A/V recording of meetings

Started by LarryL7 • 33 replies • 3359 views

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LarryL7 (Arizona)
Posts: 1

Posted:

In Arizona we are legally able to record meetings of our HOA Board, as long as it is an open session. Recently my HOA has adopted rules that state that these records are only allowed to be shown to member of the community and can only be shown to people outside of the community if they press legal action. The board attempts to threaten members by saying that there will be fines, but has not said what these fines will be.
They said that such recordings are not allowed to be released to any internet website or social media site unless members of the community can see them.
Any suggestions? If a member of the community wanted to got to the press to show the video based on the rules that could not do it.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Hi Larry,

I am not an attorney and I do not work in the legal profession. For a legal opinion, you will need to contact a local attorney.

Typically, the owner of the recording may do what they wish with the video (providing the recording was made legally).

I do not think that the rule your board made would survive a challenge. Of course, to challenge it, one would have to first break the rule and have the issue heard in court. This will be expensive as there will be attorney fees and court costs on both sides. It's also possible that the losing side would have to pay the reasonable legal costs of the winning side. Since going to court is usually a 50/50 chance - everyone has to make their own decision.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

Larry,

If you want to record your HOA board's open meetings and go to the media, go for it. HOA rules won't override your state laws protecting such speech - fines included.

You'll get a soapbox, get to embarrass your directors, create a permanent adversary as well as place your entire community, on a permanent basis, in the public sphere and in cyberspace as a troubled community that may affect the allure of your community to potential home buyers. The world will only find your news reports and edited board meetings and never learn when the community finally unites and operates peacefully (which isn't news or interesting to general public).

I seek these type videos on YouTube for a chuckle. There are videos of this Florida HOA board president yelling, "You are OUT OF ORDER!" to residents. Serious to them, funny to everyone else. Be careful here. It's a "nuclear option."

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KellyM3 on 08/08/2012 6:36 AM
Larry,

If you want to record your HOA board's open meetings and go to the media, go for it. HOA rules won't override your state laws protecting such speech - fines included.

You'll get a soapbox, get to embarrass your directors, create a permanent adversary as well as place your entire community, on a permanent basis, in the public sphere and in cyberspace as a troubled community that may affect the allure of your community to potential home buyers. The world will only find your news reports and edited board meetings and never learn when the community finally unites and operates peacefully (which isn't news or interesting to general public).

I seek these type videos on YouTube for a chuckle. There are videos of this Florida HOA board president yelling, "You are OUT OF ORDER!" to residents. Serious to them, funny to everyone else. Be careful here. It's a "nuclear option."

Well said.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 08/08/2012 6:31 AM
Typically, the owner of the recording may do what they wish with the video (providing the recording was made legally).

There is, however, the possibility of a civil suit by the individuals whose images appear in the video for showing their images publicly without permission and without compensation. Professionals protect themselves by having individuals sign model releases in exchange for some small compensation. Only legitimate news sources are generally protected from such civil suits. Thus, if you turn your footage over to the local TV station and they use it, you likely are safe. However, you are at risk if you show the footage publicly on your own.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

The statute that authorizes taping is ARS 33-1804.

The revelant part of it reads:
"Notwithstanding any provision in the declaration, bylaws or other documents to the contrary, all meetings of the members' association and the board of directors, and any regularly scheduled committee meetings, are open to all members of the association or any person designated by a member in writing as the member's representative . . . Persons attending may tape record or videotape those portions of the meetings of the board of directors and meetings of the members that are open. The board of directors of the association may adopt reasonable rules governing the taping of open portions of the meetings of the board and the membership, but such rules shall not preclude such tape recording or videotaping by those attending."

My personal interpretation of adopting "reasonable rules" means that the board can restrict someone from walking around or jumping from place to place to get a better camera shot. The wording is that the board can make rules regarding the taping, that is, the process of making a recording. Nothing in the statute permits the board to control the content of the tapes, who sees them, when, or where.

Since by law the meeting must be open to members and their invitees and the meeting may be recorded, there is no expectation of privacy and a person whose images appear on a tape has no recourse.

The full text of the statute is at
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/33/01804.htm&Title=33&DocType=ARS

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 08/08/2012 8:24 AM
The statute that authorizes taping is ARS 33-1804.

The revelant part of it reads:
"Notwithstanding any provision in the declaration, bylaws or other documents to the contrary, all meetings of the members' association and the board of directors, and any regularly scheduled committee meetings, are open to all members of the association or any person designated by a member in writing as the member's representative . . . Persons attending may tape record or videotape those portions of the meetings of the board of directors and meetings of the members that are open. The board of directors of the association may adopt reasonable rules governing the taping of open portions of the meetings of the board and the membership, but such rules shall not preclude such tape recording or videotaping by those attending."

My personal interpretation of adopting "reasonable rules" means that the board can restrict someone from walking around or jumping from place to place to get a better camera shot. The wording is that the board can make rules regarding the taping, that is, the process of making a recording. Nothing in the statute permits the board to control the content of the tapes, who sees them, when, or where.

Since by law the meeting must be open to members and their invitees and the meeting may be recorded, there is no expectation of privacy and a person whose images appear on a tape has no recourse.

The full text of the statute is at
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/33/01804.htm&Title=33&DocType=ARS

This is the way I would see it.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Ah but here's the rub, they aren't prohibiting video taping the meeting, they are setting reasonable (at least to their minds) rules on where the tapes may be displayed.

Quote:

Posted By JosephW on 06/20/2007 6:22 AM
First, if your documents don't directly state it, adopt a policy that clearly states that meetings of the association, whether a board, annual or general meeting are private, limited to the members, their proxies, or legal representatives. That materials distributed by or obtained from the association may not be disseminated outside of the association, other than to an owner's legal counsel or agent. That video or audio recordings of meetings of the board or of the members cannot be released or distributed outside of the association without the written consent of the board and any owner who appears in or was present at the meeting.

In other words, what goes on in the association should stay in the association. This doesn't stop people from going to the media or from providing information to their counsel as needed, but it might make people think before posting that video of the annual meeting to YouTube.

Joe

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 08/08/2012 9:23 AM
Ah but here's the rub, they aren't prohibiting video taping the meeting, they are setting reasonable (at least to their minds) rules on where the tapes may be displayed.

State law requires the board to allow taping but gives the board some control over how the tape will be recorded. If the Legislature wanted the board to control what members do with the tapes it would have said so.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

In Arizona, the Legislature has already determined who may attend and probably did so in response to those associations who attempted to conceal their activities.

Quote:

Posted By JosephW on 06/20/2007 6:22 AM
That materials distributed by or obtained from the association may not be disseminated outside of the association, other than to an owner's legal counsel or agent.

Once you hand out materials they belong to the person you gave them to. They can do as they wish with them. If you do not want others to see the materials do not hand them out. As someone else has pointed out on this forum, your HOA is not the White House Situation Room.

Quote:

Posted By JosephW on 06/20/2007 6:22 AM
That video or audio recordings of meetings of the board or of the members cannot be released or distributed outside of the association without the written consent of the board and any owner who appears in or was present at the meeting.

And the legal authority would be . . . ?

Quote:

Posted By JosephW on 06/20/2007 6:22 AM
In other words, what goes on in the association should stay in the association. This doesn't stop people from going to the media or from providing information to their counsel as needed, but it might make people think before posting that video of the annual meeting to YouTube.

Most of us non-members could care less about your HOA unless the association is abusing its discretion and attempting to control the legal activities of its members.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Larry these are the kinds of things that make lawyers wealthy. It is generally established that you have no expectation of privacy in a public setting but a meeting of an HOA taking place on HOA property is not a public setting. Now most HOA meetings are as dry as toast and of no particular interest to anyone not living in the HOA. I personally think knowing that someone is videotaping the meeting and it could go up on YouTube will keep people from acting like an ass but maybe that's just me.

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 08/08/2012 10:44 AM

State law requires the board to allow taping but gives the board some control over how the tape will be recorded. If the Legislature wanted the board to control what members do with the tapes it would have said so.

Could it not conversely be argued that since the legislature did not specifically grant the right to publicly disseminate the tape, that no right exists? Like I said the stuff lawyers dream about.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

Larry, can't help it; I'm curious about why you copied a post from 2007 from "JosephW," and pepper this person with questions? Do you really expect him to answer? I don't recall seeing that name during the 1-1/2 yrs. of so I've been following this site.

Next, are you the one who wants to AV your HOA meetings and distribute the results to the general public, the press, or whomever? Or are you just interested in folks' opinions?

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

I personally say record the meetings and do whatever you want with them. I record the meetings I attend for numerous reasons (record keeping, alerting those not in attendance of what was said, highlighting lies, keeping the BoD accountable,etc.). But I can definitely seeing some judge ruling such restrictions are reasonable. The question than would be "Is it worth the fight?"

One thing is certain - you will make enemies fast! When I first brought my camera, I did it mainly for an out-of-town resident to see what was going on at the meeting. Some members immediately attacked my filming, making snide comments or trying to get the board to have me stop filming. I didn't make a scene, remained quiet and respectful, and never escalated the confrontations with other homeowners but some instantly felt recording was commiting a crime (despite the law saying otherwise).

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Larry,

Do whatever you want at your own risk. You can still be sued by the subjects shown in your video for exhibiting it publicly without their permission or compensation.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarolR11 on 08/08/2012 1:49 PM
Larry, can't help it; I'm curious about why you copied a post from 2007 from "JosephW," and pepper this person with questions? Do you really expect him to answer? I don't recall seeing that name during the 1-1/2 yrs. of so I've been following this site.

Next, are you the one who wants to AV your HOA meetings and distribute the results to the general public, the press, or whomever? Or are you just interested in folks' opinions?

Carol,

I responded to the 2007 post because Glen quoted it in his post earlier today.

Personally, I have no desire to tape my association meetings nor do I care to view a tape of someone else's meeting (unless they are behaving badly). The OP (a different Larry from AZ) asked a question about HOA law in AZ and I responded to him. I then also responded to several others who expressed very, very wrong views and needed my guidance and my wisdom to put them the path to righteousness.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BruceF1 on 08/08/2012 2:13 PM
Larry,

Do whatever you want at your own risk. You can still be sued by the subjects shown in your video for exhibiting it publicly without their permission or compensation.

"Your Honor, the Defendant defamed me by lawfully videotaping me at an HOA meeting where I behaved like a jackass."

CindyT4 (Michigan)
Posts: 27

Posted:

My only experience is that our Board had recorded their sessions and we had to get a legal supoena to get a copy of the tape. We were able to do this because we were in a lawsuit with the Board over the Board overstepping it's authority in changing our Bylaws without proper procedure. That said, and this is only a personal opinion, it does nothing to the public perception of your community and/or property to 'air' your dirty laundry. Ultimately it can affect property value. If you have a legal beef with what your Board is doing it is better to approach the Board via co-owner pressure, a recall or, if it is a major violation, the courts.

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

Larry, can't help it; I'm curious about why you copied a post from 2007 from "JosephW," and pepper this person with questions? Do you really expect him to answer? I don't recall

Next, are you the one who wants to AV your HOA meetings and distribute the results to the general public, the press, or whomever? Or are you just interested in folks' opinions?

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 08/08/2012 2:56 PM

"Your Honor, the Defendant defamed me by lawfully videotaping me at an HOA meeting where I behaved like a jackass."

It has nothing to do with behavior or defamation. It has to do with using a person's image in a public performance without permission or paying for it. You want to use my image in a non-news public performance? Pay me for it.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CindyT4 on 08/08/2012 2:59 PM
My only experience is that our Board had recorded their sessions and we had to get a legal supoena to get a copy of the tape. We were able to do this because we were in a lawsuit with the Board over the Board overstepping it's authority in changing our Bylaws without proper procedure. That said, and this is only a personal opinion, it does nothing to the public perception of your community and/or property to 'air' your dirty laundry. Ultimately it can affect property value. If you have a legal beef with what your Board is doing it is better to approach the Board via co-owner pressure, a recall or, if it is a major violation, the courts.

Well said.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 08/08/2012 12:10 PM

It is generally established that you have no expectation of privacy in a public setting but a meeting of an HOA taking place on HOA property is not a public setting.

While it is not as public as a school board meeting, there is no expectation of privacy in an HOA meeting. You cannot, for example, admit in an HOA meeting to killing your spouse and expect that it remain secret. Truly private situations are usually spelled out in the law: conversations with family members, conversations with doctors and lawyers.

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 08/08/2012 12:10 PM

Could it not conversely be argued that since the legislature did not specifically grant the right to publicly disseminate the tape, that no right exists?

Dissemination of media is pretty much controlled by the First Amendment. It's doubtful that the legislature could restrict publication or distribution even if they wanted to.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BruceF1 on 08/08/2012 3:09 PM

You want to use my image in a non-news public performance? Pay me for it.

Problem for you is that it is news. The person taping is protected by the First Amendment to gather the news -- in this case an HOA meeting -- and he is disseminating the news by showing the tape, also covered by First Amendment.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 08/08/2012 3:37 PM

Posted By BruceF1 on 08/08/2012 3:09 PM

You want to use my image in a non-news public performance? Pay me for it.

Well, if you're not a news organization, then . . . you have a 50/50 chance of winning. If you turn it over to a news organization and they use it, you're home free. If you show it on your own, good luck.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

LarryB13,

I should add, at this point, it really doesn't matter what either one of us thinks or believes. All that matters is which one of us hires the best lawyer.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BruceF1 on 08/08/2012 3:42 PM

Posted By LarryB13 on 08/08/2012 3:37 PM

Posted By BruceF1 on 08/08/2012 3:09 PM

You want to use my image in a non-news public performance? Pay me for it.

You don't really have to be a news organization to get protections - bloggers and personal websites have also been protected by the law.

For example, the Association I have dealt with constantly tells the homeowners that they must maintain common areas and that they need money for the common areas. I have video tape of the HOA telling the membership in meetings that there are common areas. I have documentation of them claiming to have common areas. I have a letter from their attorney threatening homeowners with legal action if they didn't pay their fair share to maintain common areas. I also have board meeting minutes released to the courts where the board members admit that there are no common areas. To this day they still claim there are common areas to maintain. If I were to write an article showing how this not-for-profit corporation was lying to close to 1000 homeowners about why they wanted to amend the existing covenants, I would say that this would be a very news worthy.

I suppose a HOA could take someone through court (or threaten someone with legal action) in hopes that they back down because of the costs.

I think the only instances to which they can deny recording and subsequent publication of such recordings are in the situations outlined by the law, such as meetings with an attorney or discussion of pending litigation.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Kevin,

I would suggest you do some research on the public performance of video recordings. Why do you think professionals bother to obtain model releases from the individuals shown in their videos when they intend to show them in public?

Because you haven't gotten into trouble yet doesn't mean it will never happen. We're not talking about written law here. What we are talking about is the right of an individual to be compensated for the use of his/her image in a public performance. Whether it is "news" or not is something a court will decide. No one has a crystal ball to know beforehand how a court will decide. The point is, there is a finite risk. One must decide how great the risk may be and whether or not one is willing to accept that risk.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

Bruce,

Larry's state law is crystal clear and he's protected. An outsider could not do this and newspaper reporters could be asked to leave. Larry is a member of his HOA and can record. Board members threatening a lawsuit are ignorant to the point of silliness. If they want privacy, they should resign from the board, call a bridge card game and gossip behind closed doors where the camera isn't welcome.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BruceF1 on 08/08/2012 5:27 PM
Kevin,

I would suggest you do some research on the public performance of video recordings. Why do you think professionals bother to obtain model releases from the individuals shown in their videos when they intend to show them in public?

Because you haven't gotten into trouble yet doesn't mean it will never happen. We're not talking about written law here. What we are talking about is the right of an individual to be compensated for the use of his/her image in a public performance. Whether it is "news" or not is something a court will decide. No one has a crystal ball to know beforehand how a court will decide. The point is, there is a finite risk. One must decide how great the risk may be and whether or not one is willing to accept that risk.

There is a vast difference between a professional obtaining a model release and the filming of ameeting and sharing it online, on television, or person to person. What is being filmed is not a "public performance" and is not being profited off of.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinK7 on 08/08/2012 8:06 PM

You think so, huh? Like I said, do some research.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinK7 on 08/08/2012 8:06 PM

There is a vast difference between a professional obtaining a model release and the filming of ameeting and sharing it online, on television, or person to person. What is being filmed is not a "public performance" and is not being profited off of.

Again, the issue would boil down to:

Is a General Membership or Board meeting considered public (where there is no expectation of privacy) or private (where there is an expectation of privacy)?

An argument can be made either way (just read this and other threads in the forum).

Since the question is a legal question - it would likely need to be resolved by the court system.

Once again it appears that the politicians have only done half their job by passing a law allowing the taping of a meeting but failing to fully describe the meeting as public or private (which would address the issue of publishing the recording).

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

My advice comes from advice I have received from a couple of lawyers. Certainly, if you intend to profit from public showing of your video, your chances of being sued, and losing, are greater. However, the mere fact that you do not profit from the public showing of your video is no assurance that you will never be sued, or that you will win if you are. It all comes down to which person hires the better lawyer (been there, done that; different situation). All I am trying to point out is one should understand there are risks, and the risks are not zero.

The point is, any time you show a video of someone publicly, you run the risk of being sued, for any reason. It doesn't matter how certain you feel you can win. Suing, or being sued, is like bidding at an auction. How much is either side willing (and able) to spend on the lawsuit?

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Bruce:

Since you have consulted with more than one attorney on this issue, you should have no problem citing the statutes and/or cases that would permit a party who is taped attending an HOA meeting to sue and recover damages if the tape is shown publicly.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BruceF1 on 08/09/2012 4:28 AM
My advice comes from advice I have received from a couple of lawyers. Certainly, if you intend to profit from public showing of your video, your chances of being sued, and losing, are greater. However, the mere fact that you do not profit from the public showing of your video is no assurance that you will never be sued, or that you will win if you are. It all comes down to which person hires the better lawyer (been there, done that; different situation). All I am trying to point out is one should understand there are risks, and the risks are not zero.

The point is, any time you show a video of someone publicly, you run the risk of being sued, for any reason. It doesn't matter how certain you feel you can win. Suing, or being sued, is like bidding at an auction. How much is either side willing (and able) to spend on the lawsuit?

I have also consulted with an attorney and they have stated otherwise but laws may be differently inyour state.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Kevin,

True. But even within the same state I've heard it said, "ask seven different lawyers the same question and you will get seven different answers."

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