high outside the house. The permanent units are not much noiser than an A/C unit. For insurance purposes, and to not fry the electric utility workers, I had a seperate distribution/seperation switch installed by a licensed electrician.
Paul T
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posts: 927
Posted:
> Are they not all portable generators until you hook them up?
That's sophistry. I think we can tell the difference between something with a handle that is wheeled out of the garage and something on a concrete pad with permanent wiring.
That's sophistry. I think we can tell the difference between something with a handle that is wheeled out of the garage and something on a concrete pad with permanent wiring.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
Sometime back, I explored installing a permanently mounted generator that would automatically start when the power went off. I was intrigued with the units powered by natural gas, a fuel source probably there on an ongoing basis. However, the dealer cautioned me about them being very difficult to start in cold weather, which we have plenty of. In fact, he had one for sale that the previous owner returned for a gasoline powered unit. If you have or are thinking about getting a gasoline powered unit and have to buy ethanol gas, I suggest you replace the fuel every several months and use a good stabilizer additive on an ongoing basis. Also, drain the carburetor after each use.
Paul T
Paul T
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
I have one for my home in an HOA, no problem. of course, my HOA has no rules what-so-ever to regulate them, so... I didn't really care. I can also get sheep, horses, duck, and geese without my HOA saying a word about it, so... Your mileage may vary, depends on your CC&R's.
as for portable generators and running frequency, it is recommended by most mfg that you start them up once a month or so, just to clear the cobwebs. You need not run it more than a minute, though. just burn some gas out of the line, and such.
as for portable generators and running frequency, it is recommended by most mfg that you start them up once a month or so, just to clear the cobwebs. You need not run it more than a minute, though. just burn some gas out of the line, and such.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posts: 798
Posted:
We also have one. A generac ~12kw on a concrete pad permanently hard wired with a transfer switch and connected to our natural gas line. Installed in about 10 years ago. It does a self test once a week for ~15 minutes....for good reason. Look at NYC hospital last night. They had a backup generator that they apparently failed to test before Sandy and then it failed and they had to evacuate everyone.
We put it on a concrete pad to bolt it down and hopefully minimize the noise but they are noisy. When we were supposedly part of the HOA around us we got developer approval for installation. They wanted it at the back of our lot but the included power cables etc are only about 20'. They come with a transfer switch and when power outage is sensed they start within seconds and then transfer and begin supplying power within a minute.
The HOA ccrs allowed for security and other devices so had they objected we would have pursued installation under that clause.
We've only had short outages in the 10 years (~4-8hrs) and the neighbours most affected by the noise did not complain. Why? Because they saw the value and they took advantage of our outside gfi powered outlets to run their sump pumps/appliances.
I'd say allow them but use appropriate rules. The 15 minute self test can be set for any day/time once a week. It is essential to ensuring the system is capable of running when it is actually needed. We recently noticed it wasn't doing the weekly test and upon checking noticed the 12v battery that cranks it was dead. Replaced the battery and good to go again.
As far as any issues with running in winter, not one, so I'm not sure why a dealer would tell PaulT they are difficult to start in the winter since I imagine our Canadian winters in Ontario are a 'little' colder than in California.
We put it on a concrete pad to bolt it down and hopefully minimize the noise but they are noisy. When we were supposedly part of the HOA around us we got developer approval for installation. They wanted it at the back of our lot but the included power cables etc are only about 20'. They come with a transfer switch and when power outage is sensed they start within seconds and then transfer and begin supplying power within a minute.
The HOA ccrs allowed for security and other devices so had they objected we would have pursued installation under that clause.
We've only had short outages in the 10 years (~4-8hrs) and the neighbours most affected by the noise did not complain. Why? Because they saw the value and they took advantage of our outside gfi powered outlets to run their sump pumps/appliances.
I'd say allow them but use appropriate rules. The 15 minute self test can be set for any day/time once a week. It is essential to ensuring the system is capable of running when it is actually needed. We recently noticed it wasn't doing the weekly test and upon checking noticed the 12v battery that cranks it was dead. Replaced the battery and good to go again.
As far as any issues with running in winter, not one, so I'm not sure why a dealer would tell PaulT they are difficult to start in the winter since I imagine our Canadian winters in Ontario are a 'little' colder than in California.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posts: 798
Posted:
To add, this is specifically why we put the system in.
"The Northeast blackout of 2003 was a widespread power outage that occurred throughout parts of the Northeastern and Midwestern United States and Ontario, Canada, on Thursday, August 14, 2003, just before 4:10 p.m. EDT (UTC−04).[1] While some power was restored by 11 p.m., many did not get power back until 8 a.m. the next day.[2] At the time, it was the second most widespread blackout in history, after the 1999 Southern Brazil blackout.[3][4] The blackout affected an estimated 10 million people in Ontario and 45 million people in eight U.S. states."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003
"The Northeast blackout of 2003 was a widespread power outage that occurred throughout parts of the Northeastern and Midwestern United States and Ontario, Canada, on Thursday, August 14, 2003, just before 4:10 p.m. EDT (UTC−04).[1] While some power was restored by 11 p.m., many did not get power back until 8 a.m. the next day.[2] At the time, it was the second most widespread blackout in history, after the 1999 Southern Brazil blackout.[3][4] The blackout affected an estimated 10 million people in Ontario and 45 million people in eight U.S. states."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posts: 927
Posted:
After the recent events I am considering getting a small portable generator. However I can't see a good reason for a generator big enough to run the entire house, or even a substantial part of it. We don't live in a country where power outages are frequent or prolonged. Indeed, very infrequent and for short periods is the usual story. A closed refrigerator/ freezer will keep things cold for several hours without power. (Not if you open it, of course).
In my mind it makes more sense to keep a stock of nonperishable food, water, etc. to last a few days. And that a higher priority than electric power. Your apocalyptic types may thing differently.
In my mind it makes more sense to keep a stock of nonperishable food, water, etc. to last a few days. And that a higher priority than electric power. Your apocalyptic types may thing differently.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
When living in Charleston SC, I had a small portable generator. I had several long extension cords as my intention was just to use power as needed (some lights, refrig, hot plate, TV, oil filled radiator, etc.), not try and electrify the whole house.
I kept it in a garage and rolled it out to run/test it 2-3 times a year. I had a 5 gallon tank of gas. I would empty the gas in my car and refill the can once a year.
In 10 years I never got to use it, as the longest we lost electricity was 12 hours.
I kept it in a garage and rolled it out to run/test it 2-3 times a year. I had a 5 gallon tank of gas. I would empty the gas in my car and refill the can once a year.
In 10 years I never got to use it, as the longest we lost electricity was 12 hours.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredS7 on 10/31/2012 5:10 AM
After the recent events I am considering getting a small portable generator. However I can't see a good reason for a generator big enough to run the entire house, or even a substantial part of it. We don't live in a country where power outages are frequent or prolonged. Indeed, very infrequent and for short periods is the usual story. A closed refrigerator/ freezer will keep things cold for several hours without power. (Not if you open it, of course).
In my mind it makes more sense to keep a stock of nonperishable food, water, etc. to last a few days. And that a higher priority than electric power. Your apocalyptic types may thing differently.
After the recent events I am considering getting a small portable generator. However I can't see a good reason for a generator big enough to run the entire house, or even a substantial part of it. We don't live in a country where power outages are frequent or prolonged. Indeed, very infrequent and for short periods is the usual story. A closed refrigerator/ freezer will keep things cold for several hours without power. (Not if you open it, of course).
In my mind it makes more sense to keep a stock of nonperishable food, water, etc. to last a few days. And that a higher priority than electric power. Your apocalyptic types may thing differently.
Fred,
If you have a freezer full of steaks you may be glad you had a generator. I have used all kinds of Honda products for many years and in my opinion they are perfect. Here are some links:
http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/generator-how-much-power
http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators
http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/hp2s-universal-transfer-switch
We have a 2,000 Watt, about 20 amps, Honda generator which carries the whole house if you start the refrig and freezer seperately. I have read the new ones are very quiet.
Ours is about 20 years old and fairly quiet but we only run it during daylight hours. You can do as John suggested and run extension cords to those appliances or have it connected to your house circuit breaker so that all outlets are hot. If you go this way
make sure you have an isolation switch installed so you don't energize the utility lines.
Paul T
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
I did some looking at the generators offered by Home Depot. Mostly I looked at Kohler and Generac models.
Large, permanent, whole-house generators with automatic transfer switches can be purchased for under $3,000 for 7 to 10 kw models. Diesel, gasoline, natural gas, and propane models are available. The spec sheets of the couple of propane models I looked at generated about 63-66 decibels of noise. For comparison, 60 decibels is about the noise level from an air conditioner about 100 feet away, and 70 decibels is about the noise level of an automobile passing by, also about 100 feet away.
Portable generators can be purchased for under $1,000. Again, propane models are available, and can run for about 6-9 hours on a standard 20-gallon gas grill tank.
One of the advantages of propane over gasoline is that propane has a longer shelf life than gasoline. Gasoline tends to break down over time whereas propane does not. Another thing to consider when thinking about noise is that some forklifts used in warehouses, for example, often run on propane (although, today, battery operated forklifts are more common).
Large, permanent, whole-house generators with automatic transfer switches can be purchased for under $3,000 for 7 to 10 kw models. Diesel, gasoline, natural gas, and propane models are available. The spec sheets of the couple of propane models I looked at generated about 63-66 decibels of noise. For comparison, 60 decibels is about the noise level from an air conditioner about 100 feet away, and 70 decibels is about the noise level of an automobile passing by, also about 100 feet away.
Portable generators can be purchased for under $1,000. Again, propane models are available, and can run for about 6-9 hours on a standard 20-gallon gas grill tank.
One of the advantages of propane over gasoline is that propane has a longer shelf life than gasoline. Gasoline tends to break down over time whereas propane does not. Another thing to consider when thinking about noise is that some forklifts used in warehouses, for example, often run on propane (although, today, battery operated forklifts are more common).
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
DJ,
You said:
"As far as any issues with running in winter, not one, so I'm not sure why a dealer would tell PaulT they are difficult to start in the winter since I imagine our Canadian winters in Ontario are a 'little' colder than in California."
I am not an expert on anything and was just repeating what the dealer told me about 10 years ago. Not my intent to discourage anyone, I would think your local dealer would be the best source of info. We live in Truckee, California, many times recording the coldest temps in the US.
To those of you planning to use extension cords from the generator I suggest you keep them as short as possible and use ONLY very heavy duty cords. The load carrying capacity is usually marked on the cords. If you have a transfer switch, I suggest you turn off the breakers on motion detectors, refrigerator, freezer or anything else that has a motor. Then restore them one at a time. If you have a big killer generator then just let it rip.
Paul T
You said:
"As far as any issues with running in winter, not one, so I'm not sure why a dealer would tell PaulT they are difficult to start in the winter since I imagine our Canadian winters in Ontario are a 'little' colder than in California."
I am not an expert on anything and was just repeating what the dealer told me about 10 years ago. Not my intent to discourage anyone, I would think your local dealer would be the best source of info. We live in Truckee, California, many times recording the coldest temps in the US.
To those of you planning to use extension cords from the generator I suggest you keep them as short as possible and use ONLY very heavy duty cords. The load carrying capacity is usually marked on the cords. If you have a transfer switch, I suggest you turn off the breakers on motion detectors, refrigerator, freezer or anything else that has a motor. Then restore them one at a time. If you have a big killer generator then just let it rip.
Paul T
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
One of the main reasons I purchased a generator wasn't so much for the inconvenience of losing lights, or potential for loss of food, etc., it was because I have a wood stove. That may seem counter intuitive, but one evening, after loading my stove with wood and starting a nice fire to warm the house, our power went out.
So, we grabbed our propane lanterns for lights, no problems. Figured we could add extra blankets to the bed for warmth that night, if the power didn't come back on, and hey, the stove is still burning, so... that's good, right?
Then, I realized: the stove was burning, but the FAN for the stove is electric... so there's nothing blowing across the stove box or the vent pipe to take away heat and cool it. By the time I got the fire dampened, my stove pipe was HOT, and even the protected wall behind it was hot to the touch. I was afraid to imagine what the junction box at my ceiling and roof was like. I was sure my house was going to smolder and catch fire from the latent heat at my ceiling. It didn't, but I learned my lesson
So, now, I have a generator, and a heavy duty (good advice from another poster about that) cord that runs up to an outlet behind my stove (and a second one near the kitchen for lights and such). If the power goes out in the summer, we pretty much just call it camping and get out the Coleman's. But if it goes out when I have a 500 degree wood stove burning, i can swap my fan plug into the generator outlet, and at least keep the house from burning down.
So, we grabbed our propane lanterns for lights, no problems. Figured we could add extra blankets to the bed for warmth that night, if the power didn't come back on, and hey, the stove is still burning, so... that's good, right?
Then, I realized: the stove was burning, but the FAN for the stove is electric... so there's nothing blowing across the stove box or the vent pipe to take away heat and cool it. By the time I got the fire dampened, my stove pipe was HOT, and even the protected wall behind it was hot to the touch. I was afraid to imagine what the junction box at my ceiling and roof was like. I was sure my house was going to smolder and catch fire from the latent heat at my ceiling. It didn't, but I learned my lesson
So, now, I have a generator, and a heavy duty (good advice from another poster about that) cord that runs up to an outlet behind my stove (and a second one near the kitchen for lights and such). If the power goes out in the summer, we pretty much just call it camping and get out the Coleman's. But if it goes out when I have a 500 degree wood stove burning, i can swap my fan plug into the generator outlet, and at least keep the house from burning down.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulT6 on 10/31/2012 8:18 AM
To those of you planning to use extension cords from the generator I suggest you keep them as short as possible and use ONLY very heavy duty cords.
To those of you planning to use extension cords from the generator I suggest you keep them as short as possible and use ONLY very heavy duty cords.
Paul gives excellent advice. Those not familiar with electrical conductivity need to understand that the longer the cord, the greater the voltage drop from the source to the load, and the voltage drop increases as the load increases. And, all that voltage drop goes into heating the cord.
Electric companies get away with long runs (from generating plants to substations and from substations to local distribution transformers) by using very high voltages (in the 10s of thousands of volts) and very big diameter wires. That's why Edison (who wanted DC power) lost out to Westinghouse (who favored AC). Edison's power system couldn't be transmitted long distances because DC cannot be stepped up and stepped down by transformers.
So much for today's electric history lesson.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posts: 798
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulT6 on 10/31/2012 8:18 AM
DJ,
You said:
"As far as any issues with running in winter, not one, so I'm not sure why a dealer would tell PaulT they are difficult to start in the winter since I imagine our Canadian winters in Ontario are a 'little' colder than in California."
I am not an expert on anything and was just repeating what the dealer told me about 10 years ago. Not my intent to discourage anyone, I would think your local dealer would be the best source of info. We live in Truckee, California, many times recording the coldest temps in the US.
To those of you planning to use extension cords from the generator I suggest you keep them as short as possible and use ONLY very heavy duty cords. The load carrying capacity is usually marked on the cords. If you have a transfer switch, I suggest you turn off the breakers on motion detectors, refrigerator, freezer or anything else that has a motor. Then restore them one at a time. If you have a big killer generator then just let it rip.
Paul T
DJ,
You said:
"As far as any issues with running in winter, not one, so I'm not sure why a dealer would tell PaulT they are difficult to start in the winter since I imagine our Canadian winters in Ontario are a 'little' colder than in California."
I am not an expert on anything and was just repeating what the dealer told me about 10 years ago. Not my intent to discourage anyone, I would think your local dealer would be the best source of info. We live in Truckee, California, many times recording the coldest temps in the US.
To those of you planning to use extension cords from the generator I suggest you keep them as short as possible and use ONLY very heavy duty cords. The load carrying capacity is usually marked on the cords. If you have a transfer switch, I suggest you turn off the breakers on motion detectors, refrigerator, freezer or anything else that has a motor. Then restore them one at a time. If you have a big killer generator then just let it rip.
Paul T
No problem paul. I didn't take it that way. I just found it funny a dealer would say that about such a system. There may have been some other issue that was causing hard start issues that had nothing to do with the temperature. ie. The generac system we have was designed for U.S. gas line preassure which is different than our Canadian gas line pressure. The new generac ones don't have that issue but for our ~10 year old system if you don't have the proper gas metering system to adapt for the different gas line pressure it 'can' cause hard starts and the manufacturer also says it will void the warranty. I suppose elevation is another possible factor for potential hard starts. If there is a dealer in a particular area they should know about such issues. I can't imagine a particular dealer who sells a particular brand wanting to locate in an area where his product doesn't work properly. Won't sell many systems that way, but might have lots of service calls and no repeat business.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
Brian,
We also had a wood stove many years ago, it was either on kill or almost dead. Went to a gas stove, light years better. As the flame is adjustable we can run it without the fan without melting everything down.
DJ,
Understood, very likely incorrect gas pressure, too small piping or any other problem. I doubt Honda would produce one if it didn't work well at the factory. We are at about 6,700 feet elevation so that also may be a factor? As you said, the local dealer should know.
On the power distribution issue, everybody's situation may be different BUT I suggest you bite the bullet and pay the one time cost to have a proper transfer switch installed and to keep your insurance company happy, by a licensed electrician. THEN, depending on the size of your generator, you can lead a normal life.
Being cheap, we started with a 500 Watt, about 5 amps, unit. When the refrig started it brought the poor little generator down to its knees. Suggest you pay the small incremental difference and get nothing less than a 2,000 Watt, about 20 amps, unit if you want to run your refrig and freezer. We have a 20 amp unit and if I was to do it over I would go with at least a 3,000 Watt, 30 amp unit:
http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/home-back-up-generators
Paul T
We also had a wood stove many years ago, it was either on kill or almost dead. Went to a gas stove, light years better. As the flame is adjustable we can run it without the fan without melting everything down.
DJ,
Understood, very likely incorrect gas pressure, too small piping or any other problem. I doubt Honda would produce one if it didn't work well at the factory. We are at about 6,700 feet elevation so that also may be a factor? As you said, the local dealer should know.
On the power distribution issue, everybody's situation may be different BUT I suggest you bite the bullet and pay the one time cost to have a proper transfer switch installed and to keep your insurance company happy, by a licensed electrician. THEN, depending on the size of your generator, you can lead a normal life.
Being cheap, we started with a 500 Watt, about 5 amps, unit. When the refrig started it brought the poor little generator down to its knees. Suggest you pay the small incremental difference and get nothing less than a 2,000 Watt, about 20 amps, unit if you want to run your refrig and freezer. We have a 20 amp unit and if I was to do it over I would go with at least a 3,000 Watt, 30 amp unit:
http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/home-back-up-generators
Paul T
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BruceF1 on 10/31/2012 8:10 AM
I did some looking at the generators offered by Home Depot. Mostly I looked at Kohler and Generac models.
Large, permanent, whole-house generators with automatic transfer switches can be purchased for under $3,000 for 7 to 10 kw models. Diesel, gasoline, natural gas, and propane models are available. The spec sheets of the couple of propane models I looked at generated about 63-66 decibels of noise. For comparison, 60 decibels is about the noise level from an air conditioner about 100 feet away, and 70 decibels is about the noise level of an automobile passing by, also about 100 feet away.
Portable generators can be purchased for under $1,000. Again, propane models are available, and can run for about 6-9 hours on a standard 20-gallon gas grill tank.
One of the advantages of propane over gasoline is that propane has a longer shelf life than gasoline. Gasoline tends to break down over time whereas propane does not. Another thing to consider when thinking about noise is that some forklifts used in warehouses, for example, often run on propane (although, today, battery operated forklifts are more common).
I did some looking at the generators offered by Home Depot. Mostly I looked at Kohler and Generac models.
Large, permanent, whole-house generators with automatic transfer switches can be purchased for under $3,000 for 7 to 10 kw models. Diesel, gasoline, natural gas, and propane models are available. The spec sheets of the couple of propane models I looked at generated about 63-66 decibels of noise. For comparison, 60 decibels is about the noise level from an air conditioner about 100 feet away, and 70 decibels is about the noise level of an automobile passing by, also about 100 feet away.
Portable generators can be purchased for under $1,000. Again, propane models are available, and can run for about 6-9 hours on a standard 20-gallon gas grill tank.
One of the advantages of propane over gasoline is that propane has a longer shelf life than gasoline. Gasoline tends to break down over time whereas propane does not. Another thing to consider when thinking about noise is that some forklifts used in warehouses, for example, often run on propane (although, today, battery operated forklifts are more common).
Bruce,
Being a 77 year old, 120lb old guy I don't think I could lift a 20 gallon propane tank :-) But you are spot on today's ethanol gas. If you use gasoline I suggest you:
1. Use a good stabilizer additive
2. Replace the fuel about every few months or so
3. Drain the carburetor after using or:
4. Run the unit about once a month or so
My experience was that if you don't drain the carb and let it set for more than a month or so the gas will evaporate in the float bowl and likely leave bad deposits which will plug up the jets. :-(
Propane might very well be a better fuel source, again, your local dealer should know the pros and cons.
Paul T
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DJ1 on 10/31/2012 9:00 AM
There may have been some other issue that was causing hard start issues that had nothing to do with the temperature.
There may have been some other issue that was causing hard start issues that had nothing to do with the temperature.
How about moisture condensation in the gas line that froze and blocked the line? That could cause hard starting in cold weather with any fuel.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BruceF1 on 10/31/2012 12:16 PM
Posted By DJ1 on 10/31/2012 9:00 AM
There may have been some other issue that was causing hard start issues that had nothing to do with the temperature.
There may have been some other issue that was causing hard start issues that had nothing to do with the temperature.
How about moisture condensation in the gas line that froze and blocked the line? That could cause hard starting in cold weather with any fuel.
My experience is with gasoline only, but moisture could be present with either fuel, I would think less with propane or natural gas? I have used Berryman's B-12 fuel additive for many years with no fuel related problems except for the time I forgot to drain the carburetor. I have seen it absorb water and, according to the Mfr it also stabilizes the fuel.
My guess is that there wasn't adequate gas pressure, causing hard starting? In any event the almost brand new unit was sitting on the dealers floor at about half the price of a new one.
Paul T
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posts: 798
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BruceF1 on 10/31/2012 12:16 PM
Posted By DJ1 on 10/31/2012 9:00 AM
There may have been some other issue that was causing hard start issues that had nothing to do with the temperature.
There may have been some other issue that was causing hard start issues that had nothing to do with the temperature.
How about moisture condensation in the gas line that froze and blocked the line? That could cause hard starting in cold weather with any fuel.
Bruce, PaulT6 and I were discussing a permanent generator fueled by natural gas, not gasoline which I am assuming you are referring to when you mentioned moisture in the line making it hard to start. If there is moisture in the natural gas line you've got bigger problems than starting the natural gas fueled generator. Such as starting your ng furnace or fireplace that comes on much more often than a generator.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posts: 798
Posted:
I should add, that a properly installed generator such as ours, they put an inverted T in the gas line just before going into the generator. This should trap any minor amounts of moisture that would condense. Guess that is also another reason why running the generators 'self test' once a week would keep any build up to a minimum. Still, our furnace has no T nor does our water heater so they should experience problems before the generator would.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DJ1 on 11/01/2012 2:10 PM
I should add, that a properly installed generator such as ours, they put an inverted T in the gas line just before going into the generator. This should trap any minor amounts of moisture that would condense. Guess that is also another reason why running the generators 'self test' once a week would keep any build up to a minimum. Still, our furnace has no T nor does our water heater so they should experience problems before the generator would.
I should add, that a properly installed generator such as ours, they put an inverted T in the gas line just before going into the generator. This should trap any minor amounts of moisture that would condense. Guess that is also another reason why running the generators 'self test' once a week would keep any build up to a minimum. Still, our furnace has no T nor does our water heater so they should experience problems before the generator would.
When we went from propane to natural gas the plumber told me the inverted T fitting was there primarily to catch any small pieces of debris in the line that might find its way into the jet in addition to moisture, if any. Probably not too much moisture in a ng line?. One of the reasons I decided to stay with gasoline was the hassle of getting permits from the Town and the added cost to install proper, and legal, gas piping. If one keeps the gasoline fresh and either drains the carburetor or runs the unit once a month or so it should be OK. That being said however, there are probably a lot of people trying to buy gasoline because of Hurricane Sandy that would be very happy to be able to run their generators on natural gas. Propane, like gasoline, has to be stored.
Paul T
RobertB40 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1
Posts: 1
Posted:
I disagree with you as many folks will have food that will spoil. Is you HOA going to pay for that?
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
From recent news stories it appears that there are hundreds of gas stations along the east coast where the underground fuel tanks cannot be pumped due to a lack of electricity. Kind of ironic that gasoline-powered generators would solve the problem.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posts: 798
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 11/01/2012 7:06 PM
From recent news stories it appears that there are hundreds of gas stations along the east coast where the underground fuel tanks cannot be pumped due to a lack of electricity. Kind of ironic that gasoline-powered generators would solve the problem.
From recent news stories it appears that there are hundreds of gas stations along the east coast where the underground fuel tanks cannot be pumped due to a lack of electricity. Kind of ironic that gasoline-powered generators would solve the problem.
True, and although we put in a natural gas fueled generator tied to the same line as our furnace, water heater and fireplace, we can't be assured that there wouldn't be some interruption in the natural gas supply either. We see many fires in the wake of Sandy still being fed by broken burning gas lines. At some point those sections would have to be shut down and if we were in that area our backup would also be of no use. That being said, you can only do so much to backup. We considered solar but 10 years ago there weren't really any companies around providing equipment that we felt would be around in 10 or 20 years if we needed replacement parts. Even then, it would only help on sunnier days unless you had a massive amount of lead acid batteries to store for use overnight.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RobertB40 on 11/01/2012 6:56 PM
I disagree with you as many folks will have food that will spoil. Is you HOA going to pay for that?
I disagree with you as many folks will have food that will spoil. Is you HOA going to pay for that?
You may be referring to Melissa's comment?
"My preference is no generator and enjoy the time with family and neighbors. It's kind of nice to be "Off the grid" every once and awhile. You will be surprised at how okay you will be without being plugged in."
I agree with you, a whole lot of good expensive food will be lost in addition of not having your furnace working, plus a lot of other conveniences. If Melissa wants to go without that is her call. Perhaps with the exception of permantely installing an outside
unit on a slab I don't think an HOA has any business telling you what you can do, kind of like owning a gun.
Paul T
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posts: 798
Posted:
Paul, logically it seems to me that a HOA should prefer a permanent installation over the portables. It would be easier to regulate and ensure proper installation and use since they require permits, electrician, gas fitter etc and once mounted you don't move 'em usually. The portables seem to have more risks/issues as far as ensuring safe and proper use, to me at least.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
DJ,
Agree, I would prefer the permanent outside set up. If I was on a well and septic tank that is what I would have. Fortunately, our outage problems have been considerably improved over the years. So, the portable is OK. We just don't run it after dark.
Paul T
Agree, I would prefer the permanent outside set up. If I was on a well and septic tank that is what I would have. Fortunately, our outage problems have been considerably improved over the years. So, the portable is OK. We just don't run it after dark.
Paul T
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