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AsoS (California)
Posts: 6
Posted:
I moved into a gated community about a year ago and ever since it has just been a nightmare (I am pretty sure you guys hear that a lot). I will try to sum up my problems. Where I live, you must have your dogs on a leash when you have them outside. I will at times find dog poop right on my porch. I just sigh and clean it up. I keep receiving complaints from the HOA that my children must not leave their basketball court in the driveway and that it is not allowed. First off my kids ages are 4 and 6. Second the basketball court that they are referring to is a 5' toddlers basketball court. I did try to fight that one because just down the street someone has a full size 10' basketball court in their driveway at all times. The reply that I got back was that "they must be paying the $50.00 daily fine for leaving it outside". I find that hard to believe because that basketball court has not been moved out of the driveway ever since I moved in this community (50 x 30 = 1500.00 a month to leave a court in the driveway?). There was a pre-existing satellite on the home and when I moved in, I swapped the dish (dish network) for DirecTV and they slapped a fine on me because I did not get it approved.

Now that was a few items of what had happen. Now my real big issue which leads me to believe there is possible discrimination issue is that both of my children have Cystic Fibrosis. It is real hard emotionally and physically to try and make sure they stay as healthy as possible. Since they were able to walk, one of their daily physical treatments was to jump on a 42" trampoline. It came to a point where they stopped jumping on the trampoline because it did not interest them anymore. It is hard to make a child at that young of an age to understand how crucial their treatments and excercises are. On my son's birthday, I had a bounce house setup for two days and they did not leave this bounce house for the entire time. That is when I decided to purchase a full size 12' trampoline with the safety net (no air compressor noises like a bounce house).

In the HOA ruls/regulations it states that anything that is installed, added or modified in the backyard must be approved IF IT IS VISIABLE FROM THE STREET OR ROAD. I had a letter come in that I must remove the trampoline. This was the straw that broke the camels back. I went to the property management office personally and spoke to one of the managers. He told me that my neighbor has complained about the trampoline being a privacy issue. Now my home is a single story and my neighbor's is a two story. I told the manager, what about my privacy when I see the neighbor from the second floor always looking down into our living room or courtyard? He did not comment. He told me that the board may ask me to remove the trampoline after every use on a daily basis (keep in mind it took three people 2 1/2 hours to put this thing together). I told him that he is nuts if I am going to do that. I explained to him about my childrens situation and that the Doctor and Professor at Stanford Medical University can confirm how important the trampoline excercise is if needed (my children go to stanford every 8 weeks).

Now I received a letter stating that I must install Italian Cypress or some similar vegitation all around my backyard in order to please my neighbors. Which is also impossible because of the space between the concrete surrounding my house and fence line is only 4".

I apologize about the long explanation and this is only a brief version of the crap I am dealing with however when it comes to my childrens health and safety I blew a fuse.

Any thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am going to sound like the most heartless uncaring person alive here but got to say it...Sick kids with medical issues is just a crutch or focus point to divert from the fact you are in violation. Sorry but you had to get the trampoline approved FIRST before installing. If you had done this, then all would have been okay or disaproved up front.

If I had a dime for everytime I heard "Health issues" is why I get what I want, I'd have atleast $100 in a week...The reality is that YOU have to go and ask for permission in a HOA and NOT forgiveness. There is rarely any forgiveness in a HOA ONLY permission.

I'd suggest next time doing a bit of forethinking and asking permission first before going an investing a dime in something that could be a violation. A trampoline, a basketball goal, or other items should have been discussed at an open meeting. You may be suprised that some people would have indeed allowed you to have the items due to your children's health IF only you had asked first and explained.

Again sorry this is so harsh. However, just pointing out the mistake many people made when making these innoncent choices. I could tell you the HOA is a big bad meanie but they are doing what they have to do. That is follow the rules. You would appreciate it if they enforce those rules on someone else.

Former HOA President
JeanneK3 (Maryland)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Hello:
I agree with Melissa that you should have gotten permission first. Have your doctor write a letter saying your children need the trampoline and attach it to a request for permission to have the trampoline and submit it. If this is denied, your children are handicapped and there must be several California agencies that will write to your board and set them straight.

Regarding the dog poop, take pictures of it and send the pictures to the board asking that it be stopped. Your board probably doesn't know this is going on and will be just as horrified as you are. There isn't much a board can do except write in the newsletter that if the board finds out who is doing this they will notify the police.

And try not to over-react. You've got a few bad apples in the community. We all do. Give the board the chance to do the right thing.
Jeanne
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/28/2012 4:23 AM
I am going to sound like the most heartless uncaring person alive here but got to say it...Sick kids with medical issues is just a crutch or focus point to divert from the fact you are in violation. Sorry but you had to get the trampoline approved FIRST before installing. If you had done this, then all would have been okay or disaproved up front.

If I had a dime for everytime I heard "Health issues" is why I get what I want, I'd have atleast $100 in a week...The reality is that YOU have to go and ask for permission in a HOA and NOT forgiveness. There is rarely any forgiveness in a HOA ONLY permission.

I'd suggest next time doing a bit of forethinking and asking permission first before going an investing a dime in something that could be a violation. A trampoline, a basketball goal, or other items should have been discussed at an open meeting. You may be suprised that some people would have indeed allowed you to have the items due to your children's health IF only you had asked first and explained.

Again sorry this is so harsh. However, just pointing out the mistake many people made when making these innoncent choices. I could tell you the HOA is a big bad meanie but they are doing what they have to do. That is follow the rules. You would appreciate it if they enforce those rules on someone else.

Tough love, but I agree with Mel.
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Aso:

First I would like to say how sorry I am that your kids are afflicted with CF. Certainly a challenging situation. I wish them and you the best.

Now on to your situation. Seems to me there is one important lesson for you to walk away with from all of this. There are in fact rules and regulations you accepted to live under when you bought this property.
Are they enforced perfectly in every situation with every owner, in most cases not. But from what you have provided seems your BOM acts AFTER you have taken some action. You put up a dish you were fined. You install a trampoline you are fined. See the pattern?

My suggestion in the future BEFORE you take any such actions you run it by the Board or MC and get their input beforehand.

IMO by now you appear to be a problematic owner to this Board. Some owners live for years and never have issues with their Board. You seem to have had several. Bad course to put yourself on going forward.

Now as to "possible discrmination" I think that is quite a stretch. And sometimes in the world today some people think their kids can do no wrong and everyone should see them in that light. However this is not always a sentiment shared by all including your neighbors. Toys, whether they be basketball nets, or trampolines are not always a welcome addition to the property.

And I would not now use your children's affliction as justification for your violating the existing rules. Certainly, there are other menas by which your kids get get their needed exercise. That is not a road I would be willing to go down for their sake.

If you are looking for a fight you can find one no doubt. IMO a better path try to work with the Board, with your neighbors, which will serve you better than forcing yourself upon them.

If no middle ground can be found and both sides dig in their heals you will have a war. My guess you have quite enough already to deal with and your time can be spent more usefully on other issues.

Good luck.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
In my last HOA we made several CC&R exceptions for people with physical issues. We made it clear the exceptions were for those people only and had to be removed/modified when no longer needed.

AsoS (California)
Posts: 6
Posted:
I appreciate everyone's feedback. From what I read, I should of submitted for an approval first. When I read the rules/laws, it stated that I must submit only if it is visible from the street or road and again it is not. I guess the situation is like a double edge sword. The said thing is that there are several homes with children's play sets/play house that are taller then our trampoline and clearly visible from the road. I guess I should just sell and get out. It is enough that we already live in a police state and don't need more policing about how my family and I live in our own home.
AsoS (California)
Posts: 6
Posted:
sorry about the spelling...
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
As usual, I disagree with everybody else.

My understanding is that under the Fair Housing Act that the HOA must make reasonable accommodation for health needs. If there is a medical reason for the trampoline and a doctor willing to attest to that, the HOA may be in violation.
AsoS (California)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Larry, what do you suggest I do to get this issue resolved?
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AsoS on 06/28/2012 9:34 AM
Larry, what do you suggest I do to get this issue resolved?

Knowing the CC&R's by the letter is a good start. As you point out, your CC&R's state X. Then, you should prepare your defense of why your trampoline meets or does not meet X. IMO, the best way to fight "the system" is to know it better than the other side, so arm yourself with the regs, pictures (stand in the street, and take pictures showing no visible objects, for example), and give it the good fight. Practice the following sentence: "I understand what you are saying, but the regulations clearly state >>>>>>, so please, explain to me how this violates those words..." Or "I don't understand what you are saying. Can you point out to me the regulation you are referencing, here in this copy of the regulations? Thank you."

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Before doing anything else, I would get a statement from the physician advising you to use a trampoline for your kids. Without that statement I think those named below may be a little reluctant to assist you as this is not the typical ramp-and-railing that handicapped residents often ask for.

Try contacting HUD. They should be able to direct you to the appropriate office for filing a complaint.

Since you are in California, see what state offices may be able to help you. Since your kids have CF, see if the CF association can give you some guidance.

If you obtain the physician's statement you might want to raise the issue again with the HOA. If I were on the board I would take more notice of a physician's written statement than I would of a homeowner who says without proof that this is what the doctor said to do.
AsoS (California)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Thank you Brian and Larry for the great advice.
JeanneK3 (Maryland)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Look up the Americans With Disabilities home page and call or e-mail them. They should be able to help you.
Jeanne
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
AsoS,

While I don't agree with Melissa's view that asking for an exception to rules and/or regulations based on disability is a "crutch", I do agree on the need to ask for permission first. Also, keep in mind that the board may require conditions on granting permission for an exception, such as the planting of trees to conceal the trampoline. Although I believe the FHA requirements requiring reasonable exceptions prohibits requirements that result in excessive expense, here's the problem: It might require litigation to fight such a requirement(such as planting trees) which might cost more than planting the trees would. Your choices boil down to: 1.) Litigation based on principle, 2.) Obtaining what is needed at the lowest cost, 3.) Dropping the matter altogether.

As for obtaining prior approval before installing a satellite dish, the FCC prohibits such practice, unless there are legitimate safety reasons for requiring such approval. Even then, the FCC has ruled that an association must publish guidelines describing what is required for a "safe" installation. In other words, the fine that was levied based on not seeking prior approval for your dish installation may have been illegal and could have been appealed at that time to the FCC for a ruling. It's probably too late for that now.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
If the rules state specifically that advanced permission is required only if it can be seen from the street and it can't be seen from the street, then I don't see how permission is required OR how there is any violation.

That's the first rule for either part in a HOA dispute: determine if there really is a violation.

Imho, it sounds like whiny neighbors if it can't be seen from the road and there are no other violations.
AsoS (California)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Thanks everyone for the feedback!
LawrenceC1 (Georgia)
Posts: 480
Posted:
In reading your original post, a couple of things jumped out at me...

Quote:
... just down the street someone has a full size 10' basketball court in their driveway at all times.

If there is uneven application of the rules and restrictions, it may be "selective enforcement", which is illegal. You can see an excellent article about it here and here.

Quote:
... I swapped the dish (dish network) for DirecTV and they slapped a fine on me because I did not get it approved.

In the Telecommunications Act of 1996 the federal government passed a law largely prohibiting homeowners associations from restricting satellite dishes less than 1 meter (39") in diameter. The law even prohibits an HOA from requesting that qualifying dishes be approved beforehand.

It appears from your post that your current board is running "fast and loose" with the rules. As others have posted here, you should follow all the rules yourself, and submit requests for approvals when required, but it would seem that you have grounds to reign in some of the actions of your Association.

NancyG1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 119
Posted:
You may also want to check with your insurance company under your homeowners coverage. Most insurance company's will not insure trampolines. They are excluded under your homeowners coverage. This may solve your problem. Best wishes to you and your children. I also agree that when you belong to an HOA there are rules and regulations you have to go by. You may suggest to your Board it would be nice to change your Covenants to take into consideration the handicapped with a letter from their doctor. Covenants can be changed. Good luck.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
>In the Telecommunications Act of 1996 the federal government passed a law largely prohibiting homeowners associations from restricting satellite dishes less than 1 meter (39") in diameter. The law even prohibits an HOA from requesting that qualifying dishes be approved beforehand.

Not completely correct. From the FCC website

"The rule allows local governments, community associations and landlords to enforce restrictions that do not impair the installation, maintenance or use of the types of antennas described above, as well as restrictions needed for safety or historic preservation. Under some circumstances where a central or common antenna is available, a community association or landlord may restrict the installation of individual antennas."
LawrenceC1 (Georgia)
Posts: 480
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredS7 on 06/29/2012 1:28 PM

Not completely correct.


In practice, fashioning a rule that does not "impair the installation, maintenance or use of the types of antennas described above" has proven to be difficult or nearly impossible for most HOAs (except thise in a recognized historical district). Any requirement for an application beforehand is seen to "impair installation", and has been thrown out.

Please see the articles here and here.

The experience of the OP in installing DirecTV was an activity covered by the OTARD rule and should not have been subject to a requirement for pre-approval. The HOA was prohibited by that rule from issuing a fine for the activity.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredS7 on 06/29/2012 1:28 PM
>In the Telecommunications Act of 1996 the federal government passed a law largely prohibiting homeowners associations from restricting satellite dishes less than 1 meter (39") in diameter. The law even prohibits an HOA from requesting that qualifying dishes be approved beforehand.

Not completely correct. From the FCC website

"The rule allows local governments, community associations and landlords to enforce restrictions that do not impair the installation, maintenance or use of the types of antennas described above, as well as restrictions needed for safety or historic preservation. Under some circumstances where a central or common antenna is available, a community association or landlord may restrict the installation of individual antennas."

Fred,

You need to read more on the FCC website:

One statement on that website reads:

"A local restriction that prohibits all antennas would prevent viewers from receiving signals, and is prohibited by the Commission's rule. Procedural requirements can also unreasonably delay installation, maintenance or use of an antenna covered by this rule. For example, local rules or regulations that require a person to obtain a permit or approval prior to installation create unreasonable delay and are generally prohibited. Permits or prior approval necessary to serve a legitimate written safety or historic preservation purpose may be permissible."

The key here is "may be permissible" - "MAY BE".

With respect to community or central antennas, the FCC has this to say:

"Generally, the availability of a central antenna may allow the association, landlord, property owner, or other management entity to restrict the installation by individuals of antennas otherwise protected by the rule. Restrictions based on the availability of a central antenna will generally be permissible provided that: (1) the person receives the particular video programming or fixed wireless service that the person desires and could receive with an individual antenna covered under the rule (e.g., the person would be entitled to receive service from a specific provider, not simply a provider selected by the association); (2) the signal quality of transmission to and from the person's home using the central antenna is as good as, or better than, the quality the person could receive or transmit with an individual antenna covered by the rule; (3) the costs associated with the use of the central antenna are not greater than the costs of installation, maintenance and use of an individual antenna covered under the rule; and (4) the requirement to use the central antenna instead of an individual antenna does not unreasonably delay the viewer's ability to receive video programming or fixed wireless services."

In other words, if the central antenna does not provide the programming one desires at a reasonable cost and with acceptable quality, then the individual cannot be prohibited from installing an antenna (as allowed by the FCC rules) that will allow the individual such reception. Simply put, if your community antenna doesn't provide HBO and I want HBO, then tough, I get to put up my 1-meter or smaller dish.

You should also be able to find several cases and previous rulings on the FCC website. I recall reading several rulings a few years ago about a case involving an association and an individual. They tried three times to get the individual to take down his dish, and even went the safety route. The FCC shot the association down all three times. What a waste of all of the association's homeowner's money!

The FCC is like the IRS, the FBI, and Postal Inspectors. You don't want to tangle with them.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
That's all fine and good, but this involved an owner replacing an EXISTING satellite dish with a similar one from a different company. Any reasonable person would expect that if the current dish is ok, as it must have been if the home were purchased free and clear of any encumbrances imposed by the association, then replacing it with a dish from another company would also be ok.
Their "it was ok for the previous owner but isn't ok for you" argument doesn't fly.

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