JoshS8 (Virginia)
Posts: 1
Posts: 1
Posted:
Are invisible fences required to seek architectural approval in your single family living neighborhoods? IF you allow invisible fences do you allw them to post a "Beware of Dog" sign?
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How are Invisible Fences handled in your neighborhood?
Started by JoshS8 • 14 replies • 8869 views
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BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
darn good question! I love it when technology and semantics outpace regulations.
I have no answer. Under a strict reading of the typical law, yes, they would require approval (if fences require approval), because they are a fence. However, I might call them a barrier instead, and skirt that semantic issue. On the other hand, many HOA's have rules about "any alteration to the exterior", and this could be an alteration, although invisible... hmmm. Technically, you are adding a feature and altering the exterior, even though no one can see it.
wow... solid question. I would absolutely have to see what the exact rules are for your HOA. Wording is everything.
I have no answer. Under a strict reading of the typical law, yes, they would require approval (if fences require approval), because they are a fence. However, I might call them a barrier instead, and skirt that semantic issue. On the other hand, many HOA's have rules about "any alteration to the exterior", and this could be an alteration, although invisible... hmmm. Technically, you are adding a feature and altering the exterior, even though no one can see it.
wow... solid question. I would absolutely have to see what the exact rules are for your HOA. Wording is everything.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Reminds me of the person who complained about the classic movie "The Invisible Man." In some scenes the invisible man's presence was made known by the movements of empty clothing while in other scenes he was completely unseen. The complaining party was offended because the only conclusion that could be drawn about those latter scenes was the the invisible man was naked.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
I would think it depends on the wording of the requirements but I would think that if no rule is present, the HOA cannot enforce any requirement but there may be municipal requirements regarding leashes. I would also kindly ask the owner to place a sign on the property if they plan on letting their pet roam loose, and since those "fences" aren't fool proof, there may be other rules you could hold the homeowner to.
LawrenceC1 (Georgia)
Posts: 480
Posts: 480
Posted:
Usually the CC&Rs require approval for "exterior modifications" or something along those lines. If the invisible "fence" makes no change to the exterior appearance of a property, I would think that it falls outside that mandate.
There can be no aesthetic review of something that you can't see.
There can be no aesthetic review of something that you can't see.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Here is the rub. Most HOA's only allow signs of "For Sale.For Rent". An electronic fence often uses a warning sign to give notice it exists. So the sign is in violation. The other issue is the property is COMMON property. Any modifications to common property needs approval.
It depends on how strict your HOA is. We did not allow fences in the front yard so the electronic fence could be an issue with that rule too. Even though they can not bee seen it could confuse those seeing a loose dog in the front yard without a leash/tie out.
I like invisible fences for the most part. Just be aware there still is the right place for them.
It depends on how strict your HOA is. We did not allow fences in the front yard so the electronic fence could be an issue with that rule too. Even though they can not bee seen it could confuse those seeing a loose dog in the front yard without a leash/tie out.
I like invisible fences for the most part. Just be aware there still is the right place for them.
Former HOA President
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
true story, apropo nothing... good friend of mine had two dogs, and installed one of those fences in his front yard, just in case they got out. First dog came out, saw the open neighborhood, wandered over to the little white flags, got shocked, and ran straight back inside. Forever after, you could coax him outside ONLY as far as the path to the front door, but he would not get within 10 feet of the property line and those flags.
Second dog came running out of the house, tore right across the yard, hit that fence line, got shocked, and flipped himself over like a pancake, landing in the street, just from sheer momentum. Realized the pain was gone, (since he was more than two foot from the white flags), and enjoyed himself running around the street till we corralled him. Brought him back, reset the fence, and he walked up to the fence, got zapped, and ran back to the house. Then, he bolted out of the house, tore right across the yard, and jumped... took the shock, but he didn't care, his leap carried him over to freedom. Picked himself up, shook off the shock, and ran around the street. Forever after, that dog knew that if he wanted out, he just had to run hard and pay a quick price, and he could be free. My friend never could let him out front or open the door, cause that dog knew how to beat the system.
Second dog came running out of the house, tore right across the yard, hit that fence line, got shocked, and flipped himself over like a pancake, landing in the street, just from sheer momentum. Realized the pain was gone, (since he was more than two foot from the white flags), and enjoyed himself running around the street till we corralled him. Brought him back, reset the fence, and he walked up to the fence, got zapped, and ran back to the house. Then, he bolted out of the house, tore right across the yard, and jumped... took the shock, but he didn't care, his leap carried him over to freedom. Picked himself up, shook off the shock, and ran around the street. Forever after, that dog knew that if he wanted out, he just had to run hard and pay a quick price, and he could be free. My friend never could let him out front or open the door, cause that dog knew how to beat the system.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Mel
The OP asked about standalone homes on deeded property. Generally one has more leeway in this style of living then others.
My present and last HOA's were such. Private homes on deeded lots.
My answer would be as the fence is invisible, then no association permission is needed but several interesting questions were asked/mentioned.
I know some dogs will charge/run through invisible fences if chasing/going after something that "interests them" so I do not consider invisible fences to be as secure as real fences.
Some signs like this property protected by so and so signs, for sale signs. etc are allowed but are Beware Of Dogs Signs the same?
I think this might be an area that the HOA should refer to local laws concerning pets on leash laws, electronic fence laws, etc. rather then approve/disapprove such themselves. Even then, remember that association rules can be tougher then local laws.
The more I type, the more I would be against invisible fencing for safety reasons.
The OP asked about standalone homes on deeded property. Generally one has more leeway in this style of living then others.
My present and last HOA's were such. Private homes on deeded lots.
My answer would be as the fence is invisible, then no association permission is needed but several interesting questions were asked/mentioned.
I know some dogs will charge/run through invisible fences if chasing/going after something that "interests them" so I do not consider invisible fences to be as secure as real fences.
Some signs like this property protected by so and so signs, for sale signs. etc are allowed but are Beware Of Dogs Signs the same?
I think this might be an area that the HOA should refer to local laws concerning pets on leash laws, electronic fence laws, etc. rather then approve/disapprove such themselves. Even then, remember that association rules can be tougher then local laws.
The more I type, the more I would be against invisible fencing for safety reasons.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posts: 796
Posted:
I'm trying to wrap my head around there being ANY reason that an HOA would concern itself with a wireless pet containment system.
In no way is it a fence. It's merely a radio transmitter inside the house and a buried wire that can't be seen.
Would the same question be asked if someone were to choose a wireless containment system? How would the HOA know which type was installed?
In no way is it a fence. It's merely a radio transmitter inside the house and a buried wire that can't be seen.
Would the same question be asked if someone were to choose a wireless containment system? How would the HOA know which type was installed?
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posts: 796
Posted:
Why is there no edit button here? Omit "wireless" from the first line and make it a "radio-frequency based pet containment system" (got ahead of myself)
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Dave
The issue is not the invisible fence itself, but pet regulations (licensing, breeds, amounts, etc.) that are well within an association's right to be more strict about then local rules/regulations.
An example. All pets outside ones residence (home/unit, etc.) must be on a leash. This includes ones dog, kitty cat, hamster, lizard, fish, etc. is not an unreasonable regulation.
Some people (not me) would prefer to live in an association that bans all outside ones residences animals, leash or no leash. That is their right and if understood/agreed to going in, then not an issue. That is until until someone says well my outside animal is my so and so. Then the fun begins. Like well my 12 foot python snake keeps me in touch with reality and stops my anxiety attacks....so you must allow my snke in your association as I am handicapped. Yea..yea..I agree you are handicapped...mentally...LOL.
The issue is not the invisible fence itself, but pet regulations (licensing, breeds, amounts, etc.) that are well within an association's right to be more strict about then local rules/regulations.
An example. All pets outside ones residence (home/unit, etc.) must be on a leash. This includes ones dog, kitty cat, hamster, lizard, fish, etc. is not an unreasonable regulation.
Some people (not me) would prefer to live in an association that bans all outside ones residences animals, leash or no leash. That is their right and if understood/agreed to going in, then not an issue. That is until until someone says well my outside animal is my so and so. Then the fun begins. Like well my 12 foot python snake keeps me in touch with reality and stops my anxiety attacks....so you must allow my snke in your association as I am handicapped. Yea..yea..I agree you are handicapped...mentally...LOL.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
We have no policies for invisible fences. Since they are underground and out of sight, I doubt we would create one. Our sign policies are:
SIGNS, CONSTRUCTION:
If the owner wishes, one (1) sign, no larger than 3 feet by 2 feet, may be displayed in the front of a residence advertising a contractor working within or on the residence. This sign may be displayed beginning the day work actually begins and must be removed within seven (7) days after work has been completed or stopped.
SIGNS, POLITICAL:
Signs supporting or opposing any candidate, party or issue are prohibited on the common area.
SIGNS, REAL ESTATE:
Only one sign advertising a property for sale or rent may be displayed on a lot. Such signs must meet applicable County regulations with respect to size, content and removal. Signs obtained from a licensed Real Estate agent are considered to meet these requirements.
Only one Open House sign may be placed on common areas.
SIGNS, SECURITY
Security signs, each not exceeding a total of sixty-four (64) square inches may be posted on the property. One exterior sign may be posted forward of the front plane of the home. The approved location shall be at the front door or in shrubbery within six (6) feet of the front door. A second sign may be posted in the rear yard. Small decals provided by the company may be placed in the corner of windows.
SIGNS, WARNING:
At the owners discretion, or if required by law, an owner may display an appropriate warning sign (example: Beware of Dog) on the property. One sign may be posted on the gate or fence in the rear of the property and one sign may be posted on the front door of the property.
SIGNS, CONSTRUCTION:
If the owner wishes, one (1) sign, no larger than 3 feet by 2 feet, may be displayed in the front of a residence advertising a contractor working within or on the residence. This sign may be displayed beginning the day work actually begins and must be removed within seven (7) days after work has been completed or stopped.
SIGNS, POLITICAL:
Signs supporting or opposing any candidate, party or issue are prohibited on the common area.
SIGNS, REAL ESTATE:
Only one sign advertising a property for sale or rent may be displayed on a lot. Such signs must meet applicable County regulations with respect to size, content and removal. Signs obtained from a licensed Real Estate agent are considered to meet these requirements.
Only one Open House sign may be placed on common areas.
SIGNS, SECURITY
Security signs, each not exceeding a total of sixty-four (64) square inches may be posted on the property. One exterior sign may be posted forward of the front plane of the home. The approved location shall be at the front door or in shrubbery within six (6) feet of the front door. A second sign may be posted in the rear yard. Small decals provided by the company may be placed in the corner of windows.
SIGNS, WARNING:
At the owners discretion, or if required by law, an owner may display an appropriate warning sign (example: Beware of Dog) on the property. One sign may be posted on the gate or fence in the rear of the property and one sign may be posted on the front door of the property.
NancyG3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 342
Posts: 342
Posted:
Our Covenants do not address this. There are a few homeowners that have installed them. I don't know if they were approved by the Board. There is a Town leash law that helps. However, we have a good reason not to have invisible fences, alligators in our ponds so homeowners are very careful. I guess our community is lucky we do not have dogs running loose.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posts: 796
Posted:
John, You're correct that this should be more of a pet/leash issue than a fence issue. The OP's question was specifically about invisible fences though. Whether I have a radio-based containment system, or simply a well-trained dog, the difference between them is transparent to the HOA. So the question of an "invisible fence" draws the counter question of why it's relevant in the first place. Is it an unauthorized alteration issue (as silly as having an issue with the number of sprinkler heads one has buried in their yard) or is a pet containment issue?
BjS (Florida)
Posts: 16
Posts: 16
Posted:
Check your local animal ordinance. You may have local gov't restrictions, unfortunately installers ignore and HOA might not know. In reality, as most docs were written without knowing future technology, I don't think they can get involved until CCRs are amended. BUT I do believe the association has an obligation to let the homeowners know if the local gov't has restrictions.
This is from our local county animal ordinance: "It shall be unlawful for an owner to tie, chain, tether or confine by electronic/radio device a dog on the owner's property within five (5) feet of public property, public access, easements, common grounds or the property of another without the consent of the owner of such property."
We are HOA single homes with deeded land surrounded by HOA grounds and private golf club grounds, and private neighbors on either side. So depending on location there may be as many "neighbors." Currently my president doesn't care and, if asked, just tells a homeowner, do it.
This is from our local county animal ordinance: "It shall be unlawful for an owner to tie, chain, tether or confine by electronic/radio device a dog on the owner's property within five (5) feet of public property, public access, easements, common grounds or the property of another without the consent of the owner of such property."
We are HOA single homes with deeded land surrounded by HOA grounds and private golf club grounds, and private neighbors on either side. So depending on location there may be as many "neighbors." Currently my president doesn't care and, if asked, just tells a homeowner, do it.
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