HOA President - Tenant Harassment ???

Started by MichaelB25 • 23 replies • 9869 views

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MichaelB25 (Florida)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Hi everyone,

About 10 years ago, I was starting a family and bought a nice little townhouse in a nice community. I raised my little girl there for about 5 years and then moved into a bigger house when my son was born. I was basically upside down in my townhouse, therefore I didn't sell and decided to rent it out.

HOA fees over the years were climbing rapidly in the HOA and it was getting tougher to rent out the property high enough to cover the mortgage and HOA fees. About 2 years ago, the next door neighbor of my townhouse came to me to sign a petition to kick out all the HOA board members. She stated they were not following the rules and raising costs and that she had compliled enormous amounts of information stating that they were not managing properly which was causing of HOA fees to rise.

After, a lengthy discussion she convinced me to sign the petition. Wow, was that a big mistake on my behalf. The neighbor to my townhouse is now the HOA president. Ever since she became the president she has been continually harassing my tenants.

My last tenant moved out stating she could no longer live at my property because they felt they were constantly being watched. My new tenant has moved in and has only been there for a month and has already given me a thirty day notice that she is leaving due to the neighbor harassing her.

This HOA/neighbor has installed cameras in front and behind her townhouse. She records everyone who enters and leaves my rental property. She documents license plate numbers. She documents how many nights that someone is not on the lease stays the night at the property based on her video recordings. If my tenant goes outside she stands outside with her arms cross watching them. She contiously confronts my tenants about someone staying the night that is not on the lease even though HOA laws have not been broken. My tenants all feel as if they are in some type of prison. She has contacted me, by blocking her phone number and then immediately just starts yelling once I pick up the phone.

It is very frustrating. Due to vacancies my family is losing roughly $1,000 a month. I believe, that the neighbor/HOA president does not like the fact that I am renting the property out and its right next to her. Now since she is the HOA president, she is threatening me with unwarrented fines and legal action. When I ask her not to confront my tenants she dares me to sue her and the HOA.

It is very frustrating not only to me, but also to my tenants. She is causing a great amount of stress to my family. I know once I get my next tenant in the townhouse, it will all start over again.

Not sure what I can do. I feel very helpless and as if she is using her new power to bully us into selling our townhouse and taking a big loss which would take years for me to recover from. Please help.

Regards,
Michael

PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409

Posted:

If she has not violated any of your Governing Documents or State Law it is probably just a case of "unusual management practices". Do the other Directors support her? Anything in your GD's about rental restrictions? Are your tenants generating any complaints from other neighbors?, and the list goes on.

Paul T

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

You may want to contact the other board members. They may be unaware of her actions.

You may want to consult an attorney to see what actions you have against the individual (not her position in the HOA or the HOA itself).

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Take this out of the HOA relm and take it personal. It's time to have the tenants call the police or you with her actions. Harrassment is a crime. You can get a restraining order if necessary. Just let her know that she can NOT hide behind the HOA curtain with her actions. That's what she is doing.

As for her threatening to make her sue the HOA. Don't do it. Have them sue you instead. It is cheaper to counter sue and NOT a good idea on the HOA's part. Especially when they find out they have no legs to stand on. Like I am guessing having no fining schedule set up. Which means they can't use fines for means to place a lien or foreclose on your property. So keep paying the dues no matter what and stay in good standing. Plus the dues are tax-deductible and maybe even your loss income from rental. Another good piece of advice...Your legal bills if you do need to use an attorney is also Tax-deductible as long as your property is rental/investment property. So if they do sue you, those bills can be chalked up on your taxes unless the laws have changed.

This isn't advice a former HOA president should give...However, been in your shoes some and understand. It's time to take this into the real world and use real world options. The police and the court system...Oh and by the way, make sure when you write a lease that you have in there about the tenant following the HOA rules. It will help give you an out just in case you do have a "bad" tenant or need to evict due to the HOA getting some fining teeth....

Former HOA President

PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409

Posted:

Michael, You said:

"This HOA/neighbor has installed cameras in front and behind her townhouse. She records everyone who enters and leaves my rental property. She documents license plate numbers. She documents how many nights that someone is not on the lease stays the night at the property based on her video recordings. If my tenant goes outside she stands outside with her arms cross watching them. She consciously confronts my tenants about someone staying the night that is not on the lease even though HOA laws have not been broken. My tenants all feel as if they are in some type of prison. She has contacted me, by blocking her phone number and then immediately just starts yelling once I pick up the phone."

Unless she is formally representing the Assn by signing and sending notices of non-compliance to you, I would guess she is acting as a "private citizen"? If that is the case the Assn has no involvement unless she complains to the Assn as a member. My guess is, with the possible exception of your last sentence, the police would not consider it "harassment". Perhaps not even the phone calls unless they were lewd or threatening? If the use of your property is in total compliance of the GD's with no complaints about your renters from other Assn members, it would appear that there is not a lot she can do about it.

Paul T

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Michael,

If you were in Arizona I would advise you to go to your local justice court and request an injunction to prohibit harassment.

Since you are in Florida and I know little to nothing about Florida law, I would suggest that you see whether similar relief is available to you. You may also want to see if there are criminal statutes that might be applied. Her phone calls to you sound like harassment to me. Her confrontations with your tenants are also harassment directed toward both you and your tenants.

You may also have a civil claim against the neighbor for intentional interference in a contract. Sue her personally as she is acting on her own behalf and not that of the association. You can sue her for all the lost rent and all the costs of finding new tenants, plus punitive damamges.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Two words:
Restraining Order

PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409

Posted:

Michael,

I didn't see anything in your OP about you meeting with her for a little "talk"? If you are in total compliance with no other member complaints against your renters you could explain the harassment situation as described above and your intention of implementing it if she continues to harass you and your renters. I don't know if there is much you can do about her recording of license plates and looking at her cameras?

Paul T

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulT6 on 10/03/2012 6:53 AM
Michael,

I didn't see anything in your OP about you meeting with her for a little "talk"? If you are in total compliance with no other member complaints against your renters you could explain the harassment situation as described above and your intention of implementing it if she continues to harass you and your renters. I don't know if there is much you can do about her recording of license plates and looking at her cameras?

Paul T

Paul,

You are right about the camera and her note-taking. The problem is that she is interrogating the OP's tenants, following them around, and harassing the OP by phone. Depending on state law, some of her conduct may be considered criminal stalking.

I would advise the OP against speaking to the neighbor as she will undoubtedly claim that she is being harassed. Any contact with her ought to be in writing from his attorney.

MikeS1
Posts: 521

Posted:

So much for "Quiet Enjoyment".

Is your property self managed or do you have a PM that could help? Also, have you put your concerns in writing with a certified letter to the Board?

PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 10/03/2012 7:21 AM

Larry,

Point taken, from the sound of it it may have gone beyond the "talk" stage. Maybe a "bluff" letter from his attorney, if he has one, would be better. Assuming that she is acting as a private citizen and the OP is in compliance, I don't think the Assn could do much about it?

Paul T

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Turning this into an association issue would be risky. If the rest of the board is not in the president's corner, they could come down on her and give her an ultimatum. The other possibility is that, since they elected her president, the board will circle the wagons and back her. Then a fight with the president will become a fight with the association and their insurance carrier's deep pockets.

Perhaps the OP should approach the individual board members and feel them out if he is not sure which way they lean.

PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409

Posted:

I asked earlier if she was acting in the capacity of Board Pres. or as a private citizen,
but didn't receive an answer. Sounds like she is the later?

Paul T

MichaelB25 (Florida)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Thank you for all of your responses. A few details I wanted to add.

Yes, the HOA President/neighbor sends emails as a representative of the HOA.

I want to also mention that the last 2 tenants that have moved out based on continuously being harassed & watched have been "section 8" tenants. These tenants have been single moms, just down on luck with the economy the way it is. They are very nice people in my eyes. I do now believe that the reason the HOA president/neighbor is harassing them is due to the fact that they are section 8 tenants and they live next door to her townhouse.

In my mind, a lot of people have gone through rough times and its not relevant that they are section 8 tenants and no where in the HOA documents does it state that the HOA must be aware that my tenant is section 8.

Regardless of it not being required, I originally notified the board when my first section 8 tenant joined the community that she was section 8, because I did not think it was an issue. Once this was revealed, the HOA neighbor/president started all of this strange behavior that I felt was out of the realm of an HOA president. She started notifying the Housing Authority (GOVT) everytime someone who was not on the lease stayed over, and she installed cameras to document this.

The rule for section 8 is that an unauthorised individual can not sleep over at a section 8 property for more than 15 times a year. Which neither of the tenants violated, but regardless everytime someone stayed over she would send an email (on behalf of the HOA) to me and to the government and let my tenant know she notifified the Public Housing Authority that someone stayed over. The HOA documents state that someone cannot stay for 3 consecutive dates without being on the lease or going through a background check, which was never violated.

Regardless, the HOA president still feels it is her duty to review her cameras that she had installed (out of her own pocket) on her house and confirm if someone stayed over at her neighbors, and if so send an email to PHA (public housing authority) with a license plate number of who stayed and notify my tenant that she has done this.

This caused my first tenant to leave, stating she felt like she was in prison in her own home.

Then my 2nd section 8 tenant moved in and I decided not to inform the HOA that she was a section 8 tenant. The HOA president/neighbor is a paralegal, so she dug into it and discovered she was section 8. So from the first week, we started receiving calls and being copied on emails to section 8 PHA (housing authority). Apparently within the 3 week span the HOA president/neighbor documented a boyfriend staying over twice and the tenants brother stayed over once. These individuals were helping her move and paint her new townhouse. As they were helping bring furniture in the HOA president/tenant would stand on her front step with arms crossed just watching them.

So amazingly after 3 weeks of daily harassment my new tenant wants to move stating she can't deal with the neighbor who confronts her at every chance she gets.

It is very sad and frustrating. The cameras are what are the tough thing. She has 2 enormous cameras on the outside of her house pointing to the parking lot area. She has the only townhouse with cameras and she easily got approved by the board/herself. Now she is using these cameras to document every move of my neighbors. Nobody wants to live in a townhouse in which the neighbor is recording your every move and its one of the first questions asked, when showing the rental property.

By the way...here is an example of the email she sends to me and PHA. The first one is is prior to her installing the cameras so she is doing a "Digital Recording" ...whatever that is. This is all that was in the email describing my first tenants daughter being at my rental property. This is a weekly almost daily event.

Tenant 1:
"Digitial Recording (she is wearing a blue shirt and jeans and has hair in a ponytail) this morning captures xxxxxxxxx in front of this address. Owner has been notified if anyone other than xxxxxxxx and a young boy is seen at this address starting today (April 13, 2012) owner must begin eviction proceedings. No further notices will be given to owner about this issue after today and the proper authorities will be advised from here on out." - HOA President

Tenant 2: (first week tenant being at my property sent to housing authority and me)
Per Public Housing Authority overnight guest policy, someone can stay 15 days(even if not consecutive) per year, after that a voucher holder can jeopardize their assistance. I am sending this email for your records and that of the association. If after the 15 day mark should Owner not comply with our association's request to submit an application for anyone seen regularly staying overnight at her unit, I will see that I do all I can so she is unable to continue to participate in the Public Housing Program if she wishes not to abide by Public Housing rules." - HOA president

Even though an HOA law is not being violated, how is it the HOA presidents responsibility to document and notify the Public Housing Authority of everyone that enters my rental property and then confront my tenant, telling them she has notified PHA and that a particular person can only stay over 13 more times this year. It is ridiculous.

Thank you,

Michael

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Sounds like you should have kept yourmouth shut about having section 8 renters, sounds less and less like harassment.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

MichaelB25 (Florida)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Doesn't the fact that they are being treated differently by the HOA president because they are section 8 seem more like harassment/discrimination based on income level ?

Is it the HOA Presidents responsibility to ensure that Public Housing Authority Rules are being followed even though the HOA laws are not being violated ?

Notifying my tenant that they have emailed the Public Housing Authority the license plate of their last guest seems to be overboard to me, especially since they are notifying as a representative of the HOA board.

The fact that they are a section 8 tenant should not be relevant, just because they are getting government assistance does not make them a bad person. It seems as if they are being discriminated against based on their income level. Which is just wrong. These are nice families.

Regards,
Mike

PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409

Posted:

Wow!!, the plot thickens. After all the smoke clears it would appear that if you are in total HOA compliance, " The HOA documents state that someone cannot stay for 3 consecutive dates without being on the lease or going through a background check, which was never violated. " the Pres may be using her position in error? Do the other Directors support her actions, if they know about it? In any event, the Housing Authority probably just sees her as a private citizen with a title of President of your HOA. I would think your HOA would want to distant themselves from the whole situation and let the Pres do her own thing on her own? Sounds messy.

Paul T

MichaelB25 (Florida)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Yes, but how do I prove harassment. I really do not want to stoop to her level and put big cameras outside of my townhouse and point towards her front step. To me it really seems childish. My proof is primarily my last 2 tenants stating they are being continuously harassed and a ton of unwarranted emails from the HOA president/neighbor.

She is a paralegal, so she takes a lot of actions to protect herself. Like blocking her cell phone number and sending emails from a self made "gmail" account that represents the board and basically just continuously threatening me with fines even though nothing has been violated.

Also, what is the the thought about having cameras outside of the townhouse pointed to the parking spaces of my townhouse units. Yes they were approved by the board/herself. But nobody else has cameras. My thoughts are that recording people on "private" property would be illegal without notifying them that they are being recorded. Also, obviously these recordings will be displayed to record/display/document unauthorised individuals visiting my tenant, but will not be used to display her continuously confronting my tenant. It seems to be very one sided.

According to the property management company she is the only person that complains about my tenants. The HOA neighbor/president fired the last property managment company and hired this new one when she became president. Therefore, the representative of the property management company says basically its their job to do whatever the HOA president requests them to do, such as issue warnings/citations she sees fit.

The other thing is that she can just make up things and have citations issued. She doesnt have to prove anything. That is what I do not like about all this power belonging to 1 person. Just based on 1 persons word that a tenant is not following rules she can issue me a fine and double it daily. She knows she has all of this power and basically states their is nothing I can do about it... and to sue the HOA if I want. Wow !!

So my next step, I guess is to attend the next HOA Board meeting and voice my concerns. Most likely I wont be able to get my point across, since she is the HOA president.

The feeling of being powerless & bullied is a terrible thing.

Thank you,

Mike

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Except for the phone calls, which I'll take your word for that were threatening, it doesn't seem like any of the other things she is doing rise to the level of harassment; as to the phone calls, don't take any from blocked numbers. It sounds more like she doesn't want anyone on the public dole to have live in roommates, maybe you could try renting to someone who is not section 8; then she wouldn't have anything to report.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409

Posted:

Curious to know if the other Directors know about what she is doing in the name of the HOA, and if so, do they support her?. If your HOA is like mine perhaps many of the full time owners are not fond of renters. We average about 350 non-compliance violations per year. With rare exception the violations involve properties that are rented. If you and your renters are in HOA and Housing Authority compliance I would think you and your renters could basically ignore her. If you are fined by the Assn you could go through the appeals process. I don't know about your State but in California we cannot lien for unpaid fines. The only downside is suspension of amenity and voting privileges.

Paul T

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Michael:

I have to disagree with some of the others. The president's activities are some of the most blatant harassment I have ever heard of.

The PHA is in a position to police its section 8 tenants. The president's first email to them was probably not improper. Continued unsolicited emails to PHA, you, and the tenant are improper. In my state, one element of criminal harassment is repeated unfounded calls to a public agency and she has taken this one step farther by keeping you informed of her repeated complaints. Also, in my state it is a criminal act to warn someone that they are under investigation. What purpose, other than to harass, would it serve to inform you and the tenant of her repeated complaints with PHA?

The president is not reporting any violations to the PHA. She is sending repeated messages that she has observed situations that may in the future be construed as evidence of a violation. In the end, the decision whether to terminate a section 8 tenancy would be the PHA's, not the president's.

I do not know too much about section 8 housing, but my first thought is it is most likely not within an association's discretion to harass and annoy tenants under a public housing program. It may be time to start your own complaint to the PHA.

Those emails to PHA are all the evidence you need of a campaign of harassment. She has admitted

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Sorry, I hit the enter button at the wrong moment.

One of her emails to PHA, you, and the tenant stated:
"Digitial Recording (she is wearing a blue shirt and jeans and has hair in a ponytail) this morning captures xxxxxxxxx in front of this address. Owner has been notified if anyone other than xxxxxxxx and a young boy is seen at this address starting today (April 13, 2012) owner must begin eviction proceedings. No further notices will be given to owner about this issue after today and the proper authorities will be advised from here on out."

What purpose is served by describing the tenant's attire, except to confirm that the president is stalking the tenant? What purpose, other than harassment, is served by telling the PHA that you have been notified that if some speculative violation which has not yet occurred does occur in the future that you must evict the tenant. (I would think that decision would be between you and the PHA.) What purpose, other than harassment, is served by informing the owner that only the tenant and a young boy with her are permitted on the owner's property when, in fact, the tenant is free to have visitors as she chooses? What purpose, other than harassment, is served by informing the other parties that the president is watching, recording, and reporting the tenant's visitors. What purpose, other than harassment, is served by telling the owner and his tenant that the president intends to make future complaints to "the proper authorities?"

Michael, you mentioned that the president is a paralegal (and apparently none too good at it). Does Florida require paralegals to be licensed? The reason I ask is that in my state they are licensed by the State Bar, who has come down in the past on actual attorneys for less and would likely not show much mercy for a paralegal engaged in this type of activity.

One final thought: In AZ one committs extortion by, among other things, seeking to gain something they are not otherwise entitled to by threatening to file an official complaint in the future. See what the Florida statutes have to say on this subject.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Right or wrong, like it or not, many live in unit owners are concerned about renters and Section 8 renters magnify it.

Bottom line is she is attempting to build a case to get their Section 8 revoked.

I think the only way she might be stopped is if the renters pull a restraining order against her. It might drive her to new levels, but at least it will be a warning shot to her.

Assure your tenants that you will legally stand behind them.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Michael:

One final thought: make a complaint to your public housing authority about the president's conduct. She is interfering in their business and burdening their clients (and your tenants) with the additional expenses of having to move out due to her harassment. Moving costs a lot of money and really takes a bite out of a poor person's budget.

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