💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

LisaF6 (Florida)
Posts: 13
Posted:
I don't know where to turn so I hope all the experience and knowledge of this board will offer some direction.

Our 114 single family home HOA had their annual elections this past Tuesday. The votes are being contested ( not sure exactly what this means ) as it appears the President had 19 proxys that were from the same homes as another board member. The 2 do not see eye to eye and each wants the other off the board. I am a rarity and attend most of the BOD meetings, and I feel we would be better off if the President were no longer on the board. Based on the dates on the proxys, the Presidents proxys were those that were accepted.
The problem is, it seems suspicious that all his proxys were dated the day of the meeting. That question was raised at the elections but the management company said all they could go on is what the proxy paperwork had as the date. Tonight a few homeowners (not me), including the board member mentioned above were able to visit and speak with 3 of the 19 that had questionable proxys. At one home, the wife signed a proxy for the board member and was dated the date it was signed, the husband signed a proxy for the president and has admited he left the date blank. At another home, the wife signed one proxy with her name and put the correct/actual date, the same person signed a proxy for the president but she signed her husbands name and left the date blank. I forget what happened at the 3rd house but it was also a proxy that the date was left blank. Based on this, I believe we have a valid reason to contest the election. The problem is, all 3 of the homes have said they don't want to get involved.
I honestly think this may be in part because the President has a reputation of targeting homeowners that do not let him do what he wants. A few years ago, he sat in his sheriffs vehicle at our entrance and stopped people to get proxys signed. The group including the board member are going to continue to visit the remainder of the 19 homes to see what they can find out about their proxys. But if those that left the date blank don't want to get involved, what can we do?

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
IMO the two that were dateless are valid proxies, regardless of who filled in the date, the one with the forged signature is not. If he is re-elected, it would be up to the other members of the Board as to whether or not he remained president. Other than that, if enough homeowners want him gone, which doesn't appear to be the case, you could recall him.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
I know nothing about proxies, but note the rest of Glen's message: If the current president is reelected, the Board doesn't have to elect him president. They can appoint/elect a different director.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
I agree with Glen that you toss out the proxy with the forged signature.

From the famous "hanging chad" episode of the 2000 presidential election, we know that the legal standard in Florida is the clear intent of the voter.

Here, the other two voters executed two different proxies for two different candidates and they admit that they each executed one proxy without a date. Someone else filled in a date that may or may not be accurate. The question of which proxy was executed last, overriding the earlier one, could be resolved by the voters themselves. Their response, however, is to clam up thus preventing anyone from discovering what their clear intent was. Therefore, I would toss those two proxies. By toss, I mean treat them as if the proxies were never executed and the owners cast no votes.

In my opinion you should not allow owners to muck up an election and then allow them to distance themselves by refusing to make their intent clear. Since the HOA has no power to compel them to speak, the only action available is to reject their unclear proxies.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LisaF6 on 09/16/2012 5:28 PM

I honestly think this may be in part because the President has a reputation of targeting homeowners that do not let him do what he wants. A few years ago, he sat in his sheriffs vehicle at our entrance and stopped people to get proxys signed.

I hope someone had the good sense to file a complaint with the Sheriff's office. He was using official equipment and his position as an officer to intimidate property owners to act for his personal benefit.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Lisa,

Proxies are covered under 617.0721. Per that statute:

"A corporation may reject a vote, consent, waiver, or proxy appointment if the secretary or other officer or agent authorized to tabulate votes, acting in good faith, has a reasonable basis for doubting the validity of the signature on it or the signatory’s authority to sign for the member."

Therefore, your MC was correct to follow the date of the proxy. The President did a bit of politicking and the Board failed to educate the membership properly on proxies.

Per your post you have three members who all admitted filling out two proxies and further admitted:

failure to put a date on the proxy
forgery

Since none of them want to be involved, you have no proof unless you contest the issue in court and subpoena those individuals. This of course will make them extremely happy (especially the one who admitted forgery)and supportive of the cause. Of course the other question is, will those three votes turn the election?

Personal opinion, since most of the issues are due to the individual member failing to date the proxy and the proxy holder filling in the date, coupled with the fact that the members who did this don't want to get involved, the Board should certify the results and start a campaign to educate the membership on proxies.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Tim,

The three owners are just the first three contacted. There are 16 more owners to be questioned. There are a total of 19 proxies in question.

If I was the one making the decisions and I had questionable (and conflicting) proxies from owners who will not assist in clearing the air, I would not count the proxies. Too many questions and no answers. There is plenty of reasonable doubt about these proxies. If the candidates want to contest the results, they can find their way to the courthouse.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Lisa

Proxies do allow one to change their mind and the later dated proxy is the one that counts. If one has a proxy from you dated 09/01/12 and it says YEA and another person has a proxy from you dated 09/02/12 and it says NAY then you have voted NAY.

It seems your MC was acting as the Voter Registration Committee whose job is to verify and count the votes. They made a correct decision to count the later dated proxies.

Now if someone can "prove" there was some vote fraud like proxy dating/forgery then the question becomes what can be done about it?

If no mechanism exists in your Covenants/Blaws to overturn the election then I expect it would have to be done in a court of law and that could get expensive.

The President outfoxed his opponents. His tactics might have been questionable and border on illegal but he did it.

Bottom line is one might want to learn from all this and be better prepared in the next election. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
I think I would be more concerned about a sheriff or sheriff's deputy who appears to have questionable honesty or ethics.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
We have an official proxy form that goes out to unit owners. Each form has a unique number written on it which matches our list of home owners. I use an excel list that has the name of the unit owner, address, and unique code. Then I use Word to mail merge and print. A unique document will be printed for each home owner. We mail these once per year because they expire every year.

If I received a forged proxy, I would notice the unique code didn't match or was missing and would not be valid. If the idiot unit owner just photo copied his own form but put in a different address, I would see who did it by looking at their code and tell the real homeowner about the identity theft and leave it up to them and the police.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Hi Steve,

Can't a member submit a proxy representation letter vs. using the form provided by the Association?

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
Can't a member submit a proxy representation letter vs. using the form provided by the Association?


They can submit as much paperwork as they like, but it wont be recognized/valid unless it accompanies an official form from the association. Simple as that.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Steve

Let us say things are done as you outline.

Now on election day I (a fellow owner or not) show up with the following letter and I present it to the Election Committee.

I, Harry Smith, owner of Unit #123, hereby appoint Tom Smith of 345 Main St Anytown USA, to act as my proxy in the matter of BOD Elections at So and So Association.

Dated, Signed by and maybe even Notorized, from Harry Smith.


I would think it must be accepted over any earlier dated "official" proxy or lack of any proxy from Harry Smith. If not accepted, I say you could well have a "contested" vote from Harry Smith on your hands.

LisaF6 (Florida)
Posts: 13
Posted:
First thank you all for the great advice and inout. I am most greatful.
I am going to suggest to the MC that any addresses with more than one proxy have all proxys thrown out. I am not sure if this will change the out come but it sounds like the most fair route.

The more I talk to people about the issue, the more I learn about how so many are afraid to vote against this person. There are actually people who have said they are afraid every time they are out driving because he is a sherrif and they are worried they will get pulled over for something silly.

Somehow we need to educate everone on the facts with no emotion. I am trying to work on that but it is an uphill batter to calm down the emotional residents and try to get the others to not be as fearful of this man.
LisaF6 (Florida)
Posts: 13
Posted:
Out foxed is right. Now we need to figure out how to reduce the "gray" in our bylaws while he is President.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LisaF6 on 09/18/2012 7:24 AM

I am going to suggest to the MC that any addresses with more than one proxy have all proxys thrown out. I am not sure if this will change the out come but it sounds like the most fair route.

I understand how you believe this would be fair. I don't think that this would prevent legal challenges.

It might be better to have another election (due to irregularities in the proxy). Then, along with the notice of the election, include a paper on how to properly fill out a proxy form and what must be included.

LisaF6 (Florida)
Posts: 13
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 09/18/2012 7:30 AM
Posted By LisaF6 on 09/18/2012 7:24 AM

I am going to suggest to the MC that any addresses with more than one proxy have all proxys thrown out. I am not sure if this will change the out come but it sounds like the most fair route.


I understand how you believe this would be fair. I don't think that this would prevent legal challenges.

It might be better to have another election (due to irregularities in the proxy). Then, along with the notice of the election, include a paper on how to properly fill out a proxy form and what must be included.


I like this option too. I am going to suggest it.
Right now things are getting more heated as my emails are going CRAZY with demands to the MC by a homeowner. This is getting volitile
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
I think that Tim's last contribution makes sense, Lisa. And would it help h'owners to be less afraid of the disgusting bully if they're urged to attend and and vote so that he can't get their proxies?
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 09/18/2012 7:30 AM
Then, along with the notice of the election, include a paper on how to properly fill out a proxy form and what must be included.

One thing the military taught me, which has stuck with me all my life, is NEVER sign a document that has any spaces that are either blank or not crossed out.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:

Now on election day I (a fellow owner or not) show up with the following letter and I present it to the Election Committee.


Well, typically, we dont have an "election day" We send out official voting forms (with the unique code) and give everyone 30 days to get them back to us. So the last day is the deadline. This gives everyone a chance to get their vote in. I dont believe in an election "day" Just because someone cant adjust their schedule, doesn't mean they dont want to vote. Everyone knows about the official proxy form, so its never been an issue.

If it does become an issue someday with one person, we would look at the election results and determine if the outcome of the election would change based on this problem vote. If no, it doesn't matter anyway.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Steve,

I'm confused. Are you voting by mail or by proxy?

Voting by mail of course would require mailing out ballots for the members to return by x date.

Voting by proxy just authorizes someone else to cast a ballot on your behalf (typically at a meeting).
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:

Voting by proxy just authorizes someone else to cast a ballot on your behalf (typically at a meeting).


Voting by mail. But we have many renters, and some landlords have allowed their renters to vote on their behalf. Many of the landlords simply dont want to be involved.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Ahh, that helps me understand your earlier posting.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
SteveM9, your governing docs permit renters to vote??? Or, if silent, your state's corporation or other codes??
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11 on 09/18/2012 8:50 AM
SteveM9, your governing docs permit renters to vote??? Or, if silent, your state's corporation or other codes??

Its silent. Legally, if the landlords provide a legal method of allowing the renters to vote for them, a proxy, there is nothing we could do anyway. Personally, I'd rather see the renters involved with their community vs no involvement from landlords.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 09/18/2012 9:23 AM
Posted By CarolR11 on 09/18/2012 8:50 AM
SteveM9, your governing docs permit renters to vote??? Or, if silent, your state's corporation or other codes??


Its silent. Legally, if the landlords provide a legal method of allowing the renters to vote for them, a proxy, there is nothing we could do anyway. Personally, I'd rather see the renters involved with their community vs no involvement from landlords.

Steve

Yours would be the first set of Bylaws I have ever heard of that do not say one must be an owner to vote. I do believe an owner could assign a general proxy to their renter, thus their renter is actually voting as the renter wants to.

Also in the 5 HOA's I have belonged to I have never seen there not being an election time and place where an owner could show up and vote.

Asides, some have even questioned a spouse listed as the owner/voter when their name is not on the deed. Some even want to restrict their voting to resident members.

Not saying your method would/does not work. Just saying it is different. Do you have an Annual Meeting and/or a meeting where owners can attend and ask questions?

Thanks

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Yes, every HOA is different.

Yes, the bylaws do say owners have the vote and percentages. But many of the owners that are landlords assign voting power to the renters with a proxy. Nothing has changed in that matter. We recommend to landlords that they set their rent then add in the HOA dues on top of the rent as part of their monthly payment to the landlord. This gives the incentive to the renters to keep costs down, when voting for things they want, but also a pride in ownership.

Voting by mail is so much easier.

Yes, we do an annual meeting, but questions need to be submitted in advance to give time to research the answers. We would rather give a detailed answer than just tell them "we will get back to you, next question"

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here