💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
I taking a poll here and hopefully you can tell me how similar communities are handling this. We live in a fee simple, attached townhome community and the HOA only contracts snow removal of the common area parking lots and HOA owned common area streets. For years the Board has just communicated to the communuity that the residents (themselves) are responsible for removing the snow from their own sidewalk area in front of their home.. This is typically only about 22 ft of sidewalk and 10 ft of this is actually the driveway apron. These sections of sidewalks are actually common areas that are owned by the HOA. I can't find anything in the Community Documents that details the fact that the homeowner is responsible removing snow from their respective sidewalks in front of their homes. For years this has just been verbally communicated to the community and no one has questioned it.

Along comes an ICE STORM - Now that we've had one of the worst ice storms in about 10 years, some of the homeowners are complaining about the fact that the HOA didn't have the sidewalks cleared and sanded. Certainly this would have cost a small fortune had we contracted it out.

If you live in a similar community in a snow belt, I would like to know how you all handle snow removal or sanding in the common area sidewalks. Thanks.
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posted:
MikeS1 - my hoa has sidewalks and aprons in front of townhouses that are designated as common area, the expense of snow removal is the hoa. the walks are available for use to all. your hoa may be placing the entire community in jeopardy of a lawsuit if someone slips and falls. it doesn't seem logical that the burden is shifted to the owner. however your by-laws/master deed should spell out what is common area and what is the responsibility of the hoa to maintain, and replace. in order to guarantee the safety of all residents, the cost of removal should be factored into your snow removal/ice control contract.
JosephW (Michigan)
Posts: 882
Posted:
Actually it looks like they are trying to avoid the liability by making the snow removal an owner expense. If someone were to slip and fall, and the association claimed that the owners were responsible, they might duck a lawsuit. Not that it would work. If the sidewalks are common areas, the association would ultimately be held responsible. No attorney is going to miss the deeper pocket.

I would suggest you simply write the board and ask them to provide you and the other owners with the legal basis for their decision to move association responsibilities on to individual owners. If they can't provide one, send another letter stating that you expect the association to maintain the common areas, and that includes the removal of snow from the sidewalks, et al.

My guess is that years ago, the board probably took a straw poll, asking if the owners would rather have their assessments increased, or would they rather assume the responsibility for snow removal from some areas themselves. The problem is that this would need to be a more formal vote of the owners, to amend the documents, rather than just a board decision. Also, I'm not sure any vote would remove potential liability from a slip on the common areas.

Joe

Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net

*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal
JosephW (Michigan)
Posts: 882
Posted:
Sorry, I didn't really answer your question. In Michigan, the association usually takes care of all common areas. The divide comes with what is termed "limited" or "exclusive use" common areas, i.e. porches, patios, decks, driveways, etc. Some, usually condos, take care of those also. Others, usually HOA's, don't. Our documents are usually pretty good in spelling out who is responsible for those, but if its a gray area, we recommend that the board get a clear legal opinion, consult with the insurance agent and then draft a formal policy, stating who will clear what. Why ask the insurance agent? Well, somewhere down the road, a court could disagree with the board and its attorney, and you want to make sure that liability coverage is still in place, and that the agent didn't just go ahead and cancel coverage of those areas.

Joe

Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net

*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal
JoyceS1 (Indiana)
Posts: 140
Posted:
MikeS1

Our community's sidewalks and driveways are the responsibility of the HOA as provided in our CC&Rs, thus we perform snow removal. Our maintenance policy provides for removal of two inches or more. Anything less is the HO's responsibility.

Ice is another matter. We have not routinely provided for treatment of ice, which is far, far worse than snow, in my opinion.

Your board needs to examine its documents and discuss picking up this maintenance if the documents support such responsibility.

DanaB1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 319
Posted:
Posted By JosephW on 02/18/2007 8:07 AM

My guess is that years ago, the board probably took a straw poll, asking if the owners would rather have their assessments increased, or would they rather assume the responsibility for snow removal from some areas themselves. The problem is that this would need to be a more formal vote of the owners, to amend the documents, rather than just a board decision. Also, I'm not sure any vote would remove potential liability from a slip on the common areas.

Joe


Joe, This is a great explanation of how it probably happened. I've seen things like this happen in our 20 year old complex. Some (poor) decision gets made and 10 years later people are asking how the heck that was come up with.

Dana
BonnieE (Illinois)
Posts: 338
Posted:
Hi Mike – We are in IL – legally we are condominiums, but our buildings look like attached town homes. Our HOA has a snow removal contractor (actualy our landscaper)remove snow/ice from the common areas (front walks, mail box pad, visitor parking areas), limited common elements (front stoop/stairs, driveways/aprons), and the sidewalks (which are publicly owned, but our Village requires that sidewalks be cleared by adjacent HO – in our case, the HOA). We salt as needed (and approved by PM) - salt is not in the contract for snow removal, so is charged/paid for on a case-by-case basis. We also salt when a HO requests it (due to potential liability for a slip/fall). The HO is responsible for their patio or deck. I have been given to understand that snow removal for the limited common elements I identified above are typically included in snow contracts in IL. A few years ago, our sister HOA (we have a Master HOA with 2 condo HOAs and single family homes) tried purchasing a “bucket” of ice melt for each of their HOs to use rather than have the snow contractor spread salt, but I think they went back to using the snow contractor as we do. The single family HOs take care of their own. Also, the Master HOA maintains a snow contract for the asphalt walking/bike path which runs along the outer sides of the property and which is adjacent to the common areas.

BTW, you mentioned that the driveway aprons are the responsibility of the HOs – assuming that having a driveway apron usually means there are also driveways – who clears the driveways?

Bonnie

MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
Bonnie - Driveways are clearly on with the property line of the resident's lot so they are owned by and maintained by the resident/owner. Thanks for all the good info.
BonnieE (Illinois)
Posts: 338
Posted:
Mike - you're welcome. Just curious - do the HOs own the land their town home sits on? Having the HO responsible for the maintenance/replacement of their driveway when it is a limited common element is something I have not run into before. -Bonnie
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
Bonnie - The homeowner owns the property that their townhome sit on. There are two components here that we're discussing. One is the driveway apron and the other is the driveway. The concrete apron is on common area and the HOA is only responsible for maintaining the concrete driveway apron. Then the owners driveway begins right at the property line that devides the common area from the owner's lot. This is very, very common in this area and these fee simple, garage townhomes are much more prevalent than the condo townhomes. Tks.
JM2 (Oregon)
Posts: 439
Posted:
Hi Mike:

If your documents are totally silent on the issue of the snow removal from the sidewalks, then I would suggest that you look at your plat maps. If the sidewalks are listed as a tract/common area, then the HOA should be dealing with them. If the docs are silent and the sidewalks are clearly owned by the individual lot owners, then they would need to pay for the removal/sanding/salting/etc.

Be aware that different de-icing products are effective at different temperatures....you want to minimize the freeze/thaw cycle on the cement/concrete in order to preserve it as best as possible.

For what it's worth, several years ago I was living in an apartment (in Oregon) and we have about an inch of ice - nobody did anything but stay indoors until it began to melt on its own. But then again, we generally don't get enough snow/ice to try to deal with it anyway when it does come.
KevinC2 (Michigan)
Posts: 15
Posted:
For my condo complex of 24 units, the board has always contracted snow removal and salting for all common areas, including sidewalks outside each of the units. Snow removal and salting is very expensive (last year it was $3,500 for everything) and we have therefore cut back this year. Salting is what will really increase expenses quickly, so we have started having salt at the complex at all times and allowed co-owners to take it upon themselves to salt the common areas. We predict this will save us about $1,500 this year. The plow company used to charge us $120 to salt our parking lot, which was big enough for 24 cars!

Kevin
Board President
The Courtyards Association

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here