Cursing/shouting at HOA staff

Me again.

A few years ago because of a handful of incidents, our Board, following the proper CA procedures, made a rule that if residents or their invitees curse, shout, harass, try to bully, any of our staffers, the unit owner would be immediately called to hearing and potentially fined $100. The incident requires corroboration.

A new owner here asked me yesterday--in a friendly way-- whether this rule violates people's rights to free speech in the USA. I replied that our staffers need to go about their tasks without fear of residents or others berating them. I also mumbled something about the private realm being different than the public realm.

We have 4 janitors here 8 hours a day each, 2 security officers on duty at all times (but only one from 2-8am), a chief and an assistant engineer M-F, 8-5, and a general and assistant manager, M-F 8:30-5:30. So there are quite a few visible "targets."

I haven't looked into the topic, but will today.

I and other board members certainly would understand it if something unexpected and bad happened to a resident, say the automatic gate malfunctions bashing into a car and the driver yells at the kiosk officer. So, I'm not talking about extreme examples.

What are your opinions??

It is quite common in "member owned" places for a member to feel like they own the place and all employees work for them so they can dress down an employee. Early on in life, I was called before the discipline committee at our member owned, private club because I had dressed an employee down. I was politely informed we did not talk to our "staff" like that and in the future if I had an issue with a staff member, I was to dicuss it with a memmber of our house committee not the staff member. I learned.

Maybe your owners have to be reminded that employess work for the BOD, not the individual owners and the BOD will handle all employee issues and that repeated rude behaviour toward "staff" will not be tolerated and one could be fined for such.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, Larry. I did poke around a little online and felt better about my reply to the new owner, which your response says better: While the US government may not restrict rights to free speech, private associations may, as John's example illustrates so well.

Our Rules & Regulations are one of our governing docs per our CC&Rs. Per Davis-Stirling, Boards may add rules, but must discuss them first at an open meeting, then send out the proposed rules to Owners for a 30-day comment period. When the Board meets again in an open meeting to consider implementing (or removing!) rules, it takes the comments into account and then votes.

About four years ago, an ad hoc Rules Committee reviewed all of the rules. There were some we removed as unreasonable or unenforceable; for instance, no one was supposed to use the 2 stairwells in each of our 2 high rise towers except in an emergency. No one was allowed to bring anything made out of glass to the BBQ area, which is next to but separated from the pool area. There were a couple of other similarly unreasonable ones that we eliminated, including the prohibition against any kind of floatable toys in the pool except for water wings.

We also added a few including the prohibition against shouting at and inappropriate behavior towards staff due to a rash of ugly incidents witnessed by many at that time. No Owner objected to implementing that rule during the comment period.

There always has been a rule here against shouting and other loud & noisy behavior as there is in most high rises or other settings where folks live very closely to one another. In a sense, shouting at staff expands that rule. As with residents who have a right to the peaceful enjoyment of their homes, staff should be treated with civility so that they can peacefully go about their daily duties. Staffers are directed by management to politely refer any complaints to them (the P.M.) and we've really have very few problems along those lines since the rule was published--so I don't think our gate attendant would get into an argument with the pizza guy.

We have a few rules that involve an immediate call to hearing if violated, not a hearing held immediately. "Immediate" in this case just means without an initial first "courtesy" letter, but still requires 15 days written notice before the hearing per CA civil code.

Interesting, Bruce. So you're thinking that the shouter could argue her/his civil rights to free speech were violated?

I, just now, also am thinking that a staffer could sue us if we knowingly permitted, let's say, Mr. A. to repeatedly insult a custodian. I believe we could be accused of condoning a hostile workplace environment, or some such. But I don't know about these matters.

This isn't a first ammendment right to free speech issue at all. It's a police issue. If someone is yelling, cursing, and acting in a threatening manner there are laws against that. Call the police or ask the person to calm down to collect their thought if they are just passionate about something. You can express your words anyway you want but you can't use them as threats or cross a physical line with them.

You basically have set up a "cussing jar" for your HOA. Nothing more or less than that. That is how I would address the issue. Put a quarter in for every "F" word...etc... However, call 911 when the person goes for your throat while saying those words.... Put some common sense to this situaton and stop looking at the consitution of the USA for (*&*^*& sake!!!

Bruce wrote: "I'm thinking maybe someday I'll read about some condo association that is being sued by a homeowner because the association tried to fine him for saying something that a maintenance employee didn't happen to like."

Among all of the examples that you gave, Bruce, the above quote seems to be the only one that even remotely fits our rule. But our rule is about shouting at staff and there must be a witness. So if a resident instructs a custodian to dust the baseboards in the lobby, the custodian could politely decline saying it's on her schedule for tomorrow or quickly do it if it didn't interfere with her assignments for that day.

Our rule, though, would protect that staffer if the resident started shouting at the custodian about the quality of her work and that loud, noisy & obnoxious behavior was witnessed. Even in that case, all of our staffers are trained by the PM to encourage the complainer to see management with their concerns. If the resident persists, the staffer is directed to walk away.

The other side of the, I guess, ACLU coin would be if our HOA's Board permitted staff to be shouted at, called names or otherwise insulted. I still haven't looked it up, but I think that the staffer could claim that she had to quit her job and lose income because of a "hostile workplace," and that neither the PM nor the Board did anything to prevent the troubling behavior.

When there had been some incidents about four years ago, one target was our then-Assistant Mgr., who was young, of Asian descent, and very petite. The behavior towards her was shouting & profanity (but not threats) by a big, male, caucasian owner looming over her desk. So, the danger to our HOA could've been claims that involved both gender & race. (P.S. the woman now is the PM of a 90-unit downtown high rise.)

Thanks for your thoughts, Melissa. So far as I know there have never been any threats against staff--verbal or otherwise. If there were physical threats, of course the police would be called. And I don' think there's a need for a cussing jar as, since the gaggle of incidents a few years back, we haven't had reports of profanity directed at staff.

Carol,

I have some serious doubts about whether the association can regulate its members thoughts, emotions, and speech. What does your board rely on for its authority to do so?

I just took a quick look at Davis-Stirling.com and found this definition of operating rules:

"'Operating rule' means a regulation adopted by the board of directors of the association that applies generally to the management and operation of the common interest development or the conduct of the business and affairs of the association." Civil Code §1357.100.

Your no-cursing rule does not pertain to the management or operation of the development nor does it pertain to the conduct of the business and affairs of the association. The rule pertains entirely to how members may speak. And not only members, but their invitees as well.

As to the hostile work environment, I have never heard of a case where a worker prevailed because non-employees cursed at them. If that were grounds for a lawsuit, then every telephone solicitor, bill collector, and door-to-door salesman would have a case. Police officers would have a field day. "Your Honor, it was a hostile environment. Bank robbers were shooting at me!" And firemen: "Your Honor, they made me go into burning buildings!"

The board has the responsibility for protecting employees under its direction from harassment. It cannot be passive and, besides, complaints should be directed to the HOA board and not the employee. Sure, a resident may shout at a janitor and the board can direct the janitor not to serve the area around the property until the behavior ceases...and it will cease. Otherwise, you're ordering a paid employee into a hostile work environment.

I'd take my chances with the blowhard property owner over an employee with an easy legal case against the entire community given the documented on-the-job abuse.