BOARD VIOLATING HOA STATUE

THE HOA BOARD IS NOT SUPPLYING SALARY INFORMATION OF EMPLOYEES TO THE RESIDENTS AS REQUIRED BY HOA 720.303(5)(C)3 AND STATORY DAMAGES ARE THE REMEDY. CAN SUCH DAMAGES BE OBTAINED IN SMALL CLAIMS COURT BY RESIDENTS REQUESTING THIS INFORATION?

Besides, violating a statue...I mean, in public? The whole board? What was the statue of?

RaymondE,

GOOD NEWS!

Yes there are restrictions regarding patroll info. but NOT the amount paid to an employee.

Check page 3 of the following link:
http://www.peytonbolin.com/wp-content/uploads/case%20law%20update%20HOA%20full.pdf

Number 1 thing most have learned is that using CAPS LOCK is like SHOUTING when used on the internet. FYI. The other: Suing your HOA is like suing yourself and your neighbors. So expect to pay higher dues or a special assessment if you continue.

My question is why you need this information as it has been determined NOT to be anyone's business but the contractor who has the employees? Your HOA has HIRED a contractor to do the work. That means that it is ONLY the contractor's business on how they divy out the contract award the HOA gave them. You do NOT need to know what an individual makes. Just the overall cost of the contract. That's only if you are considering bidding it out.

There is way more things to concentrate on in your HOA than what an employee makes. I will tell you that Board members don't make a thing and it's ALL volunteer in non-profit HOA. Unless there is another set up which the members agreed to. Otherwise your search is just a money waster and not worth the effort.

We had this issue come up with much horse droppings ang gunsmoke involved. The final outcome was that we provided the low to high salary range for each position but not the individual employee's exact salary amount.

Paul T

Raymomd,

Not sure if your post was aimed at me, but if so, It was on the advice of our attorney to provide the pay scale for each position but not the personal individual pay of each employee. In our HOA labor costs are provided in our financial documents, page 3,"Operating Payroll":

http://www.tahoedonner.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/2012budgetreport.pdf

Paul T

Stating one's issues for seeing where/how his/her money is being spent/allocated has no bearing.

The law is clear. Salary info. is accessable. It is a common expense paid from community coffers.

This, as the law specifically addresses, is separate form 'payroll' information which includes enough information to assume an identity.

Ray, you will need to retain counsel and will likely spend more than you recoup. Unfortunately ths is how it is.

Justice is not free.

I can agree with that statement. The question boils down to, what is the appropriate punishment for violating the law or fiduciary duty?

Keeping within the context of this thread with the Board not allowing access to review certain records of the Association:

As a Board member, any legal costs and/or fines/damages would be paid from the Association coffers. Other than possible stress, the Board wouldn't really be punished as it's the entire membership who is paying the bill. Also, after the issue is resolved, the individual would still be an elected Director and free to make the same mistakes.

Recalling the board member is probably a better process than court (although there are times that court is the only option). If the recall is successful those individuals are no longer in a position to make that mistake again.

"Damages that are recived can be returned to the HOA."

If I am reading this right it looks like you want to sue the Directors and then give the money back to the Assn? In our Assn the Directors and Committee Members are protected from lawsuits.

Are you asking for individual personal salary information or job description salary range information or both, just curious. I would think total salary costs would be in your financial statements provided to your Members?

Paul T

You are correct. Typical D&O insurance will not cover a Board's decision if they knowingly violated the law. This of course means that all expenses will be paid for from Association funds. Even though you would be bringing the action against the Association, win or lose, being a member of the Association, you would be responsible for your share of the Associations expenses in addition to your own legal expenses.

Based on avoidance of the questions, it appears that you do not want to share why having this information is important to you. Therefore, I think I have offered all the advice I can on the issue.

I wish you luck and urge you to contact a local attorney before proceeding with any legal actions.

Tim

Well, I missed that one. Looks like your Board has made a "Type one" decision and will just not give you the info anyway. Sometimes, from what I have read, and experienced, Boards just do what they want to.

Paul T

Tim: Sorry, I was not clear about a legal action against the HOA and the Board members as individuals. The Board members would be personaly liable for their acts ouside the law and their scope of responsibilities. Attorney fees against them would be substanial and an easy case for summary judgement against them and a specific performance court order requiring HOA release of the information requested.
Lawyers here are more motivated to take easy cases then hard ones.

Well, based on what you have posted, the Board wasn't acting outside the scope of their responsibility and a court hasn't ruled that their actions were outside of the law. As Directors and Officers of the Board, the Association attorney would be representing them. Therefore, the Association (aka the membership) would need to pay the legal fees and fines. It's also typical for judges to hold volunteer directors harmless if all they did was make a bad business decision (especially if it was on the advice of their attorney).

As I posted earlier, I wish you luck and urge you to consult with an attorney (your Board certainly will).

Of course Ray you must be requesting documents that are 'membership viewable' and have followed the letter of the law in making your request.

If so, enjoy this example:

http://www.ccfj.net/courtdecdocsFL.html

Our association members are more than 3,500 on 2,800 acres of land and we do not contract out our management,only a contract with a general manager (employee). The fact that none of our Board members get paid,does not absolve them from their legal and fiduciary duty to all the residents (members) of the association. You are wrong about all your conclusions on a situation that is totally different than yours. What I stand says no insurance policy is written that will cover illegal acts!

JOB DESCRIPTIONS ARE AVAILABLE. BUT THIS BOARD HAS CONSISTENTLY DENIED REQUESTS FOR ANY FINANCIAL INFORMATION THAT IS PART OF THE HOA "OFFICIAL RECORDS AND WHICH THE FLORIDA HOA STATUTE SAYS MUST BE DISCLOSED. ONE MIGHT JUST WONDER WHY? OTHERS MIGHT PURSUE THE ISSUE SO GOOD THINGS HAPPEN INSTEAD OF BAD THINGS. I AM PERSONALLY SUSPICIOUS OF ANYONE WHO WITH HOLDS INFORMATION REQUIRED BY LAW TO BE DISCLOSED. WHAT OTHER SKELETONS ARE IN THE CLOSET IN AN HOA THAT SPENDS MILLIONS EACH YEAR OF THE RESIDENTS MONEY?

Good Morning Ray,
I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments.
Our Board has refused to release payroll data since April, 2012.
They actually lied to us originally and said they no employees as they are leased.
A lie, we have employees and we have a payroll management company.
We are in the midst of Presuit Mediation here at Willoughby Golf Club in Stuart.
We will prevail but the most egregious action was at the annual member meeting this
week and the Board president concluded the meeting with a premeditated ambush of my husband
and I as the crowd booed us...a set up for sure.
As you stated, wondering what they are hiding???
Looking forward to the release of the information and if we cannot settle in mediation we
will see them in the Martin County Clerk's chambers.
Do you know of any clubs who have prevailed in Presuit Mediation?
thanks in advance
ginav

I am not in Florida. We did pursue actions to get info and indeed the board was doing many illegal things.

We were seen as "troublemakers" by our community and have since left. We left because we feared the legal liability for the illegal actions which included attempts to avoid contract law and failure to file state required papers.

We won in mediation and in court (we went three times in less than a year).

I like to think it is true that "bad things happen when good people do nothing" but also remember you don't want to deal with dishonest people.

Hi Fred,
It was a simple request for payroll information in April of this year..
Our payroll continues to rise on falling memberships and no new members.
We have lost 30% of our golf members...It is indefensible the action that
the board has taken. We will prevail in presuit mediation.
More egregious..they planned a premeditated ambush in public at our annual
meeting with propaganda against my husband and I to the boos of a crowd and most
importantly, the idiots had a guest speaker from Creative Golf Marketing to
discuss a strategy to sell new golf memberships.

We are encouraged by the well wishers who are ashamed of the Boards behavior...
calls and emails keep coming in.

FYI-Governor Rick Scott of Florida last year signed the change in language of the
statutes that regulate our homeowners associations here in Florida. Specifically allowing
members to see payroll data. It's a no brainer...we pay their salaries..

Peace,
GV

They have an attorney who basically dropped the ball when we asked which statute she was
relying on to defend the indefensible position. She certainly wouldn't endanger her license
and refused to call or correspond with us any longer.

JM,
Kudos to you and to let you know..we are not leaving...
We will prevail.
I do hope you have found peace in your new home.
GV

Ray,
We are expecting a mediator meeting within the next two weeks..
We will keep you apprised of the matter.
The subject matter of the statute is clear as per Governor Scott and
counsel who has advised us.
We are not suing them, we are going to mediation to find out how our
money is being spent.
A projection recently based on assessment increase puts golfing here at
$29,000 a year in 2018!!!
Nuts..
we will post again

I don't know how things are in Florida, but mediation/arbitration is a requirement in California. It is written into the CC&R and required before a case goes to limited/unlimited court by the state and CC&R.

As with this case, our only issue was following the law. This case is about production of documents. Ours was as well and the board actually refused our initial request to meet and discuss.

There's a civil code 1367.520 in California and there might be a similar one in other states, but an association or member cannot file an enforcement action in superior court until they have submitted their dispute to an alternative dispute resolution process. A member can refuse, but the board cannot and our board did.

We eventually settle in mediation, but had already been to small claims court three times and the county of Los Angeles always offers the litigants the possibility of mediation before hand.

Our case had issues that were not covered by small claims and would have necessitated a trip to mediation before going to superior court any how.

I just write to show that even in the case of an enforcement action, courts prefer the two parties to meet in mediation.

At this point, it seems the production of documents is the only issue, we had other issues such as irregularities in the nomination and election process, theft by a board member, fraud and conforming with the open meeting act.

In mediation, keep calm and try to get the other party to cover your legal expenses as should happen during an enforcement action. Their insurance should cover it. In our case, the board didn't actually show up for either mediation session and that increased the amount we had to spend on attorneys. I would inquire to how many people are showing up and make sure there is a quorum. Also should there not be a quorum, make sure that the board has already taken measures so that they can make a decision as per your state codes.

By this I mean, our board should have but did not notify the members of the HOA of their meeting because in California the board is required to have a meeting for any action and in the case of an executive meeting they are still required to notify the membership as well as provide an agenda. In the case of an executive meeting, those who will not be able to attend in person might be able to vote per state regulations. Be sure that all this is in place. Otherwise, your board might play the stalling game as ours did. Hardly a good faith move, but that was the level of dishonesty.

Hope this helps and I hope all goes well.

I stand corrected. The original poster should use this link to the updated statute:

http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/Chapter720/All

Thanks for the correction Regina.

Thanks Tim
I think our Board is having difficulty with this.
We have a 30% decrease in golf memberships, bloated
payroll and increased assessments to meet operational
needs without regard to existing members.
Time for a change here.
Be well and thanks.

Regina,

It may also be that the Board went to the wrong site like I initially did to check the statutes. Both sites I provided links to are FL government sites. However, only the latest link shows the updated statute (even though both sites indicate it's the 2012 statute).

Have you provided a copy of the updated document to the Board with that section highlighted?

Doing so may or may not resolve the issue without mediation.

Tim