Where is the Democracy?

Started by RobertoG • 32 replies • 3091 views

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RobertoG (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Yesterday my home owners association held our elections to elect the directors, and I am the only new director who was elected. The directors had previously decided to purchase and install a surveillance and monitoring system, and coincidentally, they want to install the cameras in the area that they live in. I suggested that they inform the homeowners about this project so that they can receive the opinions of the homeowners regarding this matter and they responded that “the directors do not have to inform the homeowners about anything and that when the surveillance and monitoring systems are installed we will inform the homeowners about the rules”. They also informed me that I may not share any information about the meetings with the homeowners.

I would like to know if I am allowed to inform the homeowners about these pertinent matters and form some type of committee? The board of directors will probably not approve of any committee outside of the board.

Can anyone give me some feedback about this situation and the rules regarding discussion of information with the homeowners?

JM2 (Oregon)
Posts: 439

Posted:

Hi Roberto:

If you live in a state that requires "open meetings" (sometimes called a "sunshine law" or if your documents require open meetings, then everybody should receive notice of upcoming board meetings and have the opportunity to attend.

However, in states/communities with such laws, there is a provision for the Board to go into "Executive Session," usually to discuss such things as employee matters, legal issues with their legal counsel present, and to negotiate contracts.

If your state or community does not have such provisions, then it may be possible for the Board to work in secret - but that is not usually advisable.

Regarding surveillance measures, it would be very prudent for the board to discuss this openly in the community, since some people may get the impression that there is an invasion of privacy (generally, common areas would not be an invasion of privacy) and the question would arise about why the Board would want to set up surveillance and what they will be doing with any record of what happens (which, if they record, becomes a community record that must be kept in most cases, and may be open to records requests by members of the association).

At the very least, the Board should be making minutes of Board meetings available to homeowners, once they have approved the minutes at a later meeting - which means that owners should have access to the information. If they go into executive session, anything discussed in that session should be voted on in an open meeting - generally, no decisions should be voted on in executive session.

I would recommend that you read through your declaration and bylaws and any relevant state laws regarding the issue of secrecy of the Board vs. open meetings, and see what they say; as well as availability of minutes. If the Board demands your secrecy, you might just smile at people and tell them to request minutes of previous meetings.

I can't understand why the Board would want to keep a surveillance system secret - it would make more sense to publicize it as widely as possible, if they are concerned about crime, etc. at a deterrent!

Best of luck!

J. Patrick Moore, CMCA

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

you got about a 95% chance of being totally allowed to inform the owners of the shennagins of the board. 4% chance this has to do with a privacy or legal issue that could require it to be a secret, 1% chance it has to do with the FBI or NSA or Patriot act.

JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728

Posted:

RobertoG - you were elected by the people, for the people. not an enviable task when dealing with the characters such as your fellow board members. as a fiduciary a board member is obligated to do what is in the best interests of the entire community, not just yourself. what is good for you, may not necessarily be good for everyone. a good board adopts a policy that it has an obligation to be transparent, unless disclosure will violate attorney client privilege, or harm the privacy rights of an owner. your board does not meet up to that standard of ethical behavior. your by-laws should spell out the procedures your board has to follow to initiate a capital improvement (surveillance/monitoring system.

WilliamT (Arizona)
Posts: 489

Posted:

Posted By JoeW1 on 02/17/2007 11:54 AM

RobertoG - you were elected by the people, for the people. not an enviable task when dealing with the characters such as your fellow board members. as a fiduciary a board member is obligated to do what is in the best interests of the entire community, not just yourself. what is good for you, may not necessarily be good for everyone...

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/10/03830.htm&Title=10&DocType=ARS

The url is to the Arizona Non Profit Corporations Law Article 3 Standards of Conduct for board members. 10-3830 is commonly referred to as the "business judgement" rule. Every state with a non-profit corporation law most likely has the same type of section, but you can't go wrong by adhering to the principals stated in this law.

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Considering you are spending the homeowner's money on this surveillance system I would definitely inform them. If my state requires open meetings, chances are yours does to.

In regards to this system do they have a policy and procedure in place for it? Will it be monitored 24/7 by someone? What is the protocol for reviewing tapes and what is the protocol for who gets to see it. Are you informing homeowners through signage or just word or mouth? How long will footage be kept for?

Those are just some of the questions that should be answered, a policy should be in place for how it is used and who gets to view it. I am probably more on the cya side of things, but if you are providing a false sense of security for people and something happens it can open up a can of worms.

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Posted By RobertoG on 02/16/2007 3:15 PM
.............. They also informed me that I may not share any information about the meetings with the homeowners.

I would like to know if I am allowed to inform the homeowners about these pertinent matters and form some type of committee? The board of directors will probably not approve of any committee outside of the board.

Every time I see a post such as this I suspect that there's more going on than what is being presented.

Roberto, nothing can stop you from going door to door and complaining about the other board members but do you think that will be productive? Or will it set the other members of the board against you and eliminate your effectiveness as a board member? Forming a "committee" to chalenge every board decision will result in nothing getting done. If you're going to do that, you don't need a BOD, just someone to form committees every time a decision needs to be made.

The previous board made a decision on this system. I can only presume it was a "legal" decision that they were allowed to make. Just because you are now on the board doesn't give you a right to challenge their decision. You discussed it and they stand by their decision and if it were to come up for a vote again, you would be outvoted.

My suggestion is that you do your best to join in with the other board members, gain their respect, and learn to compromise. Eventually, they will also compromise and the result will be a more effective board.

Ron
SC

DanaB1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 319

Posted:

Roberto,

Hold onto your butt cheeks, your in for a rough ride. Your board is made up of nincumpoops.

The only rules they know are the ones they made up.

This website will help you immensely.

They most likely have no right to keep a matter like this in executive session. Dig more to find out exactly where the cameras are going and why.

Do you keep minutes of motions made? Do these guys even make motions to decide on something?

How many units and how many buildings? Are you in a high crime area? What state?

Dana

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

John, love to disagree, HOA's are NOT mini-governments. HOA's are corporations, pure and simple. They operate just like Walmart, IBM, Apple, Chili's, etc.. They do not, like a public government, have the power to Tax, license, make treaties, raise an army, jail/imprison criminals, or deport individuals.

They have a board of directors, they have shareholders/owners, and they operate for the overall good of the company, using contract and business law to get what they need. As pointed out, the owners/shareholders write the rules, make the covenents, etc.. An HOA cannot imprison anyone, establish licensing requirements, by-pass public health laws, etc..

An HOA may "govern" an association, but if that is your defition of a government, then my dad was a government too.

BonnieE (Illinois)
Posts: 338

Posted:

Absolutely right, Brian and Ronald – the HOA is a corporation, not a mini-government. John, please check your HOA's Declaration. The first sentence of the Declaration will read something along the lines of : This Amended and Restated Declaration of Condominium Ownership is made by the Owners at the xxxx, a (your state) Not For Profit Corporation.
Also see State's Not-for-Profit Corporation Act, which is the basis for the HOA and its governing docs.

Bonnie

WilliamT (Arizona)
Posts: 489

Posted:

Bonnie, I don't think JohnR7 really cares what the documents or the non-profit corporation law says. He appears to believe he is one who wants to move into a planned community and then complain because he doesn’t want to obey the rules he agreed to.

When one uses words like fascists, bully, tyrant, and there is no democracy, you can bet that they don’t volunteer to do any work for the community in which they live. They just want to fight it so they can get their way.

If his community is being run incorrectly, then the best way to correct it is to get involved and see that the Bylaws and CC&R’s are followed. My experience is that when complainers are asked to be on a committee to correct a problem that they are all of a sudden “too busy”.

“I would really love to help the community but I just don’t have the time”, is a phrase that I very often hear.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

John, good luck getting the legistlature, which is NOT a democracy, to tell a corporation, which is not a democracy, that they must be a democracy. I, for one, shudder at the idea of an HOA run completely by democracy...

Every time someone fails to pay their dues, we have to get EVERYONE to vote on whether we send them a reminder letter? I can't even get my owners to come to a meeting, you expect me to get them to come to weekly meetings, study issues, and vote? When our landscaper wants to know if we want pre-emergent spray for weeds, or if we want to post treat the areas, you want a vote of the owners? When a limb from a storm damaged tree needs to be removed, we need to get everyone together to vote on whether to have our normal landscaper do it for an extra $40, or put out a contract to bid for someone else to come do it? No way.

We elected REPRESENTATIVES to serve on the board, and make decisions. We listed, in our governing documents, exactly what they COULD and COULD NOT do without our (owners) authority. We have in contract what we, the owners, will vote on, and what they, the board, can vote on, and we have the methods of voicing our dissent, by removing them from their positions, should they forget.

Just for fun, John, can you point me to ANY democracy, standing as a government, at any place in the world? I would like to see one in action.

SidneyP (Florida)
Posts: 302

Posted:

Posted By BrianB on 02/19/2007 1:07 PM

"We elected REPRESENTATIVES to serve on the board, and make decisions. We listed, in our governing documents, exactly what they COULD and COULD NOT do without our (owners) authority. We have in contract what we, the owners, will vote on, and what they, the board, can vote on, and we have the methods of voicing our dissent, by removing them from their positions, should they forget."

Brian and all, I am not defending John at all but in some aspects I have to agree that the members need more imput from the BOD's. Brian those things you mentioned, of course they shouldn't need member approval but there are many things I feel do. If not because the Board doesn't have to but just because it is the right thing to do. Our Board was elected and I was part of it(no longer). I studied our CC&R's and everything I could to make myself knowledgeable about running the HOA (and still am doing so daily w/hope of getting back on the Board if we ever have our annual meeting and election). The President did ask for a volunteer at the last meeting and I volunteered but she wouldn't except me. I wanted to follow/enforce all the rules and regulations (which had not been done by the old developers MC) and if they seemed unreasonable, then lets bring to a vote and change them. I was the only one on the Board that felt this or proposed this order of business. This is why I am no longer on the Board. Our Board raised our assessmet fees w/o any prior notice, just a bill 13 days before due, they have failed to repair/replace our fountain(broken since Apr/06), they have failed to replace our many many shrubs, both at the park and the entrance, they have already pulled up all the borders at the plant beds and the path(didn't want to maintain it) to the pier, they have failed to enforce our R&R's. The last meeting(BOD's) was a budget review, once again they have lowballed the figures and cut our reserve(had also not paid into our reserve 4/5 months last year. At this meeting I did ask about the fountain and the shrubs. Said I saw no budgeting for these items. I was told that a HO was going to try and fix the fountain, and if he doesn't then it won't get fixed. The V President said they were going to pull up the shrubs, we're talking probably 50 all together. These are things that attracted us(HO's) to this community, not many extras except the Lake/pier and small park w/gazabo and beautiful landscaping. Now they, the Board can tell me they are going to get rid of these things. Do I feel the HO's need to know this and have a vote, you darn right I do. It may be the Boards right to do this w/o a vote. Not in my opinion, that is my property value they are tearing out. If the Board brings these things to the members for a vote and they decide they don't want them, then I lose. I will sell my place and invest somewhere else.

Brian, in one sentance you say, you can't get members to even come to a meeting and then in the next, you say we can remove the Board if they are not doing their job. It takes interested members to do this. As I have stated before we are over 50% rentals now, w/absent owners. I happen to be an owner that cares about my investment. Four(4) HO's besides the Board, showed up at that last budget meeting. If the Board would at least make a little effort to keep the HO's informed about things, that may spark a little interest from them in their community. I begged for a newsletter, none was ever sent. Our HO's are NOT made to feel like part of the community. I feel it is the Boards obligation to keep the HO's informed. We should be given the right to know what is planned and to give our opinion. The HOA belongs to/paid for by the members/HO's not just the Board.

PatrickH (California)
Posts: 204

Posted:

"I would love to be on the Committee. The first thing I would do is make sure everyone has the right to vote on any major expenditure. Then I would ask people like you to move."

John, you're killing me here! You sound just like those Commie, nazi, fascist, pinko, bullying, terrorist lovin', flag burnin' (did I miss anthing?) people you're complaining about!

You sound like a little sniff of power will make your head explode. I'm sure your neighbors would just love having such a level headed person as you on their Board of Directors.

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

John, please scroll up and reply to my questions. We might be able to figure out what you're so upset about.

Ron
SC

RobertoG (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Thank you everyone for all of the helpful feedback. I know that there is not much that I can do this year since the other four directors are always in accordance with each other. Whenever a decision is to be made, no one seconds the motion, no one else votes, and there is no discussion because they all act in accordance to what the president dictates. Even at my daughter’s high school Associated Student Body meetings they follow these basic rules of parlimentary. Instead of fighting the directors directly, I am going to focus on informing the homeowners on what is really going on in the open meetings and encourage them to attend the meetings so that they will put more pressure on the directors to make decisions that will benefit the entire community and not just themselves. By getting the community involved, hopefully more people will run for the position of director and we can finally see some changes.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

Roberto, for a small group (5 Board members) a second to a motion is not required. Check out Robert's Rules of Order. You most certainly are correct that to approve a motion requires a vote. As a Board member you should demand a vote. Also, make sure that any negative vote is recorded with the name of the Board member in the minutes.

Perhaps the other Board members are not familiar with the requirements for conducting a meeting. One thing you could do is try to educate the other Board members. Make them aware of the consequences of improperly conducting a meeting and/or recording the minutes.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

In most companies, and in many states, board meetings must be open to the ownership. That means that ANY interested owner may attend and monitor what their elected representatives are doing. It is true, they don't get to VOTE on everything, but that's the rub with a Republic... I can watch CSPAN, even sit in the chambers of Congress, should I wish, but I don't get to vote on any laws... I, as a citizen, get to VOTE on who I send to represent me. As a homeowner, i also get to VOTE on who represents me on the board of directors. That's where you get your democracy, in the vote for representation.

No one ever asked me to vote to support the Iraq invasion, or the 55 mph speed limit, or to raise it to 65 mph. No one ever gave me a vote on Social Security reform, medicaid, etc... I never got to vote on giving federal aid to Katrina victims, or buying a new B1B bomber for the air force. But I did get to vote for my senators and congressmen, just like every owner gets to vote for their board of directors.

Bottom line, if you can't get a board of directors voted out of office, it is because they are doing enough right to make the majority of members happy, or at worst, not enough to make a majority of people unhappy. Right or wrong, like it or hate it, if you can't get enough homeowners to cast votes against a director, then you are obviously in the minority.

PatrickH (California)
Posts: 204

Posted:

John, Sorry you missed the sarcasm in my post.

In your original post on this thread, you said that HOAs are mini governments, so they should follow the State and Federal Constitutions. Actually, HOAs are corporations, not governments, so they must follow corporate laws.

Just like Wal Mart or Microsft, the shareholders, that's you and I, vote to elect a Board of Directors. Those people are entrusted to make decisions that will affect all the shareholders. Some decisions will be good, some will be bad, no one is perfect.

In a corporate structure, the shareholders don't vote on every single decision the Corporation needs to make. Scroll through this site and see how many HOAs have a tough time getting enough members to even cast their ballots to get a Board of Directors elected.

Now, if there is some problem with the election procedures in your HOA, that's a totally different story. You've never described what the voting problem is in your HOA.

People here are pretty helpful and are willing to share their knowledge and insight with anyone who asks, so feel free to explain whatever problems you're having with the voting in your HOA.

PatrickH (California)
Posts: 204

Posted:

Hi John, now you've got some meat and potatos there!

The nine member board was probably set up by the original developer and is in your C,C and R's or By-laws. To change that could be a long process of rewriting the association's official documents.

The grass cutting and landscaping around the entranceway are a different story. The owners should be responsible for cutting the grass on their own property. Dues shouldn't be used to pay for the maintenance of anyone's private property. Even if all 75 owners have the exact same amount of frontage on the road, the dues shouldn't be used to cut their grass.

The big ornate entrance was probably built by the developer as well, but that doesn't mean it has to be landscaped like a botanical garden.

What's shocking is how much you're paying for these two items, 15-20k to mow grass, $ 9,500 to maintain the entrance. If you're in a very rural area, I can't imagine that labor costs are so high. You're Board should definitly put those contracts out for competitive bids.

You should study all your governing documents and find out which rules are being broken. It may say that all owners are responsible for maintaining their own property, or that all contracts must be sent out for competitive bid. Once you know exactly what is in the documents, then you can go to the Board and tell them that the grass mowing is in violation of Section X, Paragraph Y of the C,C & R's or the By-laws.

If they refuse to follow the rules of your HOA, then you'll either have to get enough owner support to recall the Board or get enough people to run for election the next time to start making changes. With that much money going out the door, you may find a lot people support your ideas.

Good luck.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

John, you certainly have a right to see the records of the association. I am not sure about the exact right to see the bids themselves (lack of knowledge on my part on the legal intricacies), but you certainly have the right to see who the bids went out to, who submitted bids back, and the final bid chosen/price. The board has no legal standing to hide the business of the association from the membership.

JudithW (Texas)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Although it is true that associations are corporations, some may overlook the fact that city governments, for example, are also corporations, yet they are operated in a democractic fashion and,quite frankly, have less power over their constituency than do HOAs because they have to follow constitutional restraints.

In addition to being a corporation, an HOA is a private government without constitutional restraints: they collect assessments (similar to taxation)for the "common good;" set the conditions (similar to ordinances) under which homeowners live; levy fines (easier than cities can)for violations; and do many othere activities that a public government can do. They can adopt "policies," or "guidelines" or "rules" that impact our homes and our lifestyles without a vote of the members and, at least in Texas, can do so in secret.

Our CCRs and by-laws were determined by the developer. We read the CCRs before making an offer and were satisfied that we could live within their provisions. However, it took over 6 months to get a copy of the by-laws, written for, by and of the developer. The only change that the homeowner board made was to increase the board from 3 to 5 members, even though a number of us wanted to increase it to 7 or 9 and believed 5 was to few to serve a subdivision of over 2,000 lots. WE were not allowed to vote on that.

Our by-laws require:
*the board to meet locally unless they decided to meet anywhere else at any time;
*that Roberts Ruels of Order be followed, but no method of enforcing those rules which have been historically ignored; and
*that the developer be retained as a consultant in perpetuity.

Our by-laws do not require:
*any notice of board meetings (and their meetings are not subject to the open meetings law);
*for a method, time or procedure for an election of board members; (the board determined those without notification;
*the board to provide a line item budget;
*the vote count; and
*any restraints whatsoever on the board.

My husband and I have, and do, belong to a number of civic non-profit corporations, which we can volunarily leave if we didn't like what they are doing, without the financial hardship of having to give up our home. All of them are operated on a democratic model. And none of them have such a personal and private impact that associations can have.

It is true that I did not understand the entirety of living in an association. I, innocently and stupidly, thought HOAs were established to create a feeling of community, of neighbors helping neigbhors. After doing a great deal of research, I have found differently.

While some associations adopt a democratic model, many do not. These are our homes; this is where we live. It is a non-profit corporation supposedly organized for the purpose of serving the interest of its members. If people are not allowed to participate fully and freely, be able to obtain (at the cost of copying)fundamental operational documents, and have input on major decisions, then the association does not serve the interest it was supposedly designed to serve.

It is called a "homeowners association." That term in itself suggests that it belongs to all the homeowners in the association. It is not called Wal-Mart.

SidneyP (Florida)
Posts: 302

Posted:

JudithW...What a great post, I agree with what you have said. I have always believed the HO needs more input on the decision making. The HO is left out of so much of the running of our association. We have all stated on different post that it is so hard to get members to attend meeting. The reason is because the members are not included in the decision making and are not being informed about anything that is going on in the community. At least this is how my HOA is run. HO's should be told about the raising of assessments prior to the invoice arriving in the mail. The Board has this power but aren't the HO's respected enough to be told before thay take OUR money. I would like to be ask if it's ok to remove the bushes from the once beautiful park and turn into just sod. I would like to be ask if we want to do away with the fountain instead of fixing it. If as Judith said, we are a HOMEOWNER ASSOCIATION, then the Board's position is to over see things but to keep the HO's informed as to what is being done or NOT done. At least give us a voice.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

Sidney, the members are allowed to voice their opinions during the decision making and are informed about what is going on in the community. And it is still difficult to get a quorum at each annual meeting of every association we manage. Without the use of proxies the meetings could not be held.

Based on many (too many?)my experience has been- it is easy to complain but few are willing to volunteer to do the work.

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Posted By SidneyP on 03/10/2007 8:34 AM

......... I have always believed the HO needs more input on the decision making. The HO is left out of so much of the running of our association. ............... I would like to be ask if it's ok to remove the bushes from the once beautiful park and turn into just sod. I would like to be ask if we want to do away with the fountain instead of fixing it. If as Judith said, we are a HOMEOWNER ASSOCIATION, then the Board's position is to over see things but to keep the HO's informed as to what is being done or NOT done. At least give us a voice.

Sidney, you do have a voice. You elected the directors to make decisions such as doing away with bushes, repairing a fountain, etc. It would be impossible to put every decision to a membership vote. Think of the federal government. State government. Local government. I don't get asked what I think about filling potholes or even building new roads or parks. My elected officials make those decisions. If I don't like those decisions, I have the right to vote for someone else in the next election. You have that right in your association.

As far as HO input, call or write your directors and give them your opinions. They will welcome your input. Members e-mail or call me with their opinions and I do my best to consider these opinions. Just remember that other HOs may be voicing opinions that conflict with yours.

Ron
SC

SidneyP (Florida)
Posts: 302

Posted:

RogerB...Not in our community. I bet you the HO's don't even know who the BOD's are because they have never sent out that information. They don't even know where the association fees go, they have never been sent a budget. If you do to be held, they wen't show up at a meeting then you are given nothing. Our meetings are posted 48 hours before they arere put out at 6:30 PM in the dark and remain there for 2 days. Tuff luck if you don't see it at the side of the road. The investor owners do NOT get any notice. Granted some live out of town and would not be able to attend (shouldn't they at least get the agenda, be informed as what is going on?)but there are many who don't. I called a couple that I had the phone number of and was thanked very kindly.(and they showed up)As I have said before, I was on the Board but resigned for two reasons, the two remaining Board members (would NOT replace the other two (2) that had resigned) would do nothing, I was doing it all (which I enjoyed) but they didn't like that either, we also didn't have D&O insurance (only what the MC said was carried under their policy). I regret resigning, they ask me to please stay but when I said OK, they decided they didn't want me back. So this is one complainer that has done and is still doing more for the community than the three(3) BOD's combinded. And speaking of quorums...Just today, I received a letter from the MC stating that our Annual meeting would be on March 20th at 6PM (that's a Tuesday), most people are just getting in from work at that time or aren't even home yet. (should have been Jan 16th). That's only 10 days from now, our ByLaws states that a written notice must be given at least 15 days before such a meeting. Our Annual meeting is to vote in new BOD's. There is no mention of electing new BOD's in the agenda. The allotted time for the meeting is one hour. No mention of old business/new business. There was no proxy in this mailing. And we have never had more than 10/77 HO's show up. This Board doesn't want a quorum...they would remain the BOD's. I had ask for the condition of the Lake/fountain and park be placed on the agenda, it was not. I thought HO's were allowed to ask for issues to be adressed at meetings. Is there anything I can do to get proxies. I was hoping I could get back on the Board but it looks like they figured on a way to keep themselves in. NO QUORUM, NO VOTE, NO NEW BOD'S.

NancyL1 (Florida)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Don't know if you can answer this but what are the HOAs's resposibilities to disclose the CCR's prior to closing? I certainly don't agree with the very angry JohnR7 but how can a homwowner adhere to rules they are unaware of? Our HOA is not very good when it comes to approaching new members, something I am trying to change.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Sydney I wish you would lean the value of the paragraph it would make you posts much easier to follow. (:>)

If your State Law / CC&R's provide for use of a proxy to meet the quorum then draft one asking the HO's to assign their vote to you, print up a bunch of copies at the copy center and the weekend before the 20th go door to door and get people to give you their vote. On the 20th vote yourself and any like minded people in and go to work putting your Association back the way you want it.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

OOPS: I meant learn not lean and I proofread it before I hit submit.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Nancy unless you have a State law somewhere that requires it; the HOA has NO obligation prior to closing as you only become a member upon closing. Unless you are dealing with the original developer who would have an obligation to disclose, it is the responsibility of the buyer to find out what their agreeing to when they buy a home & it's the responsibility of the seller to disclose it.

Now if you've bought and sold a few homes and know what is going on you can buy a home without a lawyer but it amazes me how many people make the largest purchase of their life unassisted. Hey why spend $500-600 to protect your $250,000 purchase and have a lawyer check over the contract and explain their rights, responsibilities and obligations to them. I mean all those papers they put in front of you at closing were drafted by somebody's lawyer; so it's got to be OK to sign them without reading them. Besides you wouldn't want to appear that you didn't trust the seller, lender, or realtor; but most important you wouldn't want to appear stupid or that you didn't know what was going on.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

SidneyP (Florida)
Posts: 302

Posted:

GlenL....I am so sorry...but I get so carried away I forget to make paragraphs, I promise I will do better..

I didn't know that I could just print off proxies, I thought thay had to be the one the MC would send out. I will do my best to get it done....

I did go by one of the Board members house and ask her why there was no mention of the election on the agenda and why there were no proxies included in the mailing? Her reply was, "I don't know, you will have to talk to Lisa(President). Now shouldn't all three Board members know what is on the agenda?

This is what I have been saying, the Board knows nothing about what they are doing and it seems the MC doesn't either. This is the second time we have had to have double mailing. The first time they decided to raise the dues. A plain invoice was send with the new fee, there was no warning it was going up or why. Then when I ask (and have since found out others did to) why neither of these things were done, they decided to mail a second invoice with a brief letter as to why the due needed to go up. Now since I complained about the agenda and proxies, I received an email saying they were inadvertently left our and would be mailed tomorrow. I told her this was to late because our CC&R's say members shall be given at least a 15 day advance notice. We are a big investment community. Those those proxies will not be able to arrive and get back even in time for the meeting.....So what happens if they have the meeting anyway?..

GloriaM (North Carolina)
Posts: 829

Posted:

Roger posted:

"Based on many (too many?)my experience has been- it is easy to complain but few are willing to volunteer to do the work."

I agree based on my 25 years experience, once they do volunteer and see how much work is really involved many resign within the first few months.

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Posted By NancyL1 on 03/12/2007 5:35 PM

Don't know if you can answer this but what are the HOAs's resposibilities to disclose the CCR's prior to closing? I certainly don't agree with the very angry JohnR7 but how can a homwowner adhere to rules they are unaware of? Our HOA is not very good when it comes to approaching new members, something I am trying to change.

The HOA has no responsibility to a prospective buyer. It's the buyer's responsibility to check to see if there are any restrictions, covenants, etc. on the property before purchase. Once you sign the deed, you are bound by the covenants whether you read them or not.

The HOA should provide a copy upon request although they may charge a fee for copying. I have supplied a few copies via e-mail to prospective buyers or their agents.

Ron
SC

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