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florida sunshine law/e-mail

Started by CharlesG5 • 12 replies • 2093 views

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CharlesG5 (Florida)
Posts: 60
Posted:
HOA's are private corporations. Florida Sunshine Law pertains to government agenies. The question is do HOA's have to follow the Sunshine Law. I say no unless we are talking to government agenies.

Also, if at the last board meeting you were given a proposal that will be voted on at the next board meeting, can you exchange ideas/thoughts through e-mail? This way, the proposal will have been discussed and close to approval and will save time at the board meeting.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CharlesG5 on 07/10/2012 2:18 PM
HOA's are private corporations. Florida Sunshine Law pertains to government agenies. The question is do HOA's have to follow the Sunshine Law. I say no unless we are talking to government agenies.

You are correct that the FL sunshine laws do not apply to HOAs.
However, other FL statutes, 718 and 720 to name two, do apply and have similar requirements.

Quote:
Posted By CharlesG5 on 07/10/2012 2:18 PM

Also, if at the last board meeting you were given a proposal that will be voted on at the next board meeting, can you exchange ideas/thoughts through e-mail? This way, the proposal will have been discussed and close to approval and will save time at the board meeting.

Discussions should be saved for the meeting.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CharlesG5 on 07/10/2012 2:18 PM
HOA's are private corporations. Florida Sunshine Law pertains to government agenies. The question is do HOA's have to follow the Sunshine Law. I say no unless we are talking to government agenies.

Also, if at the last board meeting you were given a proposal that will be voted on at the next board meeting, can you exchange ideas/thoughts through e-mail? This way, the proposal will have been discussed and close to approval and will save time at the board meeting.

The reason for government sunshine laws are the basis for the same sunshine laws that govern HOAs. People in the U.S. have the right to know what the legislatures and other governing bodies are doing with their monies and the justification for their decisions.

In general, in this country there is a preference for transparency on issues and actions by governing bodies. Citizens' opinions and differing opinions that spark lively debate are considered positive parts of a democracy like the U.S. and for this reason, having a closed discussion, or pre-approving the decision before a public vote defeats the spirit of the law if it doesn't also break it.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Think your missing the entire point of having meetings and being a board member. A HOA is a quasi government/corporation. The owners are all stockholders in the corporation. Meaning they are to have the same access to the information and decisions the HOA makes or needs to make. The board is just the chosen members voted by the general membership to represent them on a daily basis in the HOA business.

Yes, would it make it much easier to handle things amongst the board and by email. However, a HOA must also operate under full disclosure or sunshine laws amongst it's membership. Corporations do this as well with producing a "Prospectus" to their shareholders every year which does include the bad along with the good. If you ever read one you will see they have included any lawsuits they may be facing or have settled. The shareholders are to be informed of ALL happenings of the corporation they are members of. It is the SAME with a HOA where the owners must stay informed but does not always mean providing the information beyond upon request/or attending meetings.

A HOA budget is difficult item. Many board members struggle with this because they want to keep it secret and under control. They find out quickly that the general membership can insist upon expenditures that the budget can't support. So it is a natural reaction to not want to give out this information. However, the HOA's budget has to be like leaving your checkbook out on the table for the whole family to read. You may find after awhle once the family/members are able to read the checkbook and understand the decision making, they throw more support in the board's direction if they are acting appropriately. That means doing what the majority of OWNERS want done NOT just the board.

It is hard and I understand where your coming from. It's just you need to learn another way of handling the issues. Losing a bit of the tight grip and control may be the answer. Openness pushes the HOA forward and doesn't hold it back.
Former HOA President
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I think it would be naive to believe members of a governing body do not unformally/socially discuss things outside formal meetings, sunshine laws or not.

I think it is also foolish to try and limit outside meeting discussions. If outside meeting discussions/communication was not done, meetings could go on ad nauseam.

I think one has to be realistic about this stuff.

I am not advocating secret meetings, secret votes, etc. but be realistic is how government and business is actually run.

And yes, we are all out to get you.....LOL

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
John is wrong, Charles. A quorum of our Board (of 7) does NOT discuss upcoming agenda items outside of duly noticed meetings, per CA civil code! In Calif., however, discussions and voting re: competing proposals MAY be done in executive session. I don't know if you may do the same in FL. We do, though, discuss & vote on a lot of these proposals at open meetings.

I do think that these restrictions may be hard on small HOAs, & perhaps self-managed HOAs, but I don't know.

The point is, as JM notes, the membership should be able to see and hear the deliberative process. And, no, i promise you that the discussions do not go on "ad nauseam." When decisions are almost made behind Owners' backs, the open meetings become merely a place where decisions are announced. Owners have no idea HOW these decisions were formulated. Eventually, Owners can and do rebel as happened here partly because of secret agreements. "Saving time" is not a good reason to hide the Board's decision-making processes from the membership.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Carol

I quoted no rules, laws, regulations etc. nor did I advocate not following such.

I simply said if anyone thinks there is no "cloak room activity" they are simply being naive. Be it wrong or not it happens.

I am not, nor is the original poster in CA. Our laws can be quite different.

As an example. South Carolina does not have a statute which addresses Homeowner Associations of single family lots. There is a statute which addresses condominiums known as the Horizontal Property Regime Act. References are made in this Act to the to the contents of the Bylaws as to the administration of condo regimes but they are broad and general statements without much detail The subject of "open meetings" is not addressed.

Please keep in mind that Sterling-Davis does not mean squat outside CA. In SC it is entirely legal for members of a BOD to communicate via phone, Email, smoke signals, pillow talk, etc. We can not conduct business nor vote, but we can chat.

Understand that I advocate openness, things on the table, etc. but let us be real about how business "truly" works.

Just wanted to clarify that I am right in SC...maybe not is CA...but I do not live in CA...I live in and follow the laws of SC....just as I followed the laws when I lived in NY, IL, MA, CA, CT, OH and in Ireland and England.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Oops...Sterling-Davis.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I have a mental block on that CA foolishness.....Davis-Stirling
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Hi John 46, I clearly wrote that I was talking only about CA, and that I didn't know about FL so it seems that you didn't read my post thoroughly.

I reiterate with all honesty that a quorum or more of our board does not discuss, etc., agenda items outside of meetings. Our board is highly effective and doesn't find the Davis-Sterling open meeting act burdensome.

Painting ALL boards with the same "cloak room" secrecy brush that you've experienced does not mean that all boards behave that way. Neither I nor the O.P. was talking about SC.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Carol

Not a problem and you are the one that has to deal with CA.....but reality says it happens and not all are invited into the cloakroom....LOL

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Carol

Sorry there is not edit.

You say that a quorum of your BOD does not discuss things outside an open meeting. Well and fine...but...but..you say quorum.

Is this saying that less then a quorum can/does?

Wow....pillow talk but less then a quorum...how many would that be...I would like pics of that.

Other then the fact there is no one on our BOD I would like to "pillow talk" with....quorum or not...well in all honesty...maybe one if I was drunk enough...but we could "do it" in SC...being entirely legal...and a bible belt state on top of that.

Is Davis-Stirling against group pillow...oops again...cloakroom talk?

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
In CA, per the open meeting act, a "meeting" is defined as a quorum of directors. Such meetings of the board must be posted where homeowners can see the notices 4 days prior to an open meeting, which we hold monthly.

This means that 3 directors on our board of 7 could exchange ideas, etc., about agenda items prior to an open meeting. They could possibly agree to vote a certain way. So far as i know, this doesn't happen on our board. I, however, do touch base with one director from time to time about specific agenda items and vice versa. About half the time the two of us disagree.

The point is that 3 on a board of 7 is not a majority, thus the discussions, debate and decisions of the entire board at a noticed meeting are NOT made in secret and merely announced at such meetings.

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