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JillS5 (Virginia)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Does anyone belong to s residential HOA with any residents having established commercial boarding/riding stables on their properties, and clients using common areas for riding? (area is zoned agricultural and covenants permit boarding stables - but change is recent and HOA has no experience).

What type/amount of liability insurance do you carry?
NancyG3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 342
Posted:
How many stables are there? As a retired insurance broker/agent I would suggest no less than 3M and still depending on how many horses are boarded. Ask your insurance agent what it will cost to insure the building with 1M liability and then an umbrella from 3 to 5M. The Board should also make sure the ones boarding their horses has liability insurance, and request a certificate of insurance. They need coverage if their horse causes damages or injuries to others. Hope this helps. (The important thing is to protect all the homeowners in case of an accident or fire.) Hope this information helps.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Jill,

The only person to call is the insurance agent who serves your HOA with its existing liability policy for your common areas. The insurer will certainly have already assessed the horse riding risk and compared it with state laws that often protect land owners when people choose to take obvious risks.

Check there first as they'll be writing your policy if you need additional coverage. You're smart to inquire but having a neighborhood where horse boarding and care is permitted, I'd think, would be a huge draw for a segment of buyers.
JillS5 (Virginia)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Thank you, Nancy.

The horses are boarded in the homeowners barns so a fire would be on their property.

Three of these commercial stables have been established and could board up to 50 horses at this point. Community is not large.

As you mention, the objective is to protect the HOA (members) from liability as a result of an accident due to the 3 homeowners commercial exposures, on the road or common areas/easements. There are 18 owners so a large judgement wouldn't be spread very far.

JillS5 (Virginia)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Kelly,

Thanks. The community had a standard HOA policy from a leading company (SF) when the covenants prohibited business activities. The company did not want the exposure to the commercial risk and claimed to have no way of charging for the additional exposure. We did find a company/policy that would cover the exposure. The community is reluctant to increase the general liability beyond the 1M/2M of the previous policy. The Board is not certain this is adequate to protect the HOA.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Jill,

My only experience is with someone operating a daycare facility.
Since our playgrounds were not considered public we were also concerned about liability. Therefore, we consulted our attorney.

On the advice of our lawyer we required the member and every parent to sign paperwork (which the lawyer drew up) - and I'm pulling all of this from memory - specifying that the common areas were not public property and therefore did not need to comply with various regulations that would be required of public property and that the guests understand this and agree to hold the Association harmless for any injury that may be attributable as being preventable by such regulations.

Basically the daycare was no longer an issue as the member didn't want to be held personally responsible and the parents didn't want to sign the papers.

You may want to check with your Association's attorney for something similar.

I know that VA statutes do provide some protection for individuals and corporations that have equine activities.
JillS5 (Virginia)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Thank you, Tim. That's an interesting option. I'm not sure it would be as effective in our case. Horseback riding is considered high risk by the inurance industry. All of these commercial clients should be required to sign a liability waiver (all we can do is hope the stable owners are diligent about this), but the American Equestrian Alliance rates VA Equine Liability Law as "difficult" vs. "effective" and it allows liability for "ordinary" negligence. Additionally, I understand these clients would be classified in "premise liability" as "invitees" and "customers are owed a duty of reasonable care". That may be too much information, but I understand there is more of a concern here than if a trespasser or resident were injured. The situation is similar to the Day Care as many of the clients are minors.

The easy/obvious solution would be to restrict the stable clients to the stable properties (which sounds like this is the inevitable conclusion your community got to), but at this point, only the Board appears concerned about the liability and we'd rather not do that. As it should be, as our covenants charge the Board with procuring adequate liability and hazard insurance. We're attempting to define "adequate" in our situation.

Again, thank you so much for the helpful insight.

NancyG3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 342
Posted:
Jill - Check with your agent and get prices on what it would cost to have an umbrella to increase the liability limits. Normally these policies aren't that expensive. You need to get some quotes to take to the Board so they can see that the cost factor isn't that much. Also ask your agent for a quote to increase the liability limit on your existing policy, it shouldn't be a hugh amount of money. Please call your agent and get figures then decide, you need this information to take to your Board. Nancy
JillS5 (Virginia)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Good Advice Nancy. The old agency would not insure if the covenants permit any commercial boarding. They did not have a problem with private, residential ownership and riding in the community as long as there were no commercial endeavors.

The new policy, without a commercial equine exclusion, at their recommended coverage and 3M (umbrella), is appx. 10 times what the community has previously paid.

Discussing this has made me see things a little more clearly. The new policy application and interiew process, identified the activity, the company assessed the risk and recommended $3M, which is in line with what you've recommended (3-5 M umbrella).

Additional comments, experiences, best-business practices, are welcomed and appreciated.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posted:
We have an equestrian center:

http://www.tahoedonner.com/equestrian/

which doubles as our Cross Country Center in winter. I believe we are self insured? However, I would think a local, to you, insurance agent would be the only reliable source for the info you are looking for.

Paul T
JillS5 (Virginia)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulT6 on 10/13/2012 8:54 AM
We have an equestrian center:

http://www.tahoedonner.com/equestrian/

which doubles as our Cross Country Center in winter. Paul T

I'm moving to your place and leaving this one behind.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posted:
Sounds good!!, bring money, many, many people and businesses are leaving California so there is room. We have a number of upscale gated communities in our area. If I was worth fifteen times my present worth here is where I would live:

http://www.lahontangolf.com/default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=355356&ssid=262023&vnf=1

Another nice one, HOA owned streets, although not gated:

http://www.npoa.info/home

We call our Assn the "poor man's Northstar" (very poor)

Paul T
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:

What type/amount of liability insurance do you carry?


An insurance company will tell you exactly what you need. Call them, get quotes. Be prepared for it to be expensive, because people get hurt regularly around horses.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 10/13/2012 5:04 PM

What type/amount of liability insurance do you carry?


An insurance company will tell you exactly what you need. Call them, get quotes. Be prepared for it to be expensive, because people get hurt regularly around horses.

Good advice.

You have passed from private ownership (like I own a horsey) to commercial (I rent my horsey to others) thus I expect the liability premiums to be much, much higher but I expect it to be a simple matter (expensive to your association) for an experienced insurance agent to figure/price it out.

Do shop agents and companies. There can be wide differences.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
I don't know a whole lot about insurance but shouldn't the operator of the commercial horse facility carry a huge liability policy naming the association as an additional insured party? The liability in this case arises from the commercial operation and not from normal HOA operation. Whatever insurance is required should be provided by the commercial operator and not the homeowners.

JillS5 (Virginia)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Currently the association's common areas are not named in their policies. That may be an option to explore.
NancyG3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 342
Posted:
Jill - Larry has a great idea. In the beginning I thought your Assn had the stables. My mistake. The owners of the stables should list your Assn as an additional insured if they are using your common areas.
JillS5 (Virginia)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Yes, it sounds like a great solution.

We will still have to work it out with the original insurance company that has said they will not insure if any commercial boarding activity is permitted in the community. I think they have some concerns with lots of commercial traffic on the private road.

JC7
Posts: 31
Posted:
Have you checked your CC&R's it should state who can use the common area's. In our case you can only have a horse if you are a homeowner a different situation than yours. Having that said at one point we looked into Commerial Boarding and insurance was too high. I just want to make sure I understand your HOA allows a Commercial Horse Stable to operate on HOA property? I'm not sure how large your community is but I hope the Stables has a huge liabilty policy and your HOA is named as the "additional insured". Just curious, I'm assuming rent is being paid to the HOA?
JillS5 (Virginia)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Common areas are private road and easement. Existing insurance company acknowledged equestrian activities of members to and from private residences along common areas but stated it would not renew policy if any commercial boarding were permitted in community.

Deed of Divison states easements for sole use by pedestrian and vehicular traffic, CCRs state exclusive use by owners and guests, relatively recent amendment allows commercial stables in community but does not address use of common areas by these commercial entities.

Small community. HOA is not named as additonal insured but even if possible to monitor, we're told that does not protect the HOA from a direct law suit, i.e. HOA needs coverage itself.
JillS5 (Virginia)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Common areas are private road and easement. Existing insurance company acknowledged equestrian activities of members to and from private residences along common areas but stated it would not renew policy if any commercial boarding were permitted in community.

Deed of Divison states easements for sole use by pedestrian and vehicular traffic, CCRs state exclusive use by owners and guests, relatively recent amendment allows commercial stables in community but does not address use of common areas by these commercial entities.

Small community. HOA is not named as additonal insured but even if possible to monitor, we're told that does not protect the HOA from a direct law suit, i.e. HOA needs coverage itself.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I believe Jill's first post was explanatory. Maybe I am wrong.

Some of their owners have established a commercial horsey riding business on their own property and they are allowing the commercial (like rent it) horsey riders to use the common areas.

Now an association that allows owners to have horses and use their horses on the common property for their own personal enjoyment is one issue.

When someone crossed the line from personal horses for their personal enjoyment to commercial renting of horses and the renters are using the common areas, it opened a whole new Pandora's Box.

I would expect the insurance rates for the common property would be much higher due to commercial usage. Not only would I expect so, but as an owner I would demand much higher insurance for commercial usage.

I say "all" the owners should not be bearing the cost of any additional insurance required for commercial usage. I say "only" the commercial users should be bearing any additional insurance cost.

JillS5 (Virginia)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Yes, you're very close John except the people are not renting the homeowner's horses, they're renting the homeowner's barn and facilities to keep their horses there and riding on the common areas.

We have found an insurance policy that will cover it. I believe state law requires that owners that create the risk be responsible for costs to to cover the risk. Of course the CCRs require all assessments to be uniform, so it will require an amendment to comply.

We've found insurance, still struggling a bit with adequate, because I agree that standard HOA liability may not be enough in this case.

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