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LoriS7 (Minnesota)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Hello.
I am a new vice president of my buildings board. My building is very small, and no one wants to be on the board, so getting a seat was easy. I took a seat on the board almost 2 years ago, and had no experience or knowledge about it at all. I still know very little about what I am doing.

Things are not good in our building. We have a very archaic air conditioning system that uses water to cool each unit, which has been in place since it was built in the 1950s.. therefore, pipes run throughout the building carrying water to all units from a chiller on the roof.
We've had very bad problems with condensation on the pipes which has led to water leaking through ceilings and in walls. So much so that the cement ceilings are dripping and we need to set pans out to catch the water.
This problem has never been addressed seriously by the HOA. Within the last 2 years, the board has only wrapped a couple of pipes in some of the units, which did not help at all. We have been going round and round about it but no real solution has ever been pursued. It's a huge problem that will cost a major amount of money to fix, so I think that's why the board has been so lazy in dealing with it. They think about it for a bit, then forget about it until the next summer when it's impossible to ignore. They have let it go this way for nearly 20 years.
Recently I had my bedroom wall completely opened up to look at the damage, in an area where the majority of the water has been. Needless to say, it's mold city in there. It's very scary that we've been living with this as long as we have. The HVAC company advised that we shut down the AC permanently RIGHT NOW and begin to get the mold out of my wall. But that means the whole building will be without ANY AC for the rest of this horrible summer and we still have no new system decided upon.
We know that there is no other solution to this problem than getting the water out of the walls for good - meaning a complete changeover in AC system. We're looking at an 8-10K assessment for each unit here.
Not only that, but our association dues are 2X what all other buildings around here are. We pay over $400 per month in dues for this place, and there are NO amenities. Now we're supposed to pay a big assessment on top of that?
My husband and I and our daughter moved into this place a few years ago, after the initial collapse of the market, but before it truly tanked to where it is now. We were first time home buyers and thought we got a "good deal" because we bought it for $50k less than what it listed for. We had NO idea about this AC problem at all until the following summer after we bought it. We also recently found out that it is right next to a petroleum brownfield.
Of course since then we've seen a huge drop in the value because the market has continued to bottom out. Almost 1/3 of the value of what we paid for it is gone, and that's from the city's valuation. I'm fairly certain that at 109K it was overvalued by the city , since a similar unit down the hall sold last year for 60K (we paid 147K for ours)
We have no equity, and I think it's safe to say that we are underwater. We're only in for escalating association dues down the road, and with the dues already being so high, it's going to make our unit just that much more undesirable for a buyer. I can't imagine we'd be able to sell anytime within the next few years, even if the market recovered somewhat and we could fix the place up a little, because there is planned construction of a 3 story retail/condo building next door starting either next year or in 2014, and we're looking at 1-2 years of living next door to a construction site when that happens. Also, the construction site is the petroleum brownfield so we'll have to live next to toxic waste removal for a little while.
All in all, this place is NOT good for our health. Mental as well as physical.
I am seriously considering calling the board of health to see if they can come out and assess the place for mold. Maybe they would end up condemning it.

This is so not what we had in mind when we bought this place. We planned to hang on to this place in hopes that someday we could rent it out, but we don't know if we should ever spend the money that it would take to fix it up enough to attract a renter. As it is now, someone could buy an actual home for less than they would have to pay in rent here to cover our mortgage payment and assc. dues. I used to think that holding on to it would be the best thing in the long run, but I'm not so sure anymore.

I guess I am wondering if anyone here could give an idea of what course we should try and take in this very bad situation. Basically, WWYD?

Any thoughts would be very greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Where does your HOA money go? You stated no amenities so what is this HOA funding? Seems that it is time to get some quotes on replacing the system and NOT guessing. Atleast 3 bids should be secured to review in deciding what to do. Your right ALL the member will have to have a special assessment to pay for this expense. The upside is that paying 5K a piece is MUCh cheaper than paying the whole cost of the entire system on one's own.

I would suggest taking a poll and getting ready to do a special assessment. Start looking into those steps as you also look for the proper bids/costs. You also have to understand that Mold is NOT all that bad. It may just look disgusting more than being a health haazard. Not all mold is "toxic". Most of it can be treated by a bleach solution and sprayed onto the walls. Worst case is removing the drywall with special suits etc. So don't assume mold is something to call and condemn a building over. It's like throwing out the baby because the water got dirty...

What type of accounts do you have set up for your HOA? Seems there should have been a fund for such type repairs or atleast set one up to save up for next year. I had to replace my entire A/C system plus vents in my home recently. I'd suggest doing some research about options out there with new systems. Our utilities department offers a program for installing a new system. You can get a coupon for $500 for installing new system or you can put the cost of replacement on your Utility bill. That option makes it easier for installment plans for a new system. An option that may work for you all to fit into your budget.

Former HOA President
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
This is a really bad situation, one of the worst I have ever heard of.

My advice:

Find another home you can buy and secure a mortgage on it while your cedit is still good. Move into the new place, then mail the keys for your condo unit to the lender. Kiss the condo goodbye forever and kiss your credit goodbye for a few years.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 07/23/2012 9:02 PM
Where does your HOA money go? You stated no amenities so what is this HOA funding?

Just guessing but how about electricity, water, trash, sewer, plowing the parking lot in winter, heating, air conditioning, property taxes, and landscaping? It does not take long to get to over $400 per month.
NancyG3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 342
Posted:
Hi Lori: How many units are in the building? I would suggest to the Board to call in an expert to inspect the building and make suggestions on how to correct this problem and the cost. There may be other ways to get rid of the mold without replacing the A/C. Then call in A/C companies for their opinions. It was suggested from someone else contact the electric company and check to see if they will help. What you need to know is exactly what it will cost. (No guess work.) You could suggest to the Board that you would take on the job of getting all the estimates, etc. From what you say it appears the Board does not want to get involved and keep pushing it back. You may want to find out exactly what the Assn is liable for. When I owned a Condo the Assn was only responsible for the building. From the walls in I was responsible. Difference was my A/C was in my unit. This is going to involve a lot of leg work and involvement to secure all information to solve this buildings problem. Once all information gotten it needs to be taken to all the owners and discussed. Is there any money in a reserve?
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
sounds as if you have poorly insulated, or 'decaying' insulation chilled water piping

a properly installed and insulated chilled water ac system was (and remains) state of the art

you need:

a) an inspection of the distribution (supply and return) piping for structural integrity

if sound

b) a set of engineers specifications to PROPERLY insulate said piping ... insulation must be VAPOR TIGHT (applied by SPECIALISTS) not merely 'rubber coated with 'tubing'

c) competitive bids from 3+ QUALIFIED contractors (licensed, insured, PERFORMANCE BONDED)

if piping itself is 'sound' i 'guestimate' $1000-1500 per unit for insulation + 'touch up repairs'

see:

http://hpac.com/plumbing-piping-pumping/investigation-failure-chilled-water-0311/

http://www.itwinsulation.com/trymer/library/Data_Sheets/ITW_TRYMER_Chilled_Water_Applic_Updated.pdf

http://www.ntlinsulation.com/images/chilledwater.pdf

The design and
specification of
insulation on a chilled
water distribution
network might be
considered routine
by some engineers
and designers.
Yet, a survey by
HPAC Engineering
magazine revealed
that almost one out
of 10 of respondents
had been involved
with a failed chilled
water insulation
project within the
previous 12 months.


{b]CAVEAT EMPTOR
LoriS7 (Minnesota)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Thanks for the replies, everyone.

I found out a couple of years ago that the reason the fees are so high is because for years before we moved in, there was very little money in the reserve. From what I understand, at some point not too long before we bought in, the board started aggressively funding the reserve by jacking up the dues. It went up $100 per month within the first year we lived here.

It's an old 1950s apartment building turned condo in the 80s. It's nothing special. When I say no amenities, I mean it is completely bare bones. Not even a common room. Not even a place to store a bicycle in the winter. I have to keep my bike and our jogging stroller at my mother's house when not in use.

The laundry machines are leased and are coin op - $3 per load to wash and dry.
We pay our own electric bills (aside from the AC because that's all from the one chiller on the roof which is hooked up to the common area electric)
We pay our own property taxes

So for $400 we get;

heat
cooking gas
trash
water
snow removal from our parking lot
vacuuming of the halls and basic common area maintenance like light bulb changes or emptying the trash in the laundry room (once every month or every other month I believe)

We are going to replace our old chiller system and have mold remediation done. It's going to be extremely expensive and there will be an assesment of several thousand dollars for each unit very likely.
On top of that, I've got a pretty strong hunch that there will be the suggestion to raise dues again after this all takes place. At that point I just can't see holding on to this place. No one is going to pay a huge monthly due like that when there are a huge number of condos in this area already in foreclosure, dirt cheap, MUCH NICER, and with lower dues and better amenities.

I have definitely learned my lesson the hard way with this place.

LoriS7 (Minnesota)
Posts: 4
Posted:
There's no way to edit a post here, correct? I couldn't find an edit option..

What I meant to say is that if we tried to sell, I think that among other things, the high dues will drive buyers away. It's very overvalued and it's plainly obvious that it is at first glance.
With almost 100 condos for sale in the immediate area and WELL over half of them in foreclosure, nicely renovated, cable and laundry included in the dues, and priced way below what we paid for this unit, people are just going to pass this one by.

Not to mention that the mold that has been growing for over a decade in our walls is clearly aggravating my allergies. When I leave here for the day, I have no symptoms.

Then there's the issue of a brand new mixed use building planned for the petroleum clean up site next door (about 65 feet from our windows) with underground parking that will probably start construction next spring if we're lucky, and next month if we aren't, making life here even harder.

Ugh, I am very, very depressed.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
So for $400 we get;

heat
cooking gas
trash
water
snow removal from our parking lot
vacuuming of the halls and basic common area maintenance like light bulb changes or emptying the trash in the laundry room (once every month or every other month I believe)

You believe? Being on the Board you should know. The one glaring item you left out of your list is reserves, where do they stand? The replacement of the chiller should be a reserve item and funded from reserves.

You could follow Larry's advice or depending on the properties location, have you thought about getting everyone together and selling the building? Call a meeting and lay out the economics, it will cost everyone X to replace the chiller and do mold remediation or we can all sell the property. Hopefully everyone could break even and you all move on with your lives. Or depending on the actual condition of the building, maybe you could get the city to condemn it.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
The AC needs to be shut down immediately. Doesn't matter if people dont like it. The source of the water needs to stop today. Tell the board if the AC is not shut down immediately, you will pay a visit to the city health/code enforcement officer who will force the issue. Water flows down and its likely affecting the whole building, not just your unit.

Because you share heat, I would guess that is where most of your dues are going.
LoriS7 (Minnesota)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Yes, I am certain that it's affecting the whole building and that there is mold in units other than my own.
3 years ago, the unit below us had wet concrete where the ceiling meets the wall, and they had to use pans to catch the streams of water coming off the walls.
Last year, the same thing started to happen in one of our rooms.
The board at that time literally did nothing about it. That's one of the main reasons I wanted to be on the board. They were going around and around talking about what could be done, but no action was taken. Then, last year, we tried re-wrapping a few pipes to see if that would work. It did not, and when my wall was opened up, I could see where all of the wrapping of that pipe had basically all crumbled off within one year. The management company brought in a vendor that didn't use the right materials, apparently. Plus, only ONE pipe in each unit was wrapped - when I saw inside the wall there were several other pipes that should have been wrapped if the work was going to be considered worthwhile at all. All of the pipes were wet with condensation. I don't know what they were thinking.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Everyday water is rotting the building and everyday it will get more expensive to repair. It needs to be shut down until a solution can be found. Water causes sooo much damage.

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