Homeowners refusing service for mediation

LisaF5 (Florida)
Posts: 11

Posted:

We are a community of 300 townhomes in Florida.

In out attempts to enforce rules, we often resort to requests for mediation. These are sent CRR. Many of the homeowners work, travel, or just don't answer their doors when the mailman tries to deliver these notices.

Can the board members accept delivery and then give the notices to the homeowners when they are home? We also send by regular mail.

Does the rule of "good service" apply to mediation requests or are we exempt by mailing to the address on record?

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Lisa having a Board member sign for the letter kinda defeats the purpose of sing it don't you think? Plus I'm not sure it would even be legal, you know interfering with delivery, intercepting mail not intended for them and all. We send important notices certified return receipt and regular mail and note the method of service at the bottom of each letter: By Certified Return Receipt and regular mail.

We have never had a problem claiming service when we show a copy of the letter along with the returned unsigned CRR. Although if we really want to make sure they get it, we pay the sheriff for delivery. Deputies can show up at all hours and will bang on the door until someone answers.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Unlike arbitration or a lawsuit, mediation is usually a voluntary proceeding.

Is the mediator sending the notice by certified mail with a return receipt or is the HOA doing it? This is kind of heavy-handed and there a lot of people who will not sign or go to the post office to pick up a certified letter.

Unless there is a state law or rule to the contrary, a better approach might be to just hand-deliver the request to the owner whenever possible.

Personally, I oppose service of anything by certified mail. The mailman does not know the contents of the letter and is unaware that he is being used as a process server. If someone other than the homeowner is the one who signs for the letter they have no idea of the importance of the contents. I have seen situations where someone residing in the home other than the named party signed for the letter and then set it aside unopened where it laid for months before the intended recepient found it. Officers of the court, on the other hand, are supposed to identify themselves as process servers and make certain that the party who recieves the summons and complaint understands that they are being sued in court. Personal service provides the assurance that the proper party has been served and understands that he has been served.

LisaF5 (Florida)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Thank you for the responsed. The letters are sent by our lawyer.

We are having difficulty enforcing the rules. We initially sent out violation letters, but most were ignored. Then whe had the laywers send out mediation requests (at $300 EACH letter). They are being ignored too. We have tried filing suit against a handful of violators, but owners keep using "selective enforcement" as a defense. Under Florida Statute 720, mediation is mandatory. Some of the owners are trying to recoup legal fees but they did not send timely responses to the mediation requests. I KNOW they got the lawyer letters, but they did not sign the green cards. Sometimes a tenant or neighbor signed. Sometimes the certified letters were returned ar unclaimed or refused.

Under the law, isn't something mailed to the owners address of record considered delivered if it is not returned?

JeanneK3 (Maryland)
Posts: 562

Posted:

Lisa F:
Yes, first class mail is considered a legal delivery of a notice and I bet there is something in your documents to that effect. Since someone could always refuse to sign for registered mail, it is not as good.

If you have continuing violations of your rules, the only thing to do is to set up a fining schedule if your governing documents or state law allows fines. The trick to successful fining is you want compliance, not the money. So have the fines be large enough to hurt but make it clear that if there is compliance, the fines will be waived. Something like $25 a day for 100 days after which the fine is turned over to a lawyer for collection tends to catch people's attention. Most will use the money to make a necessary cited repair rather than run up a debt.

Jeanne

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Lisa

Please backup for me. A few questions.

1. What are the violations?

2. Have the violators been notified and offered a chance to rectify the violation(s)?

3. Have the violators been noticed they will be fined and has fining begun?

4. What does the $300.00 charge from the HOA attorney buy/get?

5. Who will be the mediator?

Thanks for the clarifications.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LisaF5 on 05/26/2012 11:50 AM
The letters are sent by our lawyer. . . . Then whe had the laywers send out mediation requests (at $300 EACH letter).

Unless the law requires that a lawyer send the letters I would immediately cease this practice. A letter sent by an attorney normally has no more weight in court than a letter from the HOA president. In any dispute the parties have a duty to mitigate damages and burying the other party in needless and excessive legal fees is a breach of that duty.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LisaF5 on 05/26/2012 11:50 AM
Thank you for the responsed. The letters are sent by our lawyer.

We are having difficulty enforcing the rules. We initially sent out violation letters, but most were ignored. Then whe had the laywers send out mediation requests (at $300 EACH letter). They are being ignored too. We have tried filing suit against a handful of violators, but owners keep using "selective enforcement" as a defense. Under Florida Statute 720, mediation is mandatory. Some of the owners are trying to recoup legal fees but they did not send timely responses to the mediation requests. I KNOW they got the lawyer letters, but they did not sign the green cards. Sometimes a tenant or neighbor signed. Sometimes the certified letters were returned ar unclaimed or refused.

Under the law, isn't something mailed to the owners address of record considered delivered if it is not returned?

Hi,

Our CC&R allow for first-class mail or personal delivery and consider the letter received 48-hours after it has been posted.

California state law only requires the following:

(g) When the board of directors is to meet to consider or impose discipline upon a member, the board shall notify the member in writing, by either personal delivery or first-class mail, at least 10 days prior to the meeting. The notification shall contain, at a minimum, the date, time, and place of the meeting, the nature of the alleged violation for which a member may be disciplined, and a statement that the member has a right to attend and may address the board at the meeting. The board of directors of the association shall meet in executive session if requested by the member being disciplined.

In the case of mediation, only the HOA is required to participate if the motion is initiated by a member. Mediation is mandatory for the civil court (limited and unlimited), but not for small claims. If one party refuses to show, then there should be another option. Our board refused mediation at first and that became something they could be fined for but it wasn't something we could have been fined for.

So I don't see a problem with the people in violation who wait too long. That's their own fault. I had certified letters refused and unclaimed by it was by our HOA board and that always looks bad. For the homeowner, it's a choice.

You might check your state codes.

Also this is one instance when having a membership list is important. In California, my understanding is that the owner is responsible for giving the board notice of his/her address of record. The board must use that address.

California state law and our CC&R don't require that there be proof of receipt. You might want proof it was sent and something like delivery confirmation or electronic tracking. I'd be leery of personal delivery for a hearing and violations unless you have someone who will keep track and time and date and fill out a proof of service type form, but still it might become a matter of who to believe in case the person denies having received the forms. Lawyers even do that with personal delivery.

PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708

Posted:

I fail to see how posting California law helps the OP. In fact it may just serve to confuse.

Florida laws regarding the mediation process are found in FLSS-720.311.

Here are some key points from the language:

1)Service of the statutory demand to participate in presuit mediation shall be effected by sending a letter in substantial conformity with the above form by certified mail, return receipt requested, with an additional copy being sent by regular first-class mail, to the address of the responding party as it last appears on the books and records of the association. The responding party has 20 days from the date of the mailing of the statutory demand to serve a response to the aggrieved party in writing. The response shall be served by certified mail, return receipt requested, with an additional copy being sent by regular first-class mail, to the address shown on the statutory demand.

2)In the event that you fail to respond within 20 days from the date of this letter, or if you fail to agree to at least one of the mediators that we have suggested or to pay or prepay to the mediator one-half of the costs involved, the aggrieved party will be authorized to proceed with the filing of a lawsuit against you without further notice and may seek an award of attorney’s fees or costs incurred in attempting to obtain mediation.

JayP3 (Florida)
Posts: 154

Posted:

After reading 720.311 it seems...

By sending it two ways (CRR & FC) you have followed due process.

In order to expect legal relief from the 20 day response requirement you would have to PROVE you were unable to receive your mail within this time frame.

Maybe incarceration?, hospitalization?, out-of-town/country?, etc. But this would only be after the fact.

You cannot simply ignore the fact that you have been notified and expect the problem to 'go away'.

Thus failure to pick mail up from box, or to answer the door, or similar attemps to dodge notification is just going to end up costing you more (should you fail to agree in mediation and lose the follow-up law suit).

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

I would follow the letter of state law and your own by-laws in serving notice. You are covered no matter your personal opinion that some communication methods are inferior or don't make much common sense. I've had the same thoughts but the law trumps. Property owners ignoring requests for mediation obviously don't want mediation, leaving you other options.

LisaF5 (Florida)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 05/26/2012 1:51 PM
Lisa

Please backup for me. A few questions.

1. What are the violations?

Violation is having a motorcycle on the property

2. Have the violators been notified and offered a chance to rectify the violation(s)?

Yes, homeowner has responded that he does not own a motorcycle, but he responded 30 days after the date of the letter. He is claiming that the board member who signed for the letter did not get it to him until a week after she accepted it. He's also claiming that a medical issue with his wife kept him away from home for an extended time, so he didn't get the mailed letter in reasonable time to respond in the 20 day window.

3. Have the violators been noticed they will be fined and has fining begun?

Yes, we did threaten fines, but have not enforced the threat.

4. What does the $300.00 charge from the HOA attorney buy/get?

The lawyer charges for one hour of time for each letter. That includes his research, knowledge and experience.

5. Who will be the mediator?

There is a professional mediation firm in our lawyer's complex. We give the homeowner a list of five mediators names and fees. The homeowner chooses the mediator.

Thanks for the clarifications.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Does your HOA have a fining schedule put into place and understood by all it's members? This is important. There is a HUGE unintentioned loophole by most HOA's out there in regards to fines. Most do allow the use of fining for violations, but fail to identify a proper schedule of fees/definition. That means the HOA has to have it written and distributed to it's members what is a violation and what it will cost you for being in violation. You may want to ask your attorney about this and where to put it in your documents. It may be in your by-laws or other documents.

Keep in mind that most states do NOT allow fines to be the basis of a lien or foreclosure. An area to ask your attorney as well. This can mean complete lacking of enforcement of fines to an educated homeowner who knows this information. Which then can result in a lawsuit situation.

Mediation is a good thing. Just make sure it's used in the right way and understood by all parties. Some mediation does NOT allow the situation to go to court. While others if it fails in mediation can go to the court. Find out this information out as well if it is binding or not. Although going to court over violation or collections in a small claims is NOT a winning proposition on either side. Liens/foreclosures are the best way for any HOA.

I would talk to your lawyer and get some more advise and definition of what your mediation process is really doing for you all. Seems this is something for discussion in a board meeting than in a mediation room.

Former HOA President

LisaF5 (Florida)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/27/2012 4:00 AM
Does your HOA have a fining schedule put into place and understood by all it's members? This is important. There is a HUGE unintentioned loophole by most HOA's out there in regards to fines. Most do allow the use of fining for violations, but fail to identify a proper schedule of fees/definition. That means the HOA has to have it written and distributed to it's members what is a violation and what it will cost you for being in violation. You may want to ask your attorney about this and where to put it in your documents. It may be in your by-laws or other documents.

Yes, we have a comittee who hears the owners excuses for why they should not be fined. Because our violator denies having a motorcycle, we were advised not to fine, but to file a lawsuit instead. The lawsuit was filed, the owner hid the motorcycle, and we were forced to drop the suit. Now he wants us to pay his legal fees and other "damages".

We are trying to stop this guy from breaking the rules. The other owners are claiming that we are "selectively enforcing" the rules and they should be able to have motorcycles too.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Lisa

Who advised not to fine by file a lawsuit? Might I make a guess who?

It seems to me your association may have put the cart before the horse.

LisaF5 (Florida)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Who advised not to fine by file a lawsuit? Might I make a guess who?

If your guess is the HOA laywer, you are correct. They are a longstanding, respected firm and they are experts on the newer 720 statutes.

LisaF5 (Florida)
Posts: 11

Posted:

That didn't sound right. The law firm has been working diligently to address the violations. We have been happy with their performance, but we have had extraordinary legal expenses and we're way over budget in that area. We're just trying get the individual homeowners to pay for the legal expenses that they directly caused.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I would shop around for lawyers. I am not happy with the information you've posted. There seems to be a disconnect of sorts here. As a person who's experienced in hiring lawyers and having a good understanding of the system, I have some doubts about your lawyer. It isn't that they aren't doing their best job. It may be they aren't doing the right job for you.

Former HOA President

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I read your response and think I see the issue better. You are going into mediation because of the results of a bad lawsuit the HOA brought against this owner. The lawsuit option was a really BAD idea to start with. Of course the lawyer is going to mention this as a solution. It's his job to do so. Nothing wrong there. It just isn't the correct solution. Plus the court costs should have been part of the suit on who pays what. That is the court decision.

Your HOA is a bit dependent on this lawyer. That is why the high bills. A regular problem with HOA's overly dependent on lawyers and/or management companies. I'd recommend doing a bit more research and reading your CC&R's closer. Most issues in a HOA are resolved internally and by it's own rules...

Former HOA President

LisaF5 (Florida)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/27/2012 8:58 AM
I read your response and think I see the issue better. You are going into mediation because of the results of a bad lawsuit the HOA brought against this owner. The lawsuit option was a really BAD idea to start with. Of course the lawyer is going to mention this as a solution. It's his job to do so. Nothing wrong there. It just isn't the correct solution. Plus the court costs should have been part of the suit on who pays what. That is the court decision.

...

Yes, the lawsuit may have been a bad idea, but we did drop it. But the homeowner didn't agree to mediation within the time limit set by the law. He did agree to mediation, but it was AFTER the 20 days. He feels entitled to damages. Doesn't the delayed response eliminate our liability for his costs? He didn't "WIN" the suit.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LisaF5 on 05/26/2012 11:50 AM
Thank you for the responsed. The letters are sent by our lawyer.

We are having difficulty enforcing the rules. We initially sent out violation letters, but most were ignored. Then whe had the laywers send out mediation requests (at $300 EACH letter). They are being ignored too. We have tried filing suit against a handful of violators, but owners keep using "selective enforcement" as a defense. Under Florida Statute 720, mediation is mandatory. Some of the owners are trying to recoup legal fees but they did not send timely responses to the mediation requests. I KNOW they got the lawyer letters, but they did not sign the green cards. Sometimes a tenant or neighbor signed. Sometimes the certified letters were returned ar unclaimed or refused.

Under the law, isn't something mailed to the owners address of record considered delivered if it is not returned?

I quoted California state laws, because I thought Lisa should be looking at her state's laws that someone then posted.

As long as the board fulfills the elements required, then the board has done due diligence. Having a tenant/neighbor sign is similar to having a responsible adult sign. The law requires postal service two different ways and the board has done that, then the board has fulfilled those elements. The state law isn't requiring the person being served as in small claims/civil court.

I'm curious as to why the selective enforcement was a successful defense. If this was in small claims court, and the judge made a mistake of law, you can challenge that. Many small claims court judges do not know CID law.

Those mediation requests are a bit pricey. Couldn't you make a standard form? I'm wondering if you're depending upon the lawyers for mediation as well. Our county provides free mediation.

How much are the legal fees that the owners are trying to get compensation for?

I think it would help to know just what the violations were. Why or if you really needed an attorney. And what kind of mediation options your HOA has used and has available. We used an attorney, but it was really our last option.

To date, our HOA has NOT consulted with an attorney.

JayP3 (Florida)
Posts: 154

Posted:

There's alot of misquoted issues and distracting speculation in this thread.

Has anyone read the statute 720.311? Not sure but doesn't appear so.

JM10:
It was never stated that the MEDIATION request was sent out both ways.
Violation notices were mentioned but that will not suffice for a Mediation Request.

Having a neighbor sign for the letter maybe SIMILAR in some ways to you but fortunately the law does not allow this. A tennant (roommate?) is another thing but if the owner does not reside there then the notice was sent incorrectly. If any resident at the address of the owner signs then notice has been delivered.

Melissa:

Florida HOA/Condo statutes requires [attempted at least] mediation/arbitration BEFORE a suit will be heard by a judge. Not the other way around. So it can't be misused.

Lisa:

Selective enforcement is very difficult to prove. It sounds more like the HOA is reluctant to pursue rather then they have been successful.

You need to ask better questions of your counsel or find a different lawyer (second opinion).

If finances are an issue then pick better battles.

If other homeowners want motorcycles then that should be addressed. Maybe you could have avoided all this.

LisaF5 (Florida)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Quote:

I'm curious as to why the selective enforcement was a successful defense. If this was in small claims court, and the judge made a mistake of law, you can challenge that. Many small claims court judges do not know CID law.

Those mediation requests are a bit pricey. Couldn't you make a standard form? I'm wondering if you're depending upon the lawyers for mediation as well. Our county provides free mediation.

How much are the legal fees that the owners are trying to get compensation for?

I think it would help to know just what the violations were. Why or if you really needed an attorney. And what kind of mediation options your HOA has used and has available. We used an attorney, but it was really our last option.

The selective enforcement is used because we do allows SOME owners to have a motorcycle, but only if they are registerd with the HOA. The former president did let of lot of things slide and we are now paying the price for her lax actions.

The motorcyle violation was civil, not small claims. We dropped because we couldn't prove the owner had a motorcycle and his attorney threatened us to sue for filing a meritless suit. He never followed through with the threat, most likely because we are confident that there is a motorcycle in that unit. The homeowner claims his legal fees were about 7k and he provided a questionable statement from his shady lawyer.

The other violations that other homeowners are committing include parking in guest spots, leaving trash cans out, operating businesses, sattellite dishes,
and having vicous pets. There are many violators and we can't send letters to everyone at once without taking a serious bit out of our budget.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Lisa

So the whole issue is not having a motorcycle but the fact that he did not register it with the HOA. Am I correct?

JayP3 (Florida)
Posts: 154

Posted:

I'd like to know how you proceeded to a law suit for convenant enforcement without first going to mediation/arbitration as has been the FL HOA law since 6/2007?

The first sentence of 720.311(2)(a):
'Disputes between an association and a parcel owner regarding use of or changes to the parcel or the common areas and other covenant enforcement disputes, disputes regarding amendments to the association documents, disputes regarding meetings of the board and committees appointed by the board, membership meetings not including election meetings, and access to the official records of the association shall be the subject of a demand for presuit mediation served by an aggrieved party before the dispute is filed in court.'...

It seems the accused party must have ignored the demand and then you with to trial.
Something is very confusing about all of this.

PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708

Posted:

" The other violations that other homeowners are committing include parking in guest spots, leaving trash cans out, operating businesses, sattellite dishes,
and having vicous pets."

You need to be cautious about some of these. Not to say you should turn a blind eye but unless you have very specific language in your docs. you're playing with your wallet.

The last three especially.

LisaF5 (Florida)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JayP3 on 05/27/2012 11:45 AM
I'd like to know how you proceeded to a law suit for convenant enforcement without first going to mediation/arbitration as has been the FL HOA law since 6/2007?

Something is very confusing about all of this.

The homeowner responded AFTER the 20 day window had closed. We treated the late response as a refusal to participate.

NO motorcyles are allowed according to the CRRs. The previous president made an exception for a few owners, but we stopped that as soon as she was gone. We will eventually request mediation for the excepted motorcycle owners.

The violator in question was NOT on the former president's "special" list.

PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708

Posted:

Why not ask the membership if they want to continue a ban on motorcycles?

If not move to ammend the CC&Rs.

It may surpeise you and would definately save alot of money.

JayP3 (Florida)
Posts: 154

Posted:

Ahh Pete.

Our resident libertarian!

Hip, Hip, Hooraaaaa.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

PeterD is correct in his post. Motorcycles should be allowed and updated in the CC&R's to reflect that. It would the noise issue of them that would need to be addressed instead. Like no working on them between 8 am to 10 pm etc...The economy the way it is more people are going to motorcycles or Scooters.

I am confused to why the HOA is asking for mediation? This guy wants his money back and according to one poster mediation has to happen first in Florida prior to court. However, again he will face the costs of mediation added onto his existing bill. The HOA should have responded to HIS request for negotion.

It is much cheaper to counter sue than to sue for a HOA. Your lawyer won't tell you that. He probably said something along the lines "Well you all can sue the owner if you want to enforce the violation. I will file the case if that's what you all decide"...Is that the conversation you all had prior? Your HOA just then agreed as the lawyer told you this. Hence the pickle you are all in now. Selective enforcement should have been darned...

This guy has a case if he decides to sue. The court can ONLY make one "WHOLE". Meaning he wouldn't have been out this money if the HOA didn't take the action they did. The SAME argument the HOA would have if it is sued. If this had gone to court the legal fees would have been decided in the court who pays. The lawyers would have to request each party pays their own costs or one party pays all of the fees. The judge decides that answer. It could have been each their own.

The option the HOA has is to prepare to counter sue if mediation falls through when the OTHER party brings it. Next time, if someone threatens to sue, just tell them to go ahead and request the mediation. Put the burden on them. Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. (Everyone knows I post that alot). Just have your lawyer draft a response and have their fees as the amount for the counter suit. Your lawyer just might have figured ya smartened up a bit if you do that...LOL..

Former HOA President

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/27/2012 5:33 PM
PeterD is correct in his post. Motorcycles should be allowed and updated in the CC&R's to reflect that. It would the noise issue of them that would need to be addressed instead. Like no working on them between 8 am to 10 pm etc...The economy the way it is more people are going to motorcycles or Scooters.

I am confused to why the HOA is asking for mediation? This guy wants his money back and according to one poster mediation has to happen first in Florida prior to court. However, again he will face the costs of mediation added onto his existing bill. The HOA should have responded to HIS request for negotion.

It is much cheaper to counter sue than to sue for a HOA. Your lawyer won't tell you that. He probably said something along the lines "Well you all can sue the owner if you want to enforce the violation. I will file the case if that's what you all decide"...Is that the conversation you all had prior? Your HOA just then agreed as the lawyer told you this. Hence the pickle you are all in now. Selective enforcement should have been darned...

This guy has a case if he decides to sue. The court can ONLY make one "WHOLE". Meaning he wouldn't have been out this money if the HOA didn't take the action they did. The SAME argument the HOA would have if it is sued. If this had gone to court the legal fees would have been decided in the court who pays. The lawyers would have to request each party pays their own costs or one party pays all of the fees. The judge decides that answer. It could have been each their own.

The option the HOA has is to prepare to counter sue if mediation falls through when the OTHER party brings it. Next time, if someone threatens to sue, just tell them to go ahead and request the mediation. Put the burden on them. Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. (Everyone knows I post that alot). Just have your lawyer draft a response and have their fees as the amount for the counter suit. Your lawyer just might have figured ya smartened up a bit if you do that...LOL..

Well said.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LisaF5 on 05/27/2012 11:28 AM

The selective enforcement is used because we do allows SOME owners to have a motorcycle, but only if they are registerd with the HOA. The former president did let of lot of things slide and we are now paying the price for her lax actions.

The motorcyle violation was civil, not small claims. We dropped because we couldn't prove the owner had a motorcycle and his attorney threatened us to sue for filing a meritless suit. He never followed through with the threat, most likely because we are confident that there is a motorcycle in that unit. The homeowner claims his legal fees were about 7k and he provided a questionable statement from his shady lawyer.

The other violations that other homeowners are committing include parking in guest spots, leaving trash cans out, operating businesses, sattellite dishes,
and having vicous pets. There are many violators and we can't send letters to everyone at once without taking a serious bit out of our budget.

I'm with Peter on this. You took people to court just because they had motorcycles?

Why was this considered serious enough to go to court? I agree with people who said this seemed outdated. In this economy with the price of gas going up, motorcycles make sense. What is the real issue? Noise?

As for working on the motorcycle, I think many CID have CC&R against working on cars so that would apply to motorcycles as well. I wondered if your CC&R also precludes electric bikes and mopeds.

If you can't prove the owner has a motorcycle, then the problem isn't noise, is it? The attorney threatened to sue for filing the suit, but since you dropped it, his client can't actually countersue.

From all this, I'd say the board made few wrong decisions. That selective enforcement would be the first one. Once that was done, the HOA was on shaky ground. Registration with the HOA for a motorcycle seems extreme to me as well. Outlawing motorcycles in your HOA seems extreme, especially since I'm guessing this isn't something that would apply to the community outside your HOA. I'd ask the membership if this is important at all.

I'd also check and see what your CC&R and state law say about prevailing party and payment for mediation. If you are wrong about that motorcycle, then I can easily see why that person wants to be reimbursed for the $7k. As you already admit to selective enforcement, I can see why that person would be mad even if he/she has one.

Parking in guest spots...sure that's a problem that should be pursued, but towing is a pretty easy solution if you do it in an orderly fashion and without being selective. I'm guessing that if your former president has a special list for motorcycles, she also had one for parking as well. I'd find guest parking more important because it is likely to cause friction between neighbors. I know it did in our small condo community because only special friends of the treasurer were allowed to park in guest spots.

For all of these violations, letters of notification, hearings and violations shouldn't have to be from a lawyer. I'd really ask the membership: What things are really important? What things are outdated?

By vicious pets, this is a concern for your animal control and should meet the definitions (state, county and/or city) of vicious animal. Make sure it's not just the judgment of a layperson or your HOA will be in real trouble. Or rather, more legal trouble.

Do any of these violations endanger other residents, drop property value or cause ill will?

LisaF5 (Florida)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JM10 on 05/27/2012 7:51 PM

Posted By LisaF5 on 05/27/2012 11:28 AM

I'm with Peter on this. You took people to court just because they had motorcycles?

Why was this considered serious enough to go to court? I agree with people who said this seemed outdated. In this economy with the price of gas going up, motorcycles make sense. What is the real issue? Noise?

As for working on the motorcycle, I think many CID have CC&R against working on cars so that would apply to motorcycles as well. I wondered if your CC&R also precludes electric bikes and mopeds.

If you can't prove the owner has a motorcycle, then the problem isn't noise, is it? The attorney threatened to sue for filing the suit, but since you dropped it, his client can't actually countersue.

From all this, I'd say the board made few wrong decisions. That selective enforcement would be the first one. Once that was done, the HOA was on shaky ground. Registration with the HOA for a motorcycle seems extreme to me as well. Outlawing motorcycles in your HOA seems extreme, especially since I'm guessing this isn't something that would apply to the community outside your HOA. I'd ask the membership if this is important at all.

I'd also check and see what your CC&R and state law say about prevailing party and payment for mediation. If you are wrong about that motorcycle, then I can easily see why that person wants to be reimbursed for the $7k. As you already admit to selective enforcement, I can see why that person would be mad even if he/she has one.

Do any of these violations endanger other residents, drop property value or cause ill will?

We took people to court because they did not respond to the mediation request in the required timeframe. In the past, letters sent from our management company were ignored by the homeowners. Now we send mediation requests through the lawyers instead.

Many of the homeowners will stop the violations and respond to the mediation requests. We are trying to pass the message the non-compliant owners that ignoring the mediation request WILL result in an expensive lawsuit.

We are tryimg to make the community nice and keep the property values up. The rules were designed for that purpose. Having satellite dishes, broken down vehicles, vicious dogs and even motorcycles on the property decreases the propery values for everyone.

JayP3 (Florida)
Posts: 154

Posted:

"We are tryimg to make the community nice and keep the property values up. The rules were designed for that purpose. Having satellite dishes, broken down vehicles, vicious dogs and even motorcycles on the property decreases the propery values for everyone."

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion but where are the facts to support your fears?

I take exception to everything in the statement above sans the broken down vehicles.

First the satellite dishes... they are protected by federal law. You may wish to review the following link: http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule.
Yes there can be restrictions depending on your type of dwelling but not a ban.

Vicious dogs come in all breeds so you'll need to be more specific in your attempts to limit them. I've been around them all from Chihuahua to Great Danes and could not fortell which are vicious or not by breed alone.

Motorcycles lower property values? Please post a link to your information. I find the statement ignorant at face value.

Be prepared to throw more of your member's money at these issues with no tangible return.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Lisa

At first you had me going in like making a case for your point of view.

Motorcycles can be a valid subject of controversy and while under the right circumstances, I could agree with about such, you adding satellite dishes to the mix indicates to me that you might well be out of touch with todays reality even when one does not like/agree with them.

I think you have to move to/accept the 21st Century, even if you need to be dragged and screaming into it...LOL

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 05/28/2012 7:39 PM
Lisa

At first you had me going in like making a case for your point of view.

Motorcycles can be a valid subject of controversy and while under the right circumstances, I could agree with about such, you adding satellite dishes to the mix indicates to me that you might well be out of touch with todays reality even when one does not like/agree with them.

I think you have to move to/accept the 21st Century, even if you need to be dragged and screaming into it...LOL

Agree! Agree! Agree!

This whole thread arose because the HOA accused an owner of having a motorcycle on the property (the Horror!) when numerous others also did. The owner said it was not his and it was no longer on the property, so the HOA sued him for not keeping the motorcycle that he did not own on the property. That's the case, isn't it?

Oh, wait! I overlooked the part about the board member intercepting the mediation notice so the HOA could accuse the owner of failing to respond.

Gee, I wonder why most homeowners choose to live outside of an HOA?

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 05/28/2012 7:39 PM
Lisa

At first you had me going in like making a case for your point of view.

Motorcycles can be a valid subject of controversy and while under the right circumstances, I could agree with about such, you adding satellite dishes to the mix indicates to me that you might well be out of touch with todays reality even when one does not like/agree with them.

I think you have to move to/accept the 21st Century, even if you need to be dragged and screaming into it...LOL

Sometimes there are "crank" owners but in this case the board is coming off like a "crank." I'm with Peter and JohnC46.

Thanks JohnC46 for the laugh.