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TomL2 (Florida)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Our current HOA is looking to possibly modify the Enforcement Review Board voting (ERB).

Currently the ERB is designed with 3 members.
Any one member of the ERB can write a homeowner up for any violation.
The 3 ERB members will review and concur or not with the violation.

The current issue is that two ERB members are having a field day writing homeowners up for violations.
The 3rd ERB member feels the majority of the write-ups are not actual violations.
There are times when violations are obvious and all three ERB members agree.

Since majority rules, a large number of violations have to now be contested by the Homeowners.
The next step is that the Homeowner contest the violation in front of the board.
Eventually most of the violations are written off as non-violations.

Although the homeowner avoids the violations there are a number of homeowners frustrated with
having to endure this process.

What are some of the pros/cons for switching to a "unanimous" decision from a "majority rules" for the ERB approval of violations?
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
The whole process is screwed up.

You have an ERB that is supposed to determine whether a violation has occurred. But the ERB members themselves are the ones bringing the complaints. This is like the police writing traffic tickets and then asking their fellow officers if the person is guilty. Gee, wonder what the outcome will be?

Your association needs to decide whether this ERB is going to act as a cop or a court. Under no circumstances should ERB members be both complainants and judges. Changing from a majority vote to unanimous will do little to correct the abuse and homeowners will continue to have to endure a multiphase process of a kangaroo court in front of the ERB followed by a real hearing in front of the board of directors. If everything is going to be decided by the BOD in the end, why have an ERB?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
The fact that the board can overturn all the decisions of the ERB is a consideration. The final say does come down to the HOA board unless the ERB documents state otherwise. Until then the ERB is just doing the dirty work of the board and having their hands washed off...

Former HOA President
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posted:
It appears that your ERB may be trying too hard? As the Board is the final appeal process and has written off many cases it may be time for the President to have an informal review with the whole ERB as to what is "reasonable"? If that doesn't work the Board could replace the "unreasonable" ERB members. Because of our size and volume we have about 50 full time employees, one being our Compliance inspector. His findings are reviewed by a Covenants Committee "Sufficiency Reviewer" who verifies the validity of the violations. If there was dis-agreement, which was non-existant for the 16 years I was Chairman of the Committee, the Chairman would control. Maybe a three member ERB is more than you need? In my opinion our system worked very well, in the sixteen years the Committee operated we had only six appeals, none of which were granted.

Paul T
TomL2 (Florida)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 09/13/2012 12:21 PM
The whole process is screwed up.

You have an ERB that is supposed to determine whether a violation has occurred. But the ERB members themselves are the ones bringing the complaints. This is like the police writing traffic tickets and then asking their fellow officers if the person is guilty. Gee, wonder what the outcome will be?

Your association needs to decide whether this ERB is going to act as a cop or a court. Under no circumstances should ERB members be both complainants and judges. Changing from a majority vote to unanimous will do little to correct the abuse and homeowners will continue to have to endure a multiphase process of a kangaroo court in front of the ERB followed by a real hearing in front of the board of directors. If everything is going to be decided by the BOD in the end, why have an ERB?

What is the normal process?
Is the ERB only supposed to evaluate the violations and not write any?
Are the general homeowners supposed to police each other or is there supposed to be a committee that goes around writing violations?

Just looking for clarifications as it appears there are a few processes not being implemented properly.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Tom

There is always a running arguement if one goes looking for violations and/or just investigates/reacts to such when reported to them.

If your BOD is always overturning the ARB violations then there is a disconnect somewhere between pro-active and responding.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TomL2 on 09/13/2012 11:29 AM

What are some of the pros/cons for switching to a "unanimous" decision from a "majority rules" for the ERB approval of violations?

Pro - unanimous decisions present a solid front.
Con - one individual can block issues for their friends and neighbors.

Personally, if I was on the board and we kept getting non-violations heard before the Board, I'd make a motion to replace the ERB members (as it's typical for the Board to appoint the members).
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
I'd urge our Board to do the same as Tim suggests.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TomL2 on 09/13/2012 1:51 PM

What is the normal process?
Is the ERB only supposed to evaluate the violations and not write any?
Are the general homeowners supposed to police each other or is there supposed to be a committee that goes around writing violations?

Just looking for clarifications as it appears there are a few processes not being implemented properly.

What is normal throughout American government is that the person(s) who decides the validity of a complaint is not the person who brings the complaint.

It's up to the HOA in question as to what they want the board to do. I am unaware of any law on this subject so the board can probably continue with this foolishness if they wish.

Personally, I do not support the idea of a bunch of brownshirts skulking around with clipboards looking for violations. It should be up to the owners to complain about violations. But that's just my personal opinion.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Tom, I believe you are misinterpreting 720.305 while the HOA has the power to fine, the Fine Review Committee's job is only to verify the fines not initiate them. (Emphasis added)

(2) The association may levy reasonable fines of up to $100 per violation against any member or any member’s tenant, guest, or invitee for the failure of the owner of the parcel or its occupant, licensee, or invitee to comply with any provision of the declaration, the association bylaws, or reasonable rules of the association. A fine may be levied for each day of a continuing violation, with a single notice and opportunity for hearing, except that the fine may not exceed $1,000 in the aggregate unless otherwise provided in the governing documents. A fine of less than $1,000 may not become a lien against a parcel. In any action to recover a fine, the prevailing party is entitled to reasonable attorney’s fees and costs from the nonprevailing party as determined by the court.
(a) An association may suspend, for a reasonable period of time, the right of a member, or a member’s tenant, guest, or invitee, to use common areas and facilities for the failure of the owner of the parcel or its occupant, licensee, or invitee to comply with any provision of the declaration, the association bylaws, or reasonable rules of the association.
(b) A fine or suspension may not be imposed without at least 14 days’ notice to the person sought to be fined or suspended and an opportunity for a hearing before a committee of at least three members appointed by the board who are not officers, directors, or employees of the association, or the spouse, parent, child, brother, or sister of an officer, director, or employee. If the committee, by majority vote, does not approve a proposed fine or suspension, it may not be imposed. If the association imposes a fine or suspension, the association must provide written notice of such fine or suspension by mail or hand delivery to the parcel owner and, if applicable, to any tenant, licensee, or invitee of the parcel owner.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Sorry hit send too soon. You will note that the statute specifies majority vote, not unanimous vote. You could add two members to the committee, which would make the majority vote three, not two.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
TomL2 (Florida)
Posts: 8
Posted:
How does one know if a violation has been submitted by someone on the ERB or someone else in the community?
In our community people can submit anonymously so in theory someone on the ERB can be generating the violations even when they should not be.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TomL2 on 09/16/2012 12:45 PM

In our community people can submit anonymously

We don't allow anonymous reports of possible violations.

The Board (or Architectural Committee in our case) will check into the issue. If the complaint is valid, the Committee will become one of the entities bringing action against it (with the complainer being the other entity).

All of the complaints must be in writing (actually that is per VA 18 VAC 48-70-50. VA law also requires that the final determination of the complaint (valid, invalid, upheld, ignored, etc.) be sent to the complainer.

PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TomL2 on 09/16/2012 12:45 PM
How does one know if a violation has been submitted by someone on the ERB or someone else in the community?
In our community people can submit anonymously so in theory someone on the ERB can be generating the violations even when they should not be.

If one member of the ERB reports anonymously the bottom line is if the complaint is legitimate and/or reasonable. If the Board feels the existing committee or individuals on the committee are over reacting they can replace them.

Paul T
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TomL2 on 09/16/2012 12:45 PM
How does one know if a violation has been submitted by someone on the ERB or someone else in the community?
In our community people can submit anonymously so in theory someone on the ERB can be generating the violations even when they should not be.

American law in general does not support anonymous complaints in either civil or criminal matters as one has the right to confront his accuser.

There is an exception of sorts to this rule when a person makes a complaint to an investigative body, such as zoning or even to the police. If an investigator is able to see a violation the investigator may then become the complainant (the accuser). The catch is that the violation has to be something that can be seen from a public place.

Two examples:

1) Your HOA has a rule against plastic pink flamingos in the front yard. You install a whole flock of them in your front yard and your neighbor makes an anonymous complaint. The association sends someone out and finds your flaming flamingos flocking openly in the front yard and writes up a formal complaint. The association representative is now the complainant even though he showed up in response to an anonymous complaint.

2) Your HOA forbids the plastic pink flamingos anywhere on your property, including indoors. You have a bedroom crammed with plastic pink flamingos and your nosy neighbor sees them when she visits. The neighbor makes an anonymous complaint to the association. Since the plastic pink flamingos are not visible except from inside your home, the association representative cannot see them without getting your permission to come inside and you have refused him such permission. Since the association representative has not personally witnessed the violation he cannot be the complainant. If the nosy neighbor is not willing to be identified her complaint would normally be dismissed.

PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posted:
We do pretty much as Larry described. We will accept anonymous complaints for everything except Noxious Activities, such as, but not limited to, loud parties, dogs leaving their property, leaving outside lights on all night, or other activities that are an "unreasonable or unusual annoyance to neighboring properties."

In those cases we require a written complaint and the agreement from the complainant to appear at the hearing. If an appearance is not possible the Covenants Committee will consider a complete written and signed statement.

It was our Committee's position that not accepting anonymous complaints would result in many violations not being reported. In many discussions with members, almost to a person, they would say "I don't want to get involved." It is difficult for our Compliance Inspector to be pro-active on all 6,400 properties. Seems to work pretty well, as mentioned earlier in the 16 years I was Chairman of our Covenants Committee we only had 6 appeals, none of which were granted.

Paul T
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Paul

The size of you place (area and homes) would make for a very large task. I think the far majority of folks posting here live in developments that are much smaller. so they often pass by the entire place.

In my last HOA the ARC do not go looking for violations. Granted some jumped up and bit us as we could readily see them. In that case one asked an ARC member to take a look at it.

If anonymous complaint, one of the ARC members would take a look. If it exists then the ARC became the complainer and no one knew who anonymously reported it.

The ARC writes up the complaint and sends a letter (Letter 1) to the violator specifying the violation and asks that the situation be rectified within a given period of time. If not rectified, Letter 2 goes out informing them fines (and the amount) will commence within 15 days if not corrected. Letter 3 goes out commencing the fines.

Candidly we never made it public one had the right to appeal to the BOD but we never hid the fact either. We decided if we readily notified them, say in Letter 3, then they would automatically appeal to try and delay things. When asked, we always informed them they could appeal.

Few appealed (not saying all paid the fines but another issue) to the BOD and the BOD never reversed an ARC Ruling.

Hope this helps.

TomL2 (Florida)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 09/16/2012 10:35 PM

2) Your HOA forbids the plastic pink flamingos anywhere on your property, including indoors. You have a bedroom crammed with plastic pink flamingos and your nosy neighbor sees them when she visits. The neighbor makes an anonymous complaint to the association. Since the plastic pink flamingos are not visible except from inside your home, the association representative cannot see them without getting your permission to come inside and you have refused him such permission. Since the association representative has not personally witnessed the violation he cannot be the complainant. If the nosy neighbor is not willing to be identified her complaint would normally be dismissed.


Funny you post this analogy because a fairly new resident is keeping chickens on their back porch. Deed restrictions prohibits them.
You can't see them but you can hear them.
Without being able to go inside you can't really prove they are there.
They deny having chickens and say someone else outside the development does and the sound just echos off the woods and makes it sound like they have the chickens. This is a post for an entirely different thread but thought it funny how try the scenario is to the one posted.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/17/2012 8:00 AM
Paul

The size of you place (area and homes) would make for a very large task. I think the far majority of folks posting here live in developments that are much smaller. so they often pass by the entire place.

In my last HOA the ARC do not go looking for violations. Granted some jumped up and bit us as we could readily see them. In that case one asked an ARC member to take a look at it.

If anonymous complaint, one of the ARC members would take a look. If it exists then the ARC became the complainer and no one knew who anonymously reported it.

The ARC writes up the complaint and sends a letter (Letter 1) to the violator specifying the violation and asks that the situation be rectified within a given period of time. If not rectified, Letter 2 goes out informing them fines (and the amount) will commence within 15 days if not corrected. Letter 3 goes out commencing the fines.

Candidly we never made it public one had the right to appeal to the BOD but we never hid the fact either. We decided if we readily notified them, say in Letter 3, then they would automatically appeal to try and delay things. When asked, we always informed them they could appeal.

Few appealed (not saying all paid the fines but another issue) to the BOD and the BOD never reversed an ARC Ruling.

Hope this helps.


John,

Your description is pretty close to what we do also. The right of appeal is included in all of our correspondence. Some time back my mother lived in a 50 to 60 unit HOA. As she progressed My wife and I gradually took over her responsibilities, including working with the HOA. There were a lot of similarities in her HOA and our present one. Although they had property management they were, in my opinion, pretty loose in documentation, resulting in some messy lawsuits. In our present HOA, as we lost the ability to lien for unpaid fines, we have lots of them.

Paul T

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