NancyB11 (Washington)
Posts: 11
Posts: 11
Posted:
I am in WA state and want to know if employee wages is confidential info to members?
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Started by NancyB11 • 19 replies • 1722 views
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GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Do you mean confidential to homeowners or from homeowners? Either way, in my non-legal interpretation of RCW 64.38.045 homeowners are entitled to view that information. (emphasis added)
RCW 64.38.045
Financial and other records — Property of association — Copies — Examination — Annual financial statement — Accounts.
(2) All records of the association, including the names and addresses of owners and other occupants of the lots, shall be available for examination by all owners, holders of mortgages on the lots, and their respective authorized agents on reasonable advance notice during normal working hours at the offices of the association or its managing agent. The association shall not release the unlisted telephone number of any owner. The association may impose and collect a reasonable charge for copies and any reasonable costs incurred by the association in providing access to records.
To see the entire section and to read all of the WA HOA statutes go to: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.38
RCW 64.38.045
Financial and other records — Property of association — Copies — Examination — Annual financial statement — Accounts.
(2) All records of the association, including the names and addresses of owners and other occupants of the lots, shall be available for examination by all owners, holders of mortgages on the lots, and their respective authorized agents on reasonable advance notice during normal working hours at the offices of the association or its managing agent. The association shall not release the unlisted telephone number of any owner. The association may impose and collect a reasonable charge for copies and any reasonable costs incurred by the association in providing access to records.
To see the entire section and to read all of the WA HOA statutes go to: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.38
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
NancyB11 (Washington)
Posts: 11
Posts: 11
Posted:
Thanks Glenl for the info, however I found that RCW. It didn't really answer my question. I will try to explain it better.
Several Homeowner/Members have asked for detailed information on how much our employees are being paid, to include vacation pay and health insurance.
The current BOD has said it is personal information and that members have no right to know.
I have been unable to find any info in the RCW's or anywhere else for that matter that covers wages.
I feel a member has the right to know what our employees are being paid.
Several Homeowner/Members have asked for detailed information on how much our employees are being paid, to include vacation pay and health insurance.
The current BOD has said it is personal information and that members have no right to know.
I have been unable to find any info in the RCW's or anywhere else for that matter that covers wages.
I feel a member has the right to know what our employees are being paid.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Nancy you will also notice that there is nothing in RCW that makes the information privileged but it does specify that all records shall be available. Now as I said I'm not an attorney but payroll is a type of record. At the very least the Board has to make the aggregate totals available.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446
Posts: 446
Posted:
NancyB,
Just to clarify - are you asking about the wages of employees that are directly employed by the Association?
Just to clarify - are you asking about the wages of employees that are directly employed by the Association?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Nancy
To me salaries, benefits, etc. are private information between the BOD and the employee and can only be discussed in BOD Executive Session.
What the members are entitled to is a budget report where if one looks hard, things might well be revealed.
While I say one cannot know what say Tom, Dick, and Harry make in salary, benefits, etc., one can usually deduce via the budget that Tom, Dick, and Harry are collectively (Budget Line Item maybe) costing us say $120,000.00 per year.
This will not tell you there hourly wages, etc. it does allow one to evaluate if they think the association is getting their moneys worth from Tom, Dick, and Harry. If ones answer is no, then this can be raised by simply asking questions about return on the dollar for this budget item. Thus the disussion begins.
Many will lump many things under one expense category like Management Expenses to "hide" things. Sometimes the discussion has to be wanting a more detailed budget like further break down this category.
There is more then one way to skin a cat.
Hope this helps.
To me salaries, benefits, etc. are private information between the BOD and the employee and can only be discussed in BOD Executive Session.
What the members are entitled to is a budget report where if one looks hard, things might well be revealed.
While I say one cannot know what say Tom, Dick, and Harry make in salary, benefits, etc., one can usually deduce via the budget that Tom, Dick, and Harry are collectively (Budget Line Item maybe) costing us say $120,000.00 per year.
This will not tell you there hourly wages, etc. it does allow one to evaluate if they think the association is getting their moneys worth from Tom, Dick, and Harry. If ones answer is no, then this can be raised by simply asking questions about return on the dollar for this budget item. Thus the disussion begins.
Many will lump many things under one expense category like Management Expenses to "hide" things. Sometimes the discussion has to be wanting a more detailed budget like further break down this category.
There is more then one way to skin a cat.
Hope this helps.
NancyB11 (Washington)
Posts: 11
Posts: 11
Posted:
The BOD gives a monthly financial report as well as the annual report but everything is clumped together, so as to hide what they are really being paid.
It should at least be itemized. The way it reads is Office wages, other and misc. Our water budget reads, wages, other & misc. There is no breakdown, so the way members read it is that the total of 4 employees are making $196,000 a year.
It is very misleading. There is no way with the way this information is given that it can be figured out.
There is also a seperate heading for office expenses, so what the heck is other & misc? We don't even get an explaination for that!
Well thanks for listening to me ramble on. I am just trying to get some answers to some very legitimate questions.
It should at least be itemized. The way it reads is Office wages, other and misc. Our water budget reads, wages, other & misc. There is no breakdown, so the way members read it is that the total of 4 employees are making $196,000 a year.
It is very misleading. There is no way with the way this information is given that it can be figured out.
There is also a seperate heading for office expenses, so what the heck is other & misc? We don't even get an explaination for that!
Well thanks for listening to me ramble on. I am just trying to get some answers to some very legitimate questions.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
way #3 to skin the cat.
audit the financial and tax records of the association. It may be broken down to a better line item there, and or, there may be copies of tax forms, tax payment statements, etc. there for each employee.
audit the financial and tax records of the association. It may be broken down to a better line item there, and or, there may be copies of tax forms, tax payment statements, etc. there for each employee.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Nancy,
By law in Arizona, employee salary and other employee information is not required to be disclosed to the members. I think this is a bad idea as it opens the door to a lawful way to conceal fraud.
The requirement in Washington state that "all records of the association" are open to inspection is far better. I can think of no good reason for withholding employee salary information from the members and, as others have pointed out, employee salaries are a part of the records.
By law in Arizona, employee salary and other employee information is not required to be disclosed to the members. I think this is a bad idea as it opens the door to a lawful way to conceal fraud.
The requirement in Washington state that "all records of the association" are open to inspection is far better. I can think of no good reason for withholding employee salary information from the members and, as others have pointed out, employee salaries are a part of the records.
EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446
Posts: 446
Posted:
NancyB11,
You wrote that “The BOD gives a monthly financial report as well as the annual report”.
Who prepares those reports? The Board Treasurer, or one of your “paid” employees?
You wrote that “The BOD gives a monthly financial report as well as the annual report”.
Who prepares those reports? The Board Treasurer, or one of your “paid” employees?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NancyB11 on 07/26/2012 9:11 AM
The BOD gives a monthly financial report as well as the annual report but everything is clumped together, so as to hide what they are really being paid.
It should at least be itemized. The way it reads is Office wages, other and misc. Our water budget reads, wages, other & misc. There is no breakdown, so the way members read it is that the total of 4 employees are making $196,000 a year.
It is very misleading. There is no way with the way this information is given that it can be figured out.
There is also a seperate heading for office expenses, so what the heck is other & misc? We don't even get an explaination for that!
Well thanks for listening to me ramble on. I am just trying to get some answers to some very legitimate questions.
The BOD gives a monthly financial report as well as the annual report but everything is clumped together, so as to hide what they are really being paid.
It should at least be itemized. The way it reads is Office wages, other and misc. Our water budget reads, wages, other & misc. There is no breakdown, so the way members read it is that the total of 4 employees are making $196,000 a year.
It is very misleading. There is no way with the way this information is given that it can be figured out.
There is also a seperate heading for office expenses, so what the heck is other & misc? We don't even get an explaination for that!
Well thanks for listening to me ramble on. I am just trying to get some answers to some very legitimate questions.
If one assumes 4 employees, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year that is 8,320 hours per year so $196,000.00 divided by 8,320 means $23.55 per hour for wages, benefits, taxes, FICA, etc. and one can take about 1/3rd off for all that overhead stuff so figure average wage is $16.00 per hour or $33,200.00 per year salary.
So let us say one of the 4 in charge so maybe making $44K a year thus the others at about $29K per year or about $14 per hour each.
This is playing loose with numbers....but....
Nancy. If concerned then I advise you to run for the BOD and become privy to more and in a position to bring about change.
Hope this helps.
NancyB11 (Washington)
Posts: 11
Posts: 11
Posted:
The one that prepares the report is the paid employee.
I was elected for the Board and served as Covenant Director from 2005 - 2008.
I am running again this year because of the way this place has been run for the last 4 years. Covenants are not being inforced, salaries have gotten way out of line, and the current board is letting the paid Office secretary dictate to the board what to do. Kinda like the tail wagging the dog.
While I was on the board she was hired (I voted against it) at $18 an hour. It has been leaked that she is up to $29 an hour plus full benefit's. That's one of the reasons the members want to know. If she is being paid that, it makes you wonder what the part time office person is being paid as well as the 2 maintance employees.
Well, when I am elected back on the board August 12, at least I will know for sure, but are the members still going to be left in the dark? That's why I'm trying to find out where & if it states that employee info is confidential.
I was elected for the Board and served as Covenant Director from 2005 - 2008.
I am running again this year because of the way this place has been run for the last 4 years. Covenants are not being inforced, salaries have gotten way out of line, and the current board is letting the paid Office secretary dictate to the board what to do. Kinda like the tail wagging the dog.
While I was on the board she was hired (I voted against it) at $18 an hour. It has been leaked that she is up to $29 an hour plus full benefit's. That's one of the reasons the members want to know. If she is being paid that, it makes you wonder what the part time office person is being paid as well as the 2 maintance employees.
Well, when I am elected back on the board August 12, at least I will know for sure, but are the members still going to be left in the dark? That's why I'm trying to find out where & if it states that employee info is confidential.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Nancy
Curious why you voted against hiring her for $18.00 per hour ($37,440.00 per year).
Thanks
Curious why you voted against hiring her for $18.00 per hour ($37,440.00 per year).
Thanks
NancyB11 (Washington)
Posts: 11
Posts: 11
Posted:
John, I voted aganist hireing her,
1. The other applications submitted were not even considered.
2. I felt it was a conflict of interest because the Vice Pres was her husband.
Another thing, the secretary she replaced (who resigned due to health), had been there for 6 years and worked her way up to $18 an hour.
1. The other applications submitted were not even considered.
2. I felt it was a conflict of interest because the Vice Pres was her husband.
Another thing, the secretary she replaced (who resigned due to health), had been there for 6 years and worked her way up to $18 an hour.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Nancy
#1 and 2 are valid reasons I might would have voted against her for especially the potential conflict of interest with the husband on the BOD.
#1 and 2 are valid reasons I might would have voted against her for especially the potential conflict of interest with the husband on the BOD.
NancyB11 (Washington)
Posts: 11
Posts: 11
Posted:
Just wanted to keep you posted.
The paid employee(office Secretary)under the direction of the BOD contacted our attorney about releasing information regarding employees wages being given to the members.
His answer was that "wages being paid are considered financials and must be disclosed to the members if the request was made in writing."
This morning she turned in her resignation. Makes me wonder why go to that extreme.
The paid employee(office Secretary)under the direction of the BOD contacted our attorney about releasing information regarding employees wages being given to the members.
His answer was that "wages being paid are considered financials and must be disclosed to the members if the request was made in writing."
This morning she turned in her resignation. Makes me wonder why go to that extreme.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NancyB11 on 07/27/2012 9:22 AM
The paid employee(office Secretary)under the direction of the BOD contacted our attorney about releasing information regarding employees wages being given to the members.
His answer was that "wages being paid are considered financials and must be disclosed to the members if the request was made in writing."
This morning she turned in her resignation. Makes me wonder why go to that extreme.
The paid employee(office Secretary)under the direction of the BOD contacted our attorney about releasing information regarding employees wages being given to the members.
His answer was that "wages being paid are considered financials and must be disclosed to the members if the request was made in writing."
This morning she turned in her resignation. Makes me wonder why go to that extreme.
I would take a very, very close look at all association money that was paid to her and any checks she wrote.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
This may not apply here but I will share this story anyway for its amusement value.
A person that I know of had a small corporation that owned several bars. The owner noticed that the payroll at one of the bars had swelled while income remained steady. Suspecting that the manager of that bar had created phantom employees, on the next payday the owner informed the employees that due to a mix up they would have to pick up their paychecks from the main office that day instead of having the checks delivered to them at the bar. At the end of the day, there were five unclaimed paychecks at the main office and the bar manager resigned.
When a person resigns suddenly after being put under scrutiny I cannot help but suspect the worst.
A person that I know of had a small corporation that owned several bars. The owner noticed that the payroll at one of the bars had swelled while income remained steady. Suspecting that the manager of that bar had created phantom employees, on the next payday the owner informed the employees that due to a mix up they would have to pick up their paychecks from the main office that day instead of having the checks delivered to them at the bar. At the end of the day, there were five unclaimed paychecks at the main office and the bar manager resigned.
When a person resigns suddenly after being put under scrutiny I cannot help but suspect the worst.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NancyB11 on 07/27/2012 9:22 AM
Just wanted to keep you posted.
The paid employee(office Secretary)under the direction of the BOD contacted our attorney about releasing information regarding employees wages being given to the members.
His answer was that "wages being paid are considered financials and must be disclosed to the members if the request was made in writing."
This morning she turned in her resignation. Makes me wonder why go to that extreme.
Just wanted to keep you posted.
The paid employee(office Secretary)under the direction of the BOD contacted our attorney about releasing information regarding employees wages being given to the members.
His answer was that "wages being paid are considered financials and must be disclosed to the members if the request was made in writing."
This morning she turned in her resignation. Makes me wonder why go to that extreme.
That sounds rather fishy. Why resign unless you are afraid of what is there? If there is no problem and you believe that what you perform is what the HOA is paying for, then why not be held accountable?
I would research more into this matter although I question as to whether or not there is any action that can be taken.
NancyB11 (Washington)
Posts: 11
Posts: 11
Posted:
Fishy is right Kevink, and trust me every rock is going to be turned over.
To everyone here remember if you feel something is not right speak up, you may be surprised what you may find out.
I will keep you posted as to what comes of this.
Sure glad I found this forum, I have learned a great deal from other posters questions & comments.
To everyone here remember if you feel something is not right speak up, you may be surprised what you may find out.
I will keep you posted as to what comes of this.
Sure glad I found this forum, I have learned a great deal from other posters questions & comments.
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