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Glass in the Pool Area

Started by AlexM1 • 37 replies • 5695 views

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AlexM1 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 287
Posted:
At the condo, we have a rule that NO GLASS items in the pool area. It is on a sign in the pool area but not so mentioned in the CC&Rs.

If an individual(s) bring in glass bottles or glass items and are told to remove them, how do we enforce it.. they just say go away and leave us alone.... If the city inspector came in, I suspect he/she would close down the pool. But as individuals attempting to keep glassware out of the pool area, do we call the police or just let it go?No, they will not say what condo unit they are from otherwise one might fine the owner

Actually, we cannot call the police as they would not respond anyway. We cannot find out who the owner is as they would nottell us. We would have to hide someplace untildthe culprit left the pool area and we secretly follow them back to the condo unit in which they reside and then send a letter (fine) to them.We just seem so powerless in stopping a small amount of individuals from bringing glass items into the pool area.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
well, since the rule is a safety rule, and it is plainly posted, you could always just take the glass away from them.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Hi Alex,

Check with your local cops to see if an open container of alcohol at your pool violates any ordinances OR gives a small legal wrinkle to allow officers to "tour" your pool. I preside over a board w/ this challenge of glass bottles. I would not recommend throwing the book at poolside beer drinkers, but deterrence of glass use is important for financial reasons to the HOA.

NancyG1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 119
Posted:
Are you a member of the Board? If not it is your Associaton and your property you have a right to approach this type of person. Tell them they are in violation of your rules and if they won't get rid of the glass, or tell you who the homeowners is they are trespassing and ask them to leave or you will call the police. The choice is theirs, either get rid of the glass or leave or you will call the police and report them for trespassing on private property. Hopefully it will work. Good luck.
NancyG1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 119
Posted:
I believe the police will come if you report someone trespassing.
AlexM1 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 287
Posted:
Taking the glass awaY (as one person did one time) provoked a fist fight.
AlexM1 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 287
Posted:
Yes, a Board member... but..... the police might come(as they did on two different occasions in the past)..... the glass people happened to be renters at the condo complex but the police would NOT give me the unit in which they are living... the idea would be to find out whre they lived and then send a "fine" letter to the owner. It goes back to the fact that we cannot always find out where these people reside unless we secretely follow them. If glass is broken.... and the pool is closed... they(the renters) in most cases could not care less.
NancyG1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 119
Posted:
I would never suggest to anyone to physically take the glass away. Like I posted before, they gave no information if they belong there. Just tell them if they don't tell you who they are or who they are visiting they are trespassing and you will call the police. Don't do it alone get people to go with you. A few good men works better than an individual.
NancyG1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 119
Posted:
Alex - I was typing the same time you were. OK after this information, I don't know how many condos are involved but how about sending out a newsletter or bulletin to all the owners giving them this information. Point out expecially the owners of the rental properties (because you know it is a renter) and the way the renters are abusing their privilage by taking glass to the pool. Advise everyone what a liability risk it is to the Association and the pool could be closed if an inspector came by. Ask for everyone that uses the pool to please help to enforce the no glass rule. There are always jerks and inconsiderent people. Depending on how many rental units you have you could just write them to please tell their renters to abide by the rules or they will be fined. Lots of warnings is all I can suggest. As stated in my last message if you see them again, get more men to help you approach them. If you see these people again with glass tell them since they can not abide by your rules and use plastic containers they are no longer welcome to use the pool and the owner of the condo will be informed. (They don't know you don't know who the owner is). Then the only thing you can do is follow them and find out where they live. Then go after the owner. These are all the ideas I have, maybe someone else will have more.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> but not so mentioned in the CC&Rs.

The CC&Rs would state what the association can do. No doubt there is some wording the effect that the association will maintain the safety and appearance of the common areas, etc. The rule against glass is implemented in order to accomplish this objective.

One option is to attempt to institute a fine or to remove access from offenders. Not easy to do.

USUALLY this sort of rule just reminds people not to do stupid or annoying things. You seem to have owners who don't respond to this.

An interesting idea- start a discussion process to REMOVE the rule, and see if it can bring support for keeping it. That might help persuade, and might induce others to at least remark on it to violators.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
We have such a rule & it's in our Rules & Regs, which is one of or governing documents. We remind residents of it every so often in our monthly newsletter (where we discuss the cost & inconvenience) of draining the pool, etc.), and post it in our elevators a couple of times year for a week or so.

So, I'm agreeing with Nancy's ideas including having a few residents approach the offenders while they use glass containers at the pool.

You with 1-2 others might, Alex, also try a approaching the offenders with plastic glasses and offer to discard the glassware for their "convenience" once the liquids have been transferred.
MichelleC7 (California)
Posts: 108
Posted:
If you are willing to try it, a group effort as mentioned above may just do it. It looks like it's not just one persons's issue

I read somewhere they are renters? If so, every smart phone has a camera. Take a picture. print it out and us it to fine the owner.

or I have this idea.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/319980880/2012_Insulated_Neoprene_Bottle_Cover.html?s=p

I have found these or something similiar are easy to find at local Walmart, Walgreens, I just bought one for my bottled IBC Rootbeer so I can take it to the pool. If the bottle gets smashed, its relatively contained... it may be a great compromise to the stiff heads who insist to drink their beer or whatever from a bottle.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:

If the police can get the glass removed from the pool area, you've succeeded as a board member in protecting the property. Non-board dues payers should exercise the same powers and not confront beer drinkers face-to-face. There's no need. If the police don't offer names and addresses, that's their prerogative but you've protected the pool amenity.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
If I took a glass away, and someone took a swing at me, that would still be fine with me.

then, something simple (an HOA rules infraction of no import) now becomes a police case. Police WILL be called, and the offender WILL BE ARRESTED for assault and battery. In fact, it will turn out I have witnesses (because I would not do this without having someone nearby to observe, or video), and definitely pictures of the bruise, etc..

I would take a punch for that outcome. A permanent mark on their record? gladly.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Your HOA can not erroneously fine members. It has to be a fining schedule in place. Meaning that ALL owners need to be aware and agree to the fines and amounts.

I would put up a sign stating that any glass containers are NOT allowed in the pool area due to safety. If caught the police will be called and further restrictions from using the pool area will be enforced. The HOA should be able to restrict those from using the pool area for various reasons. May want to look into that.

Usually glass bottles indicate alcohol use. Am I right? We have an open container law in our state and city. One can not have an open container in public or in vehicle if pulled over. This may be an area you may have some ground to stand on with the police.

I once had a renter giving alcohol to underaged kids at the pool. They were only 15. A board member saw it and stopped it. I went to the owner and let them know. Plus we went to the grandparent of the kid. This behavior would NOT be tolerated and people would know about it. Pass the word out and there may still be some shame still left in this world...
Former HOA President
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AlexM1 on 07/08/2012 9:03 AM
Yes, a Board member... but..... the police might come(as they did on two different occasions in the past)..... the glass people happened to be renters at the condo complex but the police would NOT give me the unit in which they are living...

They might not tell you directly but I'll be it's in their official report which is a public record, which you can review or copy for a small fee, all you need is the date of the incident.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AlexM1 on 07/08/2012 9:03 AM
Yes, a Board member... but..... the police might come(as they did on two different occasions in the past)..... the glass people happened to be renters at the condo complex but the police would NOT give me the unit in which they are living... the idea would be to find out whre they lived and then send a "fine" letter to the owner. It goes back to the fact that we cannot always find out where these people reside unless we secretely follow them. If glass is broken.... and the pool is closed... they(the renters) in most cases could not care less.

How do they get into the pool area? Is there an electronic lock? Cameras?
AlexM1 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 287
Posted:
They get into the pool area with a key.... a key that was issued in the name of the owner.
AlexM1 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 287
Posted:
Good point... the problem would be that we would have to pay the police for the report(which is a rip off) and have to drive a long distance to do it... but in the long run, it might be worth it.
AlexM1 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 287
Posted:
Unfortunately, the Board, some time ago stated (over my objections) that alcohol could be consumed at the pool so what we see in the form of glass is not only the glasses that they use for the drinks but the bottles(glass) of beer.... and/or the bottles of vodka, etc.
AlexM1 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 287
Posted:
The system that we use(which I do not like) is that if an owner or if a renter abuses the rules, a letter is first sent to the owner (if we know who the owner is) and the second time it happens whether it be from that same renter or a subsequent renter, the owner can be fined and ech time thereafter.
AlexM1 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 287
Posted:
Yes, for that time only..... but many of them being very controversal... wouldckome b ack another time and do it all over again. One of the main goals is to fine the owners.. Keep in mind also that the owners (when they rent) do not apprise the renters of the CC&Rs........We try to get the word out in a type of newsletter but with the renter turnover, it is not always that easy. AND... even if we have to close the poolto get the glass out and pay a lot toget the water changed and the glass out, the renters who are not always here for long periods of time could not care less really but it is the full-timers here who have to suffer.

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
just curious, Alex. How many units in your HOA? Detached homes, or? Do many residences have views of the pool?

I like Glen's idea that someone go review the police report(s). The owner's name really matters a lot.

We also (with a couple of exceptions) call the owners to hearings/levy fines after the 2nd violation. This schedule is in our documents. We (the board) also have the capacity to double fines every time there's a repeat violation. A polite letter goes out after the first violation and solves the problem 90% of the time.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
since the glass is a MAJOR violation of your state's operating requirments ..... CLOSE THE POOL and call L.E. for trespassing of anyone who will not leave

notify the members of EXACTLY what has occurred and that the pool will be closed if ANY users will not comply with state regs

open the pool AT YOUR CONVENIENCE and watch the problem never happen again
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:

I'm not real big on the passive-aggressive HOA tyrant approach of closing the entire pool prior to an actionable event - the breaking of glass in this case. Target the individuals w/ the public pronouncement to "law abiding" citizens that silence is complicity if dues payers don't take any responsibility for policy awareness, then a likely result is pool closure.

Hook the horse to the front of the cart.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
the 'actionable event' is the very presence of the glass itself

the state inspector would IMMEDIATELY close the pool

my way ... request that the glass be removed by the 'possessors' ... if compliant, done deal ... if not, close pool and soon to be done deal (enforcement would be by the other members who would no longer be 'uninvolved' but would be screaming for rule compliance so THEY could use the pool)

win - win situation

ps. every BOD is an 'agent of the owner' re: the swimming pool, and could be held personally liable for failure to enforce a pool closing safety event ... don't buy this? - check with YOUR attorney

... graduate of the school of hard knocks
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
John,

You are not the BOD. You're one guy. Closing the pool "show em something" doesn't make sense if the act, when it happens, accomplishes the same. It makes the board appear as if it's looking reasons to punish its own people - most of whom have done nothing.

This is philosophical in nature. Many HOAs would appreciate your approach.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Kelly

One of the most difficult fellow BOD Members I ever had to deal with was a school teacher that believed in punish the whole class for the action of one.

Just my view.
LawrenceC1 (Georgia)
Posts: 480
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AlexM1 on 07/08/2012 7:16 AM
At the condo, we have a rule that NO GLASS items in the pool area. It is on a sign in the pool area but not so mentioned in the CC&Rs.

If an individual(s) bring in glass bottles or glass items and are told to remove them, how do we enforce it...


Alex,

Most CC&Rs give the board the right to make new rules that have the same force and consequences as the rules already written into the CC&Rs. Courts will generally uphold a new rule if it:

1. Furthers the goals of the Association as stated in its Articles of Incorporation and Restrictive Covenants.
2. Complies with all local, state, and federal laws.
3. Follows the guidelines for making rules as spelled out in the Bylaws; including notification of members and filing in the corporate records.
4. Is applied consistently and impartially, never being used against a particular homeowner or class of homeowners.
5. Is reasonable.

In this context, "reasonable" is defined as:

1. Having some legitimate and explainable basis for existence.
2. Being in accordance with reason, fairness, duty, or prudence supported or justified by fact or circumstance.

So first be sure that the "no glass" rule is properly established following the right process, then go ahead and enforce it as you would any other rule -- by denying access to the pool, assessing fines, or anything else permitted by your governing documents.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
the 'no glass allowed in pool area' rule is NOT the HOA's but the requirement of the STATE AGENCY issuing the 'pool permit'

ask your insurance agent what they would cover if a pool were left open knowingly with glass present on the deck area or tables

the reason the rule was ALSO entered into the HOA's rules was to help ensure compliance with the STATE's OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS (which will also address the issue of 'agent(s) of the owner')

the directors as well as any members of a 'pool committee' would be the agents

it matters not that the HOA may be 'tolerant' .... the state AHJ would shut the pool down IMMEDIATELY if glass were discovered at / in the pool area (inside the fence)

why not close it yourself and let 'peer pressure' solve the problem of the obnoxious non-compliant 'bathers' ?
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
AHJ = authority having jurisdiction

ps. if members are permitted to invite non-members as guests, the pool is most likely classified as some level of 'public pool' (here in S.C. it would be a class 'B' public pool) since non-members of the general public would be using it (albeit by invitation only) ..... if you were invited to a HOA's pool would you not want some sort of 'code' to be in place? ..... or would you simply 'trust' that the operators are fully competant 'on their own' and are willing to 'do the right thing' regardless of the expense(s) involved? ..... thought not ..... if you don't like the rules already in place, try to write your own and contact your legislators ..... good luck

if the people with the glass will not remove it .... the pool MUST repeat MUST be closed until the violation is rectified .... no choice / no option

delaying the re-opening to let peer pressure work is optional, but the closing / calling law enforcement (for the resulting trespass) is NOT optional

pps. if you don't want to operate your pool in compliance with the regulations -> close it (be prepared to remove the 'shell' and back-fill the hole in 24 months as per the Federal Clean Water Act of 1972)

ppps. has not your pool operator / company told you all this? if not, time for a new one
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:

Maybe violators should be whipped w/ your riding crop before you close the pool to the 99% of rules following residents.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> the 'no glass allowed in pool area' rule is NOT the HOA's but the requirement of the STATE AGENCY issuing the 'pool permit'

I would welcome some links to this sort of requirement...even if they are only relevant in SC. What state agency??
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:


http://www.scdhec.gov/environment/water/regs/r61-51.pdf

see page 30:
(b) Pool Rules Sign. At least one (1) "Pool Rules" sign for informational purposes must be posted
such that the sign is visible from all entrance points of the pool and must contain, as a minimum, the items
listed below, with the blanks reflected in (xii) through (xvi) below filled in before authorized operation:
(i) There should be no solo swimming.
(ii) There should be no running, boisterous or rough play.
(iii) No person under the influence of alcohol or drugs should use the pool.
(iv) There should be no spitting or blowing nose in pool.
(v) Persons with diarrheal illness or nausea should not enter the pool.
(vi) Persons with skin, eye, ear or respiratory infections should not enter the pool.
(vii) Persons with open lesions or wounds should not enter the pool.
(viii) No animals or pets allowed in the pool enclosure.
(ix) No glass allowed in the pool or on the deck.
(x) No children should be in the pool without supervision.
(xi) You should take a shower before entering the pool.
(xii) This pool is open from a.m. to p.m.
R.61-51(C)
22
(xiii) The maximum number of swimmers allowed in the pool is .
(xiv) A first aid kit is located .
(xv) An emergency phone (or other notification device) is located .
(xvi) Life saving equipment is located at .


see page 51:
(b) No glass of any kind or any other material that may be a hazard to bathers’ feet or bodies will be
allowed in the pool area. No furniture constructed with glass components may be located within the pool
area.


see page 55:
1. Closure of Public Swimming Pools.
(a) Public Swimming Pools are to be closed immediately by the owner or his/her designated agent
under the following conditions:
(i) When a public pool has not been issued or fails to display a valid annual operating permit
from the Department.
(ii) When the required number of lifeguards are not on duty at Type "A" and Type "E" pools or
Type “B” pools choosing to use certified lifeguards in lieu of the required “No Lifeguard on Duty” signs.
(iii) When any pool is cloudy such that the main drains are not visible and/or the number of
openings in the main drain cannot be counted.
(iv) When any item of life saving equipment is missing, defective or not readily accessible in the
pool area.
(v) When the telephone/emergency notification device is missing, defective, or not accessible.
(vi) When an imminent safety hazard exists that poses a threat of injury or illness to bathers.
(vii) When the free residual chlorine or equivalent halogen reading is less than 1.0 parts per
million (ppm) or greater than 8.0 parts per million (ppm).
(viii) When the pH is less than 7.0 or greater than 7.8.
(ix) When the disinfection, recirculation, automated control system used to adjust water
chemistry, or filtration system is not fully operational.
(x) When the pool log is not available or is not properly maintained.
(xi) When fecal coliform is present in the pool water.
(xii) When the temperature of any type pool exceeds 104 degrees Fahrenheit.
(xiii) When “Pool Rules”, “No Diving”, spa “Caution”, “No Lifeguard on Duty”, or “Pool
Operator” signs are not posted in accordance with R.61-51.C.28(a) through (f).
(xiv) When time limits specified by the Department have been exceeded for the correction, repair,
or replacement of defective, missing, or unauthorized equipment.
(xv) When the facility fails to retain or produce proof of the services of a properly credentialed
pool operator.
(xvi) When the existing pool perimeter fencing and/or entrance gate or door do not meet the
requirements of R.61-51.C(8).


I am sure the great state of Oklahoma is at least as strict as South Carolina!
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Definition of imminent: likely to occur at any moment.

Glass, while a violation, cannot be "likely to occur at any moment." However, breaking that glass does create imminent issues, but the presence of glass, itself, does not rise to that level. When determining the shuttering of an amenity, it's an either-or situation.

The act of thunder rumbling or lightning presents imminent danger. A 300lb dude jumping in the pool could present, by the book, a problem.

The pit bulls are out. Grrrrrrrr.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
A fellow I know manages a Condo Association in SC. He asked their attorney about ADA Rules on pools and he was told if the pool was for owners and their guests, including renters, then the pool was considered private, not public.

Granted this was about ADA but private is private.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
nope .... as per Oklahoma:

"Public swimming pool or public pool" means a structure of concrete, masonry, or other approved materials, located either indoors or outdoors, used for bathing or swimming, or for instructional purposes in swimming, diving, or other aquatic activities by humans, and filled with a filtered and disinfected water supply, together with buildings, appurtenances, and equipment used in connection therewith. A public swimming pool or public pool shall mean a conventional pool, spa type pool, wading pool, special purpose pool, or water recreation attraction to which admission may be gained with or without payment of a fee and includes but is not limited to pools operated by or serving camps, churches, cities, clubs, counties, health spas, institutions, parks, state agencies, schools, subdivisions, or other cooperative living type projects such as apartments, boarding houses, condominiums, hotels, mobile home parks, motels, recreational vehicle parks, and mobile home parks.


(similar to SC rules)
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
LET THE OPINIONS END

HERE IS THE OKLAHOMA LAW:

http://www.ok.gov/health/documents/Public%20Bathing%20Places320.pdf

DONE DEAL

ps. if the HOA in question has under 30 'units' it is a private pool, if 30 or more it is considered a public pool (don't know why, but that's the way it is in OK)

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