What Happens IF a Rogue HOA President Alters HOA Minutes / Records

What happens if a rogue HOA President (with an agenda and a huge conflict of interest), now in control of HOA corporate records, changes old minutes to serve their personal benefit and purpose about an old but still open HOA-Owner conflict (the President's)?

Could they be held responsible criminally?

Are there any grown-ups who live there?

Actually, Larry, they are...I think. LOL

We have about 50% rentals (sadly) and those off-site owners plus the resident owners are (like another HOA community we live in) are almost totally complacent and passive and "too busy" to bother. Never hear a peep out of them unless the Board raises dues $5 or the lawn crew didn't blow off their sidewalk. They don't come to meetings and the current and past years boards have been VERY quiet about HOA business to the other owners. This years HOA board refuses to provide a copy of the budget, the YTD income/expense reports, a comparison, minutes, etc. Even after repeated requests. We are about to have an attorney send a demand letter.

The curious thing about this board president is that having owned his unit for the past decade, he's barely lived there 25% of that entire time...for a long time maintaining another home, now living with relatives I think...yet the unit sits unoccupied and unrented. He historically has paid for utilities, dues (when not late), other overhead expenses and does not rent it out. So it's a negative cash flow situation for him for the better part of a decade. He complaints about dues and is periodically late, sometimes quite late in paying. He has been instrumental in pretending there are Alabama laws that cap dues late fees at $15 (lowering them from $35) when there is no such law and he personally benefits. He has commited a major violation against bylaws and covenants (altering an HOA owned part of the building, making significant structural changes) that have had and will continue to have adverse financial effects and potential liabilities FOREVER on the HOA.

It appears on the surface that the books have not been audited in a very long time. The board president couldn't pass muster to get covered by the fidelity bond so I'm guessing he doesn't "sign checks" (hopefully) but no one is able to see general information so they definitely cannot look at bank statements, cancelled checks, invoices and contracts. They are even complacent as to have keys to the office, the bank checks, the computer system, files, etc...

As far as the boards go, they ARE grown-ups but are definitely not business minded...and they are naive...and they "don't like conflict" so they "stick their heads in the sand". I think most of them are good people with a "head mentality" that don't have a clue and look toward the monthly meetings as a social gathering.

The mess is heading toward a petition to recall the entire board. Just needed to know if any corporate related actions might carry more than civil penalties.

Yes it is a mess but all made by supposed grown-ups.

Just like contesting different versions of a will, it's difficult to show when records were changed and which version is the true and accurate version.

Our Association Posts copies of approved minutes on the website. This does a few things:

1) places a time stamp when the document was uploaded
2) provides membership access
3) backs up the original documents (if any were lost)

As others have said, if records are changed there are limited options:

1) Recall the individual/entire board
2) vote them out at the next election
3) Take the issue to the courts to decide which version is deemed to be the official version.

Even if a recall or challenge to a reelection is successful the board changes, you're going to have to go through a formal process in one meeting to change the minutes of another meeting (and possibly one where no present board member attended). This of course opens the door to once again ask the question - What happens if past minutes are changed.
Unless their is some legal challenge settled by binding arbitration or the courts, the issue could always be present.

Not knowing (and not caring) what the issue behind the perceived change is - it's usually best to come to some compromise over the underlying issue.

Since members of this site know some of the history with your Association, even if you have a property manager, in my opinion corporate records should be kept by the Secretary. Since this is now an issue within the corporation, I would recommend that the records be immediately transferred to the custody of the Secretary.

We have about 50% rentals (sadly) and those off-site owners plus the resident owners are (like another HOA community we live in) are almost totally complacent and passive and "too busy" to bother.
It never ceases to amaze me when I hear remarks like this. People buy a couple of shares of stock in a corporation and they learn everything there is to know to maximize their return on their investment including making sure the Board is doing its job. But invest thousands if not hundreds of thousand dollars into a single share of an HOA and they could care less what happens as long as it doesn't overtly affect them.

His name wouldn't be "Jim" would it? LOL! If it is, I would truly believe everything you have to say about him...I understand your struggle dealing with someone like this. I did for years before just selling and walking away. My advice is to get those who are wise to the situation to organize and run for the board. There is strength in numbers and you just got to get those numbers...

You are SO pathetic, BamaJ! Do you have a specific person from our community that you would like to see as the President? WHY DON'T YOU SHOW UP AT ANY MEETING AND SUGGEST? OH, WAIT, YOU WORK... Well, WHY DON'T YOU WRITE A LETTER? YOU are a jerk. If you want to be a hero for this community - then be a part of monthly meetings... I did not see a single man with as much negativity at out meetings for last 2 years as you have, neither there was a single letter received...
Nobody is hiding financial records... There was only our new neighbor who (with cursing on her lips) was demanding the revealing of the records... The neighbors are concerned for their such speedy curiosity about everything without any adaptation to a new community. There was NO ONE else requesting the financial records. There is something sticky with your way of thinking...
As for the liens - this is what happens when you own a small business. Don't you remember 2007 when EVERY business suffered? Well, some "smart" companies got bail outs, others just slowly recover over the time. We could just got the bankruptcy filed but WE decided just to work harder and pay it off... IT IS hard but it's the right thing to do...
Our Secretary has the minutes with her, our Property manager has only copies... I don't know where you are going with altering the minutes but what you are claiming is not true!
It's been more than 2 years, get over it... M could simply add her name to the title and be back to the Board, why she did not do it so far???

Bama,

Some points of your post are certainly nice things to have or have happen but are not required by law.
The Board must do what is required by law. They may do what is nice providing that the nicety complies with the laws and governing document, but it's their choice.

Expecting that your Association is incorporated as a nonprofit (most are), then corporate laws in addition to HOA/Condo laws would apply. Based on this expectation, I would like to offer the following comments:

Note: the Code of Alabama can be found at this link


Per AL Code Section 35-8A-318 (Title 35, Chapter 8A, Section 318): "All financial and other records shall be made reasonably available for examination by any unit owner and his authorized agents "

Per Section 10A-3-2.32: "All books and records of a nonprofit corporation may be inspected by any member, director or officer, or his or her agent or attorney, for any proper purpose at any reasonable time."

Since AL does not define "reasonable time" one would suspect that 5 or 10 business days would be considered reasonable. Note: I'd suggest that the Association could (and should) adopt a resolution that defines reasonable time.

Bama, Assocaitions must do what is legal. They can do more but are not required to. Therefore, the Association must make the records available but is not required to post them. Unless there is something within the Articles of Incorporation, the Bylaws or the CC&Rs that say otherwise, each board may post or not post.

Personally, since posting the records in the open can allow nonmembers to view them, I would not post them in a clubhouse. Mailing incurs costs for printing, mailing and supplies (envelopes, labels, etc.). Therefore, to minimize costs, which keeps assessments low, I would not perform regular mailings of those records either. We do post them in a members only section of our website which requires a password to access.


Those records belong to the Association not to the members. This is similar to the Associations attorney working for the Association not the individual members. Per AL law, members do have a right to review these records if they make the effort to ask (typically in writing) or attend meetings.

If asked, per the law, the Association must allow the records to be inspected and examined but do not have to provide copies. However, many Associations will provide copies to be nice. Some will provide copies for the cost of the copies.

Again, the Association must do what is legal, not what is nice.


This is a an issue for that member and they need to be the one's who need to decide how to approach the issue.
In my opinion, it is not your issue.

Just as the members of this board don't know all the specifics behind these issues, it's likely that you don't know all the specifics behind the request. Human nature has people phrasing questions and providing specific details that benefit them rather than explain the whole issue.

Perhaps the request wasn't in writing. Perhaps the request was for copies rather than examination. Perhaps the Board is waiting for payment before providing copies. Perhaps time schedules don't coincide to allow examination.
Perhaps, Perhaps, Perhaps. Irregardless of the reasons (real or perceived) this is an issue for the owners to handle.


If the office corporate office is truly under the control of the Association and not a contractor, I would agree.

One could argue that the corporate office is that of the registered agent (which is typically the Associations attorney).

Usually the governing documents specify that the Secretary is the custodian of the records. Where those records are stored, is open for debate. AL law, 35-8A-318, only specifies that "such records shall be made available in the county where the condominium is located." They could be stored out of State, in a home, in a records vault, etc. That decision is up to each board.

Does your Association have a resolution about records, how they will be kept, etc? If not, it appears that not only the current board but past boards failed to address the issue.

I've attached a document that someone had posted in an earlier thread.
It's in MSWord format and titled Policies Every Board Needs before They Are Needed


I can't say that I could argue with that point. However, most people are elected because they volunteered. Typically there are only enough volunteers as there are vacancies. Members likely do not know the background of their own neighbor vs. someone who is willing to volunteer. Therefore, more often than not, they cast a vote for who is willing because they are tired of doing the job or don't want to do the job.

Additionally, unless you are directly involved with the issue, it's probable that you don't have the entire story of any issue.

Example: There is a dispute about the quality of work you had done on your home. You are holding the final payment until the work is completed. The contractor, believing it is completed, places a lien on your home. Perhaps they even file a claim for the money through the courts. Anyone doing research finding that there is a lien on the home and a court case pending may conclude that you are a person who doesn't want to pay their bills, have financial problems and legal troubles. Being polite they won't bring the subject up with you but might spread these "facts" and their conclusions around the development (aka gossip) or post them on a website. You know the real story that it was the contractor who was a dirtball, but you never had a chance to explain your side of the issue. Even if you do have a chance to explain, enough of the development has heard only one side for so long that they have now accepted it as the gospel truth and anything you say is just excuses.

A case where the perception becomes greater than the truth (I work in the media, I know for a fact that this happens all the time).

On a Side note and posted previously -

Please respect this site by keeping personal attacks (goes for both you and Natalya) within your Association and not on this site.

Bruce,

Based on the continued attacks between those two, you are probably correct.
Hopefully, someone who is just looking for info will find it helpful.

Tim

MODS

I think Nat has taken this to a personal attack and the subject should be closed.

Thank you

John,

To report things to the moderators, you need to contact them via the contact HOATalk Support link under the help tab (blue bar at top).

Done.