hoa corruptness

Started by RobertF11 • 50 replies • 2832 views

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RobertF11 (Florida)
Posts: 41

Posted:

To aid those in need of help with their hoa, the best suggestion I can give is to advise the person to thoroughly read over their covenants. Once you have done that, find the loopos in the covenants. The reason being is that if you don't read between the lines so to speak you will miss important and vital parts of the covenants that will aid you in approaching the hoa in not only a member of the hoa but also will help you in legally approaching the hoa. It is my experience that when dealing with an hoa, one must know what they are talking about. For instance, in my hoa covenants, it states that no vehicles are allowed to park on the street overnight, common areas are supposed to be kept clean, no signs posted, no structures such as playhouses are to be built, and the list is endless. So, as a result of my hoa not taking my concerns of neighbors defacing my property serious at all, just blowing them off, I took my cam corder and went around the neighborhood during the daytime and night time hours.
I was able to find violations of fellow neighbors that violated the hoa covenants. I then filed an affidavit with the county courts and had a sheriff deliver a summons to the hoa president, the same said board member that ignored me and just didn't do her job at all according to what the hoa cc&r's stated she must.
A week after she received her summons the hoa had disbanded. I found that very strange because within the affidavit I had stated that I wanted to look at all of the books and records of the hoa as one of the criteria among others.
My point is that if a person's hoa is going to hold liens on someone's home for violations of the hoa cc&r's that the member commits, forcing the member to follow the rules and accept the fact that they committed violations, then the hoa should also be held with the same kind of standards. If they committ violations, then they too must be penalized and be forced to accept their faults just the same.
Hoa members must always remember to stand up for their rights because no one else will. Per my city, they will only put liens on a person's property only, only when they have high grass or something else of that nature. It will only be until after many communications such as letters and notes on the door will the city put a lien on the person's house. How I see it is if the hoa fails to do their jobs, and as such a failure, the neighborhood looks bad, then why should a person have to pay the hoa dues and thus the neighborhood would be better off without the hoa.
From my experiences with hoa's I have learned that being a board member of an hoa seems to me to mean that it is only a power trip, not a position to take serious.
For those of you whom want to know what my affidavit states and whom I am suing, which I am not suing for money, only changes within the hoa, then goto http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=292819&db=Canadian

MikeD13 (Virginia)
Posts: 9

Posted:

Robert,

You are absolutely correct about fairness of the rules. I joined our Board because of a frivolous violation incident. Since then I have held various positions including President and now Treasurer. The latter because I apparently ask too many questions about the budget and money.

Our CC&R does not allow us to serve unless we're in good standing (no violations, late payments, attend enough meetings) and we've had 3 Board members suspended, resigned, or removed for violations. So we take it seriously. And we have to, because if there is ever a situation where my neighbor is cited by the management company, and they say "hey, this guy is doing the same thing" then I and the Board lose all credibility. Sadly not all Boards view this the same way.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your story, and I'm sorry that you had to resort to legal action to get anywhere. For anybody who may be in a similar situation, read your bi-laws/CC&R, and your state laws. You as an owner/resident should have access to records, though it may vary by state. A bad Board can be infuriating, but a good one can really help the community.

~Mike

EdmundS1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 45

Posted:

I think Corruptness may be too strong a term. How long has the HOA been in existence? Previous boards may have been "Lax" in enforcement, lazy or a combination of both but not corrupt.

I live in a community that has been around for 30+ years and am now serving on the board. We have to deal with "violations" that were "Grandfathered" 20 years ago, ignored for 10 years, etc. Complaints only after the house next door or across the street changes owners and what was "OK" of 20+ years now isn't. Trying to "retrofit" is difficult and members/owners don't want to vote + on anything that means change as far as bringing the HOA and the community into the current century...

PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409

Posted:

Very interesting, the HOA "disbanded"? How did "they", I assume the Board, do that without a membership vote? Looks very suspicious. I guess they thought it would absolve them if bad things were discovered? Do you have an attorney involved? Please keep us posted.

Thanks, Paul T

RobertF11 (Florida)
Posts: 41

Posted:

I currently don't have the assistance of an attorney. Prior to and after submitting the non amended affidavit to the courts, I decided that legal counsel may not be the route to go. I believed and remain believing that being a pro se is the best route. However, I had someone, after I explained my situation to them, advised me to seek legal counsel. I considered their advise and started believing that maybe being a pro se isn't the route to take. Therefore, I contacted several attorneys. None of them wanted to accept my case. I then proceeded with seeking state run legal advise, the free legal counsel. They declined to take my case. As a result of being tired of trying to get help, I weighed the consequences of being a pro se.
I decided that my rights were violated and have continued down the path of pro se. I have had legal training in college. Not law school, however, penal codes, constitutional law, courtroom testimony and presentation to name a few. I know how and where to do legal research. I came to the belief along time ago that regardless of having an attorney to represent you does not guarantee that you will win a case, it is ultimately up to the courts.
To get a better picture of where I stand, please read my affidavit via the link I posted above. Be prepared to read however, because it is 17 pages in length.

RobertF11 (Florida)
Posts: 41

Posted:

The concept of an hoa is a grand theory to sustain. However, I moved to my house because of it having an hoa. I was led to believe at the time of and prior to closing time that the hoa was a well functioning hoa. It was great to have the feeling of security. That people were required to take care of their homes, not houses, their homes. That the entry way along with other areas throughout the hoa jurisdiction would be kept clean and tidy and their would be a sense of serenity within the neighborhood due to the effectiveness of the hoa.
When I first moved into my home, 2011, the hoa wasn't established yet. It was known to every homeowner that moved into the neighborhood that once the builder had built a certain percentage of homes that there would be the creation of an hoa board. The hoa board members were all voluunteers. So therefore, that means that they knew what they were getting into. Even if they didn't know what the job is, per law, they are still held to knowing what the laws are and how to run an hoa, because the law does state that ignorance is no exception.
Sometimes the only way that a person can be heard is to completely stop the actions dead in their tracks so to speak. That is what our fore fathers created the Declaration Of Independence for. Every American must stand up for their rights regardless of whom they are standing against or else they have failed not only themselves, they have failed our fore fathers.
How I feel towards my hoa is that they have been nothing but "bullys" so to speak. I don't like bullys, they are like roaches, infesting and corrupting everything in their tracks. Therefore if it takes suing an individual in order to uphold your constitutional rights and humanity rights, in order to preserve your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, I say sue them. However, don't sue for monetary resources unless they have caused extensive damages, because at the end of the day, you must know whom you are. When suing someone, you must ask yourself, can I look myself in the mirror afterwards.
When suing someone, you must also ask yourself is it worth it? Am I dedicated enough to succeed? The list of questions can be extensive. How I see it with my hoa is that they have not even attempted to be fair. I do find it suspicious that they have disbanded after my lawsuit filing.
Either way, if I am not the court's victor, such as wining the lawsuit officially, I have still won. My case will always and forever remain in case law for everyone to see and hopefully gain the strength to confront their hoa whether in or out of court.

PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409

Posted:

Robert,

Thanks for the feedback. I wonder what the Court's position will be related to the HOA being disbanded? Appreciate it if you would keep us posted, very interesting situation.

Paul T

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

I doubt the HOA disbanded, my guess is all the board members quit and quite honestly who could blame them. volunteering to be on a board is a very thankless task and getting served with a lawsuit whether justified or not would be enough to make a lot of members quit. Without knowing all the details in this situation it was escalated to a point where you put the board on the spot.

My question, did you volunteer to run for a board position? That is truly the only way to change an HOA, suing them is just costing yourself money and now you are in a position where you have an HOA but no directors so who is paying your bills, who is caring for your common property?

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertF11 on 10/05/2012 11:08 PM
, From my experiences with hoa's I have learned that being a board member of an hoa seems to me to mean that it is only a power trip, not a position to take serious.

I actually take offense to this statement...unless you have been a board member you have no idea the amount of ridicule and abuse they take, and for what? they don't get paid...Granted there are some bad board members but i would say the majority of board members are people who are not knowledgable about how an HOA is to be run. We all can read CC&R's, but those are usually vague and leave something for intrepretation. You need to remember that your board are volunteers who most likely all have other jobs and families and don't want to be bothered on what little free time they have with confrontation and conflict. No one likes to tell their neighbor you can't park there or you can't have this in their home. We all wish our neighbors would read their documents and follow them.

Back to my previous post, did you offer to serve on the board or any of their committees? Did you offer your camcorder services to help document violators so they could be corrected? Did your HOA have a management company?

RobertF11 (Florida)
Posts: 41

Posted:

Being on an hoa board is voluuntary, regardless of the risks involved with being an hoa board member makes no difference. As the law states with any political and or governmental position of any state, city or federal agency, "ignorance to the law is no exception." Did you do your research on what it takes to be an hoa board member prior to becoming an hoa board member? If you had, I can guarantee you that you would have found countless blogs and other entries on the internet where people are stating facts about boards. It is no one else's fault but your own if you feel as if you are being ridiculed from people with regards to being an hoa board member. As you will notice, I did not blindly state that all hoa board members are bad, " From my experiences", did you overlook that part. You are apparently jumping to conclusions with me. You should always have your facts straight when confronting someone and accusing them of something. However, since you want to make accusatinos about me, lets point the finger at you. Don't forget your statement "but i would say the majority of board members are people who are not knowledgable about how an HOA is to be run." What about the people that are reading your post, and see your verbiage of "i would say the majority of board members are people who are not knowledgable about how an HOA is to be run." You take things out of context completely and when you are making statements about others, you have forgetten about what you are doing. Is that how you run an hoa board? Is that how you treat people in general?

You apparently don't read everything either. Since you are going to go off in left field with poor accusations and make poor statements towards others, let's lay everything on the table now. Remember this is a blog that allows homeowner's to freely express their insights about hoa's. This is a type of blog that people turn to for answer because they don't know where else to turn. If you are an hoa board member just looking to pick a battle with someone because you don't like what they said about hoa's, then you should probably not be scrolling through hoatalk.com, because I am sure that you could pick apart every single poster's verbiage and use it for ammo against them.

RobertF11 (Florida)
Posts: 41

Posted:

I emailed the president of the hoa numerous times, asking for help from her. She either told me that the hoa would not get involved or she stated that the police needed to be involved not the hoa or she just simply ignored my emails. The neighborhood wasn't being taken care by the hoa as per the cc&r's, nor has there ever been any proof that any bills that the hoa were supposed to pay have ever been paid. Some areas of the neighborhood have weeds that are about 10 feet talk with stalks.
I would never voluunteer for the position of an hoa board member because I am aware of the liabilities, risks and time involved with it. I fail to comprehend that becoming a board member would do any good. I would have to have the come back of does a citizen have to become a police officer in order to change their neighborhood? No. They can utilize the proper channels in order to make changes. People don't just jump into a position of authority in order to make changes. If that were so, there would be more politicians, congressmen/women, law enforcement agents and the list is endless. I am simply trying to be heard and hopefully be able to make changes in my neighborhood that benefits all neighbors. If you see a cockroach in your home, do you call the pest control company or do you just buy the pest control chemicals and do the job yourself? I would be calling the pest control company to have them spray my house for the roaches. Because you know, if you allow a roach to live in your home, eventually it will manifest itself into an infestation. That is basically how I feel. I believe that there is corruptness and or has been infestations of people with poor motives among the hoa board members. They have allowed a multitude of violations to exist within the neighborhood and not even made an attempt on doing anything about it or atleast no attempt that anyone has been made aware of.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Robert,

I looked at your court filings when you first posted this thread. The kindest word I can use to describe what you filed is "unique."

You seem to have two main complaints. First is that neighborhood children play in your front yard and second is that the HOA cited you for trash in your yard.

From what I can see, your home is about 1 to 2 years old and you are likely the first owner. The homes appear to be modest size on approximately 1/6 acre lots. From satellite photos, I see no designated play areas near your street, which is a cul-de-sac.

Most associations will not permit fences around the front yard nor will they permit a no-trespassing or no-kids sign. Given all of the above, it is pretty much a given that the kids will play in whatever yards they find. In all of your complaints, I have seen no allegations that the kids playing have caused any real damage. You just do not want them in your yard even though it was entirely forseeable that in moving into a neighborhood of "starter homes" there would be children and that you would have no means of denying them access to your front yard, other than yelling at them.

In your lawsuit you do not seek damages from any of the children or their parents. Instead, you named the president of the HOA as the defendant. Unless these are her children (and I saw nothing in your filings that allege that), I do not think you have much of a case against the HOA or its president regarding the kids.

The other complaint seems to be that around July 4th some of the neighbors had fireworks and some of their trash ended up in your yard. The HOA asked you to pick up the trash from your yard and you decided to turn the incident into a war. After you refused to clean up your yard, the HOA cited you. It's not clear whether you ever cleaned up the yard.

I live in a single family home, though not in an HOA. Other people's trash in my yard is a daily occurrence. I do not like it but it is just a part of life in the big city. When I find other people's trash in my yard, I clean it up. It's just not that big a deal and is a normal part of home ownership. Yes, it would nice if the people who created the trash came over and cleaned it up for me.

In your court filings you sued the HOA because they cited you but you did not sue the people whom you allege to have created the trash. I just do not see where you have much of a case against the HOA when you allow the parties who created the problem to go unpunished.

I found another website with a complaint posted from someone that I believe was you wherein a part of the complaint was that you have a physical handicap of some kind that makes it difficult for you to pick up the trash. I did not find this allegation in your court filings, but I may have missed it. One of the problems with owning a home, even a brand new one, is that there is always some maintenance that always needs to be done. While there is no dispute that handicapped people have the same right to own a home as anyone else, one thing they should always ask themselves before they purchase is whether they can do that maintenance or afford to have others do it for them. That's just a part of owning a home. If you cannot maintain your home and are either unwilling or unable to have others do it for you, perhaps you should not purchase this kind of home.

I wish you luck in your lawsuit but I saw no claim stated on which the court could grant any kind of relief. I have the feeling that at some time in the future we will see a thread from you about corruption the courts.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Should we consider RobertF11 part of the fringe element or his association's CCO (Chief Complaining Officer) or both?

RobertF11 (Florida)
Posts: 41

Posted:

About a week after the hoa president received my summons, every homeowner within the hoa jurisdiction received the same email. I know everyone did because on the "cc" section of the email that I received were the other homeowner's. The email stated that there were no longer any board members within the hoa and that the president of the hoa, which is the same person that emailed everyone, was seeking a property management company to take over the responsibilities of the hoa. There was no vote between homeowners to allow the hoa board members to quit. However, since being an hoa board member is a voluntary position how can you stop them from quitting as a board member? You can't. I don't currently have legal aid to represent me, I am pro se and am doing a motion for summary judgement. The aspect that they didn't consider is leaving the hoa as board members. It looks bad on them. Because within the confines of my affidavit, which I did myself, I included a clause that the hoa board members would have to disclose any and all records and or documents that relate to the hoa. Read my affidavit and you will understand my feelings that I have with regards to my hoa.

RobertF11 (Florida)
Posts: 41

Posted:

I was never cited for anything.

RobertF11 (Florida)
Posts: 41

Posted:

It is good that you have an opinion, however slight it maybe, however, that is what the courts are there for. When a person attempts at trying to resolve a conflict with their hoa via email and the person is either ignored or treated like they are being blown off by the hoa and or its board members, then the only course of action that the person has is to request from the courts to intervene and settle the dispute.

RobertF11 (Florida)
Posts: 41

Posted:

"Should we consider RobertF11 part of the fringe element or his association's CCO (Chief Complaining Officer) or both?"

That is interesting. I thought hoatalk.com was a blog to help people, not attempting to decide on things that we as bloggers don't have any authority to decide on. Please let me know your decision of letting me remain as a member of the hoatalk.com or not.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 10/24/2012 2:55 PM
Should we consider RobertF11 part of the fringe element or his association's CCO (Chief Complaining Officer) or both?

I don't think he is either one.
He is like most of us thinking we understood what an HOA was when we purchased and then found out it really wasn't exactly like we expected. For various reasons some of us are attempting to change things from within and some are attempting to change things as best they can from outside the board.

Robert, when all the board members quit, I'm surprised that you didn't cease the opportunity and gather like minded individuals and volunteer to serve and become the board, as that would have resolved the case you brought forward.

Is your Association still without a board or did others volunteer?

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertF11 on 10/24/2012 5:22 PM
I was never cited for anything.

Robert,

I stand corrected. I just went back to your original affidavit and found the document on page 20. As it is titled "Code Enforcement Complaints," I had interpretted it to be a citation. On further inspection, it was basically a report of someone's interactions with you and included a threat of issuing a citation but since the trash or whatever was cleaned up a few days later it appears that no further action was indicated.

RobertF11 (Florida)
Posts: 41

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RobertF11 (Florida)
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Posted By MikeD13 on 10/22/2012 12:54 PM
Robert,

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RobertF11 (Florida)
Posts: 41

Posted:

Posted By MikeD13 on 10/22/2012 12:54 PM
Robert,

d

RobertF11 (Florida)
Posts: 41

Posted:

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

"Therefore, I contacted several attorneys. None of them wanted to accept my case. I then proceeded with seeking state run legal advise, the free legal counsel. They declined to take my case. As a result of being tired of trying to get help, I weighed the consequences of being a pro se."

As a general life rule if and when you contact several lawyers ( most of whom would sue their own Mothers for a dollar) and they ALL turn you down it would be a good guess you don't have much of a case. Ditto for the free state provided lawyers.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Looks like Robert may have a computer issue.

(or fell asleep on the keyboard

)

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Looks like the conspiracy has scored another victory over the oppressed masses by causing a cranial meltdown.

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Robert

I have zero desire to get into a war of words with you...you are 100% correct when i first got on my board many, many years ago i had no clue what all was entailed. I was like many HOA board members, I just wanted to help my community be the best it can be. Over time I have done a lot of research, read a lot of blogs like this and the number one issue i see in most HOA's is lack of knowledge on the homeowner's part, not the board. They bought something they thought was this, didn't read the fine print, and now are upset it isn't. Instead of taking care of their business they decide to either ignore it or wage an all out battle on why you don't enforce every nickel and dime rule to the letter of the law on every homeowner.

As a board member i felt it was important to work with homeowners as much as possible, but that required them to put forth and effort. If we asked you to pick up trash, then you either asked us for help if you weren't able to do so or let us know that you were out of town and would do it upon getting back in, etc. It is also important to be fair to everyone. I am assuming you have never served on a board so there are many things that go on that you may not be aware of. For example, we have a home going through foreclosure that the property wasn't upkept. Everyone complained and the board did what we could but until it changes hands to the bank there isn't much you can do as the original owners don't care.

You can blast me all you want, that is cool, doesn't bother me. Doesn't change the facts of your case...i wish you luck, I hope you find the resolution you are looking for but that rarely happens when lawsuits are filed.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Brad

As you said:

I have done a lot of research, read a lot of blogs like this and the number one issue i see in most HOA's is lack of knowledge on the homeowner's part, not the board. They bought something they thought was this, didn't read the fine print, and now are upset it isn't. Instead of taking care of their business they decide to either ignore it or wage an all out battle on why you don't enforce every nickel and dime rule to the letter of the law on every homeowner.

Well said.

For years I worked in sales/management for high tech companies. We had our fair share of very bright types (especially the techies) but many of them were the types that won every battle they ever fought and lost every war they ever got into. The shame of the issue was they never figured it even when it was explained to them

Like I was right. Yes you were right, but you were dead right and this is why you are being fired......LOL

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

and i can sympathize with some homeowners, there are boards who don't care, don't give you a chance and nail you every time they can. That i do disagree with. I think 99% of HOA problems would be resolved if board members stopped and asked "how would I want to be treated in there shoes" and if homeowners asked "what would I do in the boards shoes".

PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409

Posted:

I can only speak from my own experience of living in our 6,400 property Assn full time for 22 years and being chairman of our Covenants Committee for 16 in which time I attended about 185 Board meetings and worked with a combination of about 16 Boards made up of a combination of holdover and new Directors. It is my opinion that almost all Directors had a clear agenda as their motivation to be on the Board, that being golf. In addition, most were former executives who loved being "in charge" of anything and really enjoyed having the "big desk". Some were polite and respectful, many were rude, arrogant, and aggressive, just like in their other lives, I guess.

That being said, being a Director can be a time consuming, thankless job.

Just my opinion, offered at no cost, and for what it is worth.

Paul T

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