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GregL6 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 11
Posted:
After 6 years our HOA is finally being handed over from the Developer. As stated in the CCR the Developer can appoint the Board.

My family and I were the first in the neighborhood and have a copy of a CCR that apparently no one else has. I am told that the President worked with the Developer to re-write the CCR.

On top of that we just recieved an invoice for the first ever annual dues. There has been no posted meetings nor have we been supplied a copy of a budget. Five days ago I emailed all members of the appointed board requesting a copy of the budget and minutes from any meetings. As of yet I have gotten no response except my email read reciepts.

Questions
1.) Can the CCR be changed without any posted meeting?
2.) Does a budget need to be supplied prior to a required payment?
3.) Is there a requirment to make all meetings open and posted in advance?
4.) Is the board obligated to supply a copy of the minutes of any meeting?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Greg,

Because of the way Oklahoma Statutes are presented on the web, they are very difficult to quickly go through. Based on what little research I did, it appears that OK only has a condominium act and not a Homeowners Association Act. Therefore, expecting that you are in an HOA and not a COA (condominium), most of your answers will be contained within your own governing documents.

Quote:
Posted By GregL6 on 09/11/2012 7:07 AM
A
1.) Can the CCR be changed without any posted meeting?

Possibly. It is typical for the CC&Rs to allow the Declarant to amend the CC&Rs on their own. You will need to read your CC&Rs to determine how they may be amended.

Quote:
Posted By GregL6 on 09/11/2012 7:07 AM
A
2.) Does a budget need to be supplied prior to a required payment?

I have never seen a statute that requires that the budget be provided prior to sending out invoices for assessments.

I have seen statutes that require COA membership to approve the budget but HOAs typically do not have such requirements. You will need to check your governing documents (CC&Rs, Bylaws, etc.) and State statutes to be sure.

Quote:
Posted By GregL6 on 09/11/2012 7:07 AM
A
3.) Is there a requirement to make all meetings open and posted in advance?

This requirement is typically a State law or contained within the governing documents. If you are in an HOA, there is no statute I could find that would indicate such a requirement.

Quote:
Posted By GregL6 on 09/11/2012 7:07 AM
A
4.) Is the board obligated to supply a copy of the minutes of any meeting?

Typically Associations are required to allow members to inspect Association records. These records would include the minutes. Please note that inspection is not the same as providing a copy.

This requirement is usually found within State HOA, COA or Corporate statutes and/or within the Associations governing documents. If your governing documents provide this requirement you don't need to search the OK statutes. If your an HOA, the only OK statute that might apply would be the Corporate statutes (typically non-profit corporations). However, corporate law only applies if your association is incorporated.

Hope this helps,

Tim

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Greg,

CC&R's usually have language within them as to how to amend their provisions. Normally, a certain percentage of property owners is required to approve an amendment. The percentage can range from as little as a simple majority to 100% and the amendment must be recorded.

One point of confusion is that the developer/declarant gives himself superior voting power so that he may control the board as long as he is still selling lots. The confusion is that developers may believe that their ability to control the board also allows them to amend the CC&R's at will.

My recommendation is that you examine your CC&R's thoroughly to learn how they may be amended.

Since you said that your CC&R's seem different than others, pay a visit to your county recorder and pull up all declarations recorded for your community. If the version that was tendered to you at the time of sale is not recorded or if the CC&R's have been amended without owner approval, you may have a cause of action against the developer.

GregL6 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 11
Posted:
WOW...thank you Tim.

All of the research I found also led me to believe that we must be filed as a Corporation. So Corporation Statutes are binding. In that case, as I read it, all meetings must be posted and open just as any Corporation with share holders.

I am surprised that laws regarding Corporations are used as the rules around HOA, but it does make sense. All members in our neighborhood do have a stake in a large investment.
GregL6 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 11
Posted:
WOW...thank you Tim.

All of the research I found also led me to believe that we must be filed as a Corporation. So Corporation Statutes are binding. In that case, as I read it, all meetings must be posted and open just as any Corporation with share holders.

I am surprised that laws regarding Corporations are used as the rules around HOA, but it does make sense. All members in our neighborhood do have a stake in a large investment.
GregL6 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 11
Posted:
LarryB..thank you

What if the Developer filed with the state after we purchased our lot. In other words, what if there was no legally recognized entity prior to our lot purchase.

Does that change anything??
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GregL6 on 09/11/2012 8:17 AM
LarryB..thank you

What if the Developer filed with the state after we purchased our lot. In other words, what if there was no legally recognized entity prior to our lot purchase.

Does that change anything??

The CC&R's are separate and distinct from articles of incorporation and bylaws.

The CC&R's are known by many names but are the deed restrictions on your property. Somewhere in them will be a provision that makes you a member of the association by virtue of owning property in that development. The CC&R's are typically recorded at a local level and would be filed at the same office where your deed is recorded. Your deed most likely contains wording to the effect that your property is subject to the restrictions recorded in book xxx, page yyy of the records of the zzz recorder. If CC&R's were not recorded prior to your purchase of the property, they do not apply as they cannot be tacked on after the fact.

The association, if incorporated, will be formed at the state level by filing articles of incorporation with whatever agency regulates corporations in your state. Ideally, this should be done before the developer sells his first lot but I have been unable to find any case law addressing this issue. My best guess at this time is that incorporating the association some time after sales have been made is not a fatal error.

Bylaws are essentially a statement of how the association will operate. They will typically address issues such as who may serve on the board of directors, number of directors, length of term, etc. There seems to be an endless variety of how corporations are formed, so your state's laws will address many issues including whether the bylaws get recorded anywhere.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Greg

Rarely have I ever seen Covenants and Bylaws that could not be changed by the Declarant as they so desired to while they were still in contrrol. We are presently working with our Declarant so he can make changes to make it easier for we homeowners when we take over this coming year.

Some will be:

1. Allow proxy voting.
2. Allow the BOD to increase dues 5% per year without homeowner approval.
3. Eliminate BOD Election Nominating Committee.
4. Voting majority to be 2/3rd's instead of 75%.

Bottom line is usually the declarant controls until a specific number of units/homes are sold as in closed on by a buyer. Our number is 85%.

Usually the only meeting a Declarant has to give notice about is the Annual Meeting.

Hope this helps.
GregL6 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 11
Posted:
I am very confused.

I understood the Covenance to be like the Constitution. It can be changed, but only by the vast majority of the HOA members. After all, it is a binding contractual agreement between the purchaser of a property and the Developer or Declarant. Contracts are normally mutually binding.

What I am reading is that the Covenance can be changed at will by the Declarant.

If this is correct, what protections do the average HOA member have?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
The protection comes when you the homeowners take over the HOA. When that happens you all will need to modify and ammend your CC&R's to your liking. It's best to remove all references and eliminate the old voting system the declarant has in place. It is time ya hire a lawyer familiar with corporate or business law to assist in developing the new set of CC&R's.

I would also suggest when and if you change them...To lower the amount or percentage of owners it takes to make those changes. Our CC*R's required a 90% membership vote and a special meeting. All else like the by-laws and incorporation documents required 75% and a special meeting. We were able to by-pass the special meeting requirement but not the percentage. HOA's suffer from apathy and distant landlords in their future. It's best now to lower those numbers but still keep the majority vote. Believe me, 90% votes are nearly impossible to meet 20 plus years in your HOA...

Former HOA President
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Greg

Generally the Covenants are written so that they Declarant pretty much is in control until turnover to homeowners. Have you read yours to see how and when the declarant must turn over the association to the owners?

Look at it this way. If you were to undertake construction of say a 100 home HOA development, would you want a handful of owners controlling it early on? Were it me, I would want them out of my way until I was done then let them do as they jolly well wish to do.

SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814
Posted:
Greg - it's not clear as to what stage your HOA is in: are you technicially STILL undercontrol of the declarant? If so, you are in his sand box and he/she still calls the rules.

If there has been a legal "turnover" - with an elected board from the current members - then that's different.

Usually there is a lawyer called in to help the members with this turnover. You need to find out what stage this is all in . . .
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GregL6 on 09/12/2012 5:50 AM

What I am reading is that the Covenance can be changed at will by the Declarant.

If this is correct, what protections do the average HOA member have?

The Contract (CC&Rs) can be amended (changed) according to the procedure outlined within the document.

We are saying that it is typical, when under declarant control, for the document to be written allowing the declarant to either change the document on their own.
OR
To have the voting power (by assigning 1 vote per lot for members and more than 1 vote per lot to the developer aka class a and b membership) to change the document irregardless of what the homeowners desire.

Why is it this way? It's this way because the declarant wrote the initial contract and typically the individual who wrote the contract will make it favor them. Once control of the membership is transferred to the members, it becomes fairer (as all members will typically only have 1 vote per lot).

GregL6 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 11
Posted:
We are in the turn over stage now. Problem is, until the Declarant has sold every single lot he still controls everything. He has 1000 votes for every lot he owns.

The the Declarant appointed a board and I know none of these people.

The Board has sent an invoice for annual dues and will not show a budget. The Developer/ Declarant has been less that forthright for the past 6 years. I have no idea how the money will be spent (estimate about $60,000).

Obviously the money will pay for maintenance and utilities. My concern is where the remainder is going. Is the Declarant leaving us with a deficit? Is the Declarant forcing the board through projects to spend money to assist him in selling the remaining lots?

I have emailed all of the board members and have not recieved a response...at all, none, nada.

I have seen mention that we need to hire an attorney. I agree. There are actually two attorney's on the Board, which should be a positive, but why would no one respond to my request for information?

What I am reading is that HOA members have no protection and could literally be forced into bankrupcy due to actions of the Declarant. Am I wrong?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GregL6 on 09/12/2012 6:43 AM

What I am reading is that HOA members have no protection and could literally be forced into bankrupcy due to actions of the Declarant. Am I wrong?

Granted it's true that members typically have little say when the Association is under declarant control. However, the Association must still comply with the governing documents and applicable State laws (in your case, that would only be corporate laws and only if the association is incorporated). Even if the declarant controls the voting power, if an meeting is required to adopt/amend a document, a meeting must be held and any notice requirements met.

In the long run, while under declarant control, it's best to work with the developer (more flies with honey type of thing). Perhaps volunteer to serve on the Board or a committee. This way you can keep informed and provide input from a members perspective.

Unfortunately, if the membership doesn't become involved it is possible for an individual (or individuals), be they the declarant or owners, to cause problems for the Association. This can include bankruptcy.

As I said, the best defense against this is to become involved. This can be done by just attending meetings, serving on committees or running for the Board. Typically, issues can be minimized when most of the membership is involved.

GregL6 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 11
Posted:
I am still operating under the hope that the Board is doing the best for the HOA as a whole. My concern is what the Declarant is somehow keeping them from communicating.

Is it unusual that Board members would not respond to requests to see the budget or even respond or have meetings to discuss moving forward?

I cannot be involved if they won't even communicate.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Here is a concept...Maybe the board does NOT know what the budget will be? That may be the reason they have not responded. They aren't to release a budget until the first of the year when they take over. There are many factors they have to figure out first before they can even develop a budget or estimate on dues. Right now I am sure the dues are just a rough estimate and a trial run so to speak to get things going. You need money to make money or in the case of the HOA, to get money to run independently...

What people overlook in a HOA is that the developer experiences a different debt load than the owners will. The developer buys a partition of land for example 100 acres. They then clear it, break it up, and sell 100 1 acre lots. Their expenses are then tied up in building expenses such as building a clubhouse, installing a pool, or other amenities. However, when the owner's take over their expenses will be the MAINTENANCE and OPERATIONS costs of the HOA. It's much easier to estimate the cost of building a clubhouse than to estimate the long term costs of maintaining that clubhouse. The most expense of a HOA eventually falls onto the shoulders of all it's members once the declarant gets out.

So your HOA board has the job now of figuring out the costs of utilities, insurance, repairs, hiring contractors, legal services, establishing a reserves account, estimating daily costs of operations, and an abundance of other details to finally reach an equitable dues amount. Expect that amount to fluctuate until the real costs and not just estimates come into play.

It's like getting a new job and a new paycheck. How long before you figured out budgeting for your bills and expenses? Imagine 5 to 7 strangers on a board trying to do the same thing. There are going to be issues and there may not be necessarily all the openness you want. It doesn't matter if you know someone on the board or not. If you want to be involved then make it known you want to be involved. Find out when meetings will happen and when you can run for a board position after transition.


Former HOA President
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Here is a concept...Maybe the board does NOT know what the budget will be? That may be the reason they have not responded. They aren't to release a budget until the first of the year when they take over. There are many factors they have to figure out first before they can even develop a budget or estimate on dues. Right now I am sure the dues are just a rough estimate and a trial run so to speak to get things going. You need money to make money or in the case of the HOA, to get money to run independently...

What people overlook in a HOA is that the developer experiences a different debt load than the owners will. The developer buys a partition of land for example 100 acres. They then clear it, break it up, and sell 100 1 acre lots. Their expenses are then tied up in building expenses such as building a clubhouse, installing a pool, or other amenities. However, when the owner's take over their expenses will be the MAINTENANCE and OPERATIONS costs of the HOA. It's much easier to estimate the cost of building a clubhouse than to estimate the long term costs of maintaining that clubhouse. The most expense of a HOA eventually falls onto the shoulders of all it's members once the declarant gets out.

So your HOA board has the job now of figuring out the costs of utilities, insurance, repairs, hiring contractors, legal services, establishing a reserves account, estimating daily costs of operations, and an abundance of other details to finally reach an equitable dues amount. Expect that amount to fluctuate until the real costs and not just estimates come into play.

It's like getting a new job and a new paycheck. How long before you figured out budgeting for your bills and expenses? Imagine 5 to 7 strangers on a board trying to do the same thing. There are going to be issues and there may not be necessarily all the openness you want. It doesn't matter if you know someone on the board or not. If you want to be involved then make it known you want to be involved. Find out when meetings will happen and when you can run for a board position after transition.


Former HOA President
GregL6 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Melissa, perhaps you did not read the entire thread.

The Board has been meeting without notifying anyone. I have unsuccessfully, attempted to contact them since I found out the HOA is actively moving forward. The Board was hand picked by the Declarant and no volunteers have been requested.

I have never missed a meeting of which I was made aware. None of the Board Members will respond to my emails for information.

As far as the budget goes. The Declarant knows the cost of maintenance, utilitiies and insurance as he has been paying them for 6 years. We have no club house, pool or any other ammenities at this time. That is part of what concerns me.

The Developer/ Declarant has been making empty promises to potential residents for several years now. I am concerned that he will sign contracts and agreements that benefit his lot sales or the builders in the name of the HOA and then step out with the HOA holding the bill.

As a former HOA President, did you invoice for dues without supplying a copy of the budget to your members? Did you ask for input on the budget? If someone emailed you asking for bugetary numbers that you had not finalized, would you simply not respond?

Am I just being overly concerned about a huge investment that I have made?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Your putting the cart before the horse right now sorry to say...The board is NOT volunteer but assigned by the developer who is still in control. The developer is probably making promises they can't keep or keeping promises the HOA can't afford. Either way, until the time comes the actual homeowner's take over, your all kind of SOL...

Just keep going to the meetings that are announced. They can have executive type meetings that are closed. Those topics are usually done to sort details out to be better understood when talking to the general membership later. I'd often have to discuss an issue before the meeting to get our ducks in a row instead of debating for hours on end in front of everyone confusing and frustrating everyone.

Once transition happens then you will have more power and say and more access to records. Right now the developer can keep that underwraps until the final take over. Which I am hoping you are all working on getting a new volunteer board in place from your general membership. One not assigned by the developer. Nothing stopping you all from doing that...

Former HOA President
GregL6 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 11
Posted:
A volunteer board ready to step is is a great idea. Of course the Developer put people in place that he knew would just go along.

What really scares me is that we really are not rid of the Developer until he has sold his last lot. He gets 1000 votes for every lot he still owns.

So am I stuck...just pay the invoice or can I demand to see a budget first??
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Greg,

With every decision there are intended and unintended consequences.
You did enter into a contractual obligation to pay assessments.

I have not searched OK statutes and I do not have access to your governing documents. Therefore, I can not comment on if the Board has to honor any demand to provide such documentation. You will need to search your governing documents and read the OK statutes to make that determination.

Only you can make the decision as to pay or not as you (and not I) will have to deal with the consequences involved in that decision.

Personally, if it were me, I would pay the assessment and request a budget. Of course I would research the governing documents and State statutes to find something that supports my request and cite it when I make the request. This will demonstrate that I have done my research, that the law is on my side and inform the Board of their requirement to provide it (if they didn't know).

Tim
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GregL6 on 09/12/2012 5:50 AM
I am very confused.

I understood the Covenance to be like the Constitution. It can be changed, but only by the vast majority of the HOA members. After all, it is a binding contractual agreement between the purchaser of a property and the Developer or Declarant. Contracts are normally mutually binding.

What I am reading is that the Covenance can be changed at will by the Declarant.

If this is correct, what protections do the average HOA member have?

The covenants (CC&R's) usually have a provision for amending them. I personally have never seen one where the declarant may unilaterally amend them at will. Some percentage of property owners must approve, although if the declarant still has a bunch of unsold lots he may have sufficient power to amend.

Some states have held that amendments are limited and that new requirements cannot be added. An Arizona case held that the CC&R's could not be amended to force owners to join a community club. The courts in Colorado do not share that view.

I would think that it would be difficult to obtain a mortgage in a community where the declarant could change everything at will.

One point of confusion is that while the declarant may not be able to amend the CC&R's by himself, he can take control of the association. Controlling the association and amending the CC&R's are two very different things.
GregL6 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Tim, Melissa thank you. You have been very helpful. Not what I was hoping to hear, but at least you didn't just defend the developer.

I cannot get past the fact that the covenance are a contract between the purchaser and the developer. I have been signing binding contracts for nearly 20 years and never have I heard of a binding contract that allows one party to completly steam roll the other. I read the covenance and did not see the giant loop hole, but I am not a lawyer.

We have several lawyers in the neighborhood and I guess I am surprised they would agree to this nightmare. Truth is, most of my neighbors eyes just gloss over when I explain the pitfalls of the way this business is being conducted.

I have been apart of 3 other HOA just not an HOA that had not been turned over. Never again.
GregL6 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Tim, Melissa thank you. You have been very helpful. Not what I was hoping to hear, but at least you didn't just defend the developer.

I cannot get past the fact that the covenance are a contract between the purchaser and the developer. I have been signing binding contracts for nearly 20 years and never have I heard of a binding contract that allows one party to completly steam roll the other. I read the covenance and did not see the giant loop hole, but I am not a lawyer.

We have several lawyers in the neighborhood and I guess I am surprised they would agree to this nightmare. Truth is, most of my neighbors eyes just gloss over when I explain the pitfalls of the way this business is being conducted.

I have been apart of 3 other HOA just not an HOA that had not been turned over. Never again.

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