HOA "Official Records" containing compensation

Some residents believe that the Pelican Landing Community Association (PLCA)Board is violating The florida Statute FS 720.303(5)(c)3 by refusing to supply "Official Records" identified in that statue that contain compensation information as doucments were supplied with that information removed. The residents are not not ineterest in the statutory monetary damages that could be obtained in an action against the PLCA in small claims court. They are interested in requiring the PLCA to provide the information requested by any memeber of the Association. Are their administrative procdures for handling this issue?

http://www.ccfjedu.net:80/HOAFS720.303-2010.htm

RAY EIFLER

Tim,

Did you overlook the last passage in the text you posted?

"...the term “personnel records” does not include written employment agreements with an association employee or budgetary or financial records that indicate the compensation paid to an association employee."

The members are entitled to know where every one of THEIR dollars go.

I KNOW THAT ONE APPROACH IS TO FILE A CLAIM IN SMALL CLAIMS COURT. BUT,ARE THERE ANY ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES AT THE FLORIDA STATE LEVEL?

TIM, YOU ARE IGNORING THE FACTS. THE FLORIDA STATUTE BELOW IDENTIFIES AN EXCEPTION TO AN EXCEPTION IN THAT EMPLOYMENT CONTRACTS AND JOB DESCRIPTIONS AND FINANCIAL DETAILS OF BUDGETS CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT THE MEMBERS OF THE ASSOCIATION ARE ENTITLED TO KNOW. THAT IS COMMON SENSE. WHY SHOULD THEY NOT KNOW HOW THEIR MONEY IS BEING SPENT? TRANSPARENCY PREVENTS FRAUD AND EXPOSES INCOMEPETENCY.
“personnel records” does not include written employment agreements with an association employee or budgetary or financial records that indicate the compensation paid to an association employee.

Ray,

The statutes describe the EXACT way to ask for document access.

If you feel the BoD may be ignorant to the law or otherwise uncooperative you need to follow this protocol so that you will have the law on 'your side' should legal action be needed.

In addition this 'starts the clock' limiting the time they have to respond and make the documents available to you.

In some cases this may come at an expense (reasonable) to you as well as costs for duplication.

Jay and Ray,

If you reread my post, you will see I did say to ask for financial records as those are to be provided. Ray wasn't clear in the initial post which records he had asked for.

Ray,

As I included in my post, you have limited options if the board wants to ignore your request. However you do have options. As I posted earlier, they are:

Meet with the Board and see if an agreement can be obtained.
Recall the Board.
Vote them out at the next election.
Call a meeting to amend a governing document.
Challenge the decision through the courts.

Ray I don't know how many employees you may have but you should have a copy of the budget at the very least. It should list it on a line item of some sort. From there you can derive an approximation.

Just because a lawyer says something doesn't make it defensable. If you are really interested get the "some people" together and jointly pursue it.

Some legal offices will give you a free consultation. Maybe you can see what your options are.

VERY good point PeterD3. Well done.

HERE ARE SOME MORE DETAILS: I REQUESTED THE EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT BETWEEN THE ASSOCIATION AND THE MANAGER AND THE SALARIES (COMPENSATION) OF SOME EMPLOYEES.THAT IS THE SPECIFIC INFORMATION REQUESTED AND THE ISSUE IS WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN THE ASSOCIATION VIOLATES THE FLORIDA HOQ STATUTE BY FAILING TO COMPLY WITH THE REQUEST FOR AN "OFFICIAL RECORD" OF THE ASSOCIATION. THE STATUTE ALSO SAYS FAILURE TO DO SO CARRYS A PENALTY 0F $50/DAY FOR 10 DAYS. I DON'T WANT THE MONEY, I WANT THE INFORMATION THAT THE ASSOCIATION REFUSES TO PROVIDE.
THE FLORIDA STATUE PROTECTS "PERSONNEL RECORDS", AND IT ALSO PROTECTS ASSOCIATION MEMBERS RIGHT TO FINANCIAL INFORMATION BY SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDING EMPLOYEE COMPENSATION FROM PERSONNEL RECORDS THAT ARE PROTECTED.
FURTHER ALL FINANCIAL INFORMATION IS PART OF THE "OFFICIAL RECORDS" OF THE ASSOCIATION AND BY STATUTE AVAILABE TO ALL MEMBERS WHO HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW HOW THEIR MONEY IS BEING SPENT.
I APPRECIATE ALL THE INTEREST BUT MY MAIN QUESTION WAS, ARE THEIR ANY STATE ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURES THAT MAY BE USEFUL OTHER THAN COURT PROCEEDINGS?
I DID NOT DEMAND EVERY PIECE OF PAPER THAT THE ASSOCIATION HAS I JUST REQUESTED A FEW DOCUMENTS FROM THE CATEGORY OF "OFFICIAL RECORDS" WHICH THE STATUTE REQUIRES THE ASSOCIATION TO PROVIDE A MEMBER. EVERY MEMEBER OF THE ASSOCIATION HAS A RIGHT TO THE "OFFICIAL RECORDS" SO IT CAN SEE HOW THE MONEY COLLECTED IS BEING SPENT. OUR ASSOCIATION COLLECTS OVER $5,000,000 A YEAR FROM ITS MEMBERS. THE FACT THAT THE ASSOCIATION REFUSES TO PROVIDE THE INFORMATION REQUESTED MAY LEAD MANY MEMBERS TO QUESTION THE MOTIVES OF THE BOARD AND ALSO QUESTION ALL OF THE SUBJECTS YOU MENTIONED. BOTTOM LINE, COMPENSATION PAID IS INFORMATION THAT ASSOCIATION MEMBERS ARE ENTILTED TO KNOW,BUT NOT MORE "PERSONAL" INFORMATION e.g., dependants, health information,etc.FURTHER, THE BUDGET INFORMATION SUPPLIED TO THE ASSOCIATION MEMBERS DID NOT INCLUDE THE INDIVIAUAL SALARIES, ONLY A GROSS NUMBER.INDIVIUDAL SALARIES ARE PART OF THE "OFFICIAL RECORDS" OF THE ASSOCIATION.HERE IS THE STATUTE AGAIN:
http://www.ccfjedu.net:80/HOAFS720.303-2010.htm
See section 720.303(5)(c)(3):

As you know there are civil laws and criminal laws. Criminal laws are usually enforced by the State. Civil laws are usually enforced by the individuals involved through the court system. Since contracts, hoa/coa laws and corporate laws are considered civil laws, there is typically limited governmental authorities to "oversee" or enforce those laws.

Some States, including FL, have started making ombudsman offices to try and deal with these issues outside of the courts. Typically, the ombudsman has limited power as they are not part of the judicial system and may or may not be able to assist.

Sure the State corporation commission may fine you for not filing the annual report on time. The IRS will certainly go after the Association for failing to file taxes. The District Attorney will prosecute if criminal laws are broken (example embezzlement). However if the Association doesn't comply with the Bylaws or a civil law, it's up to the membership to hold the Board accountable. The easiest way would be to recall the board or not reelect them to the Board. The more expensive option is to go through the court system.

As I understand it, in FL, the Office of the Condominium Ombudsman, can assist if you are in a condominium, timeshare or mobile home park. Unfortunately, the FL legislature did not give that office authority for other HOA's. Depending on the authority they have, they may or may not be able to assist you. Click the link and contact their office to find out.

Good luck.

Tim

Ray,

PLEASE KEEP FROM USING ALL CAPITAL LETTERS ALL THE TIME, most people find it difficult to read (I know I do).

As I board member, I am at a loss to understand the motives behind members not participating in an organization that directly affects many aspects of their lives. Many never even vote when asked to do so. Far, Far, fewer volunteer to serve on committees or the Board. Far less attend board meetings to understand why decisions are made. Perhaps, had they attended meetings, they would have been able to provide an option the board never considered.

Unfortunately, many members just ignore the Association. They pay their assessments and don't bother to get involved unless an issue directly affects them. Far to often the first experience a member has is with a violation enforcement or Assessment payments. Because they paid no attention prior to this experience, the member gets a sour opinion of Associations in general and typically, at their board collectively.

As you said, those who are most qualified are sometimes the least willing. However, even those who are not qualified aren't always willing. However, sometimes it's those who are less qualified who are willing to roll up their sleeves and learn the job they volunteered to do.

In Associations, the members do get the board they elect. This is true. However, it would be more appropriate to say the members get the Board they elect from the choice of all volunteers who are willing to run.

This is why it's imperative that the members become active from day one and remain active within the development and actually take an interest in how the Association is governed. If apathy sets in (and, unfortunately it does), it becomes that much more difficult to change things when issues are discovered and few members who failed to volunteer are willing to take their share of the blame.

Ray - I truly wish you luck. I believe everyone on this forum agrees that it's wrong for your board to not provide the information you requested. Other than moral support, it's up to you and your fellow members to correct the issue - either through elections or the court system.

Tim

Ray,

I hereby acknowledge your right.

May you live long in health and prosperity and make the changes you see are needed within your Association.

Tim

Tony,

I'll suggest the same thing to you that I suggested to Ray, please read the posting rules of this forum. Specifically #3: (3) No Mention of Community/Company/Person Names.

That said, if there are no employees, don't ask for "employee contracts." Simply ask to review all existing contracts the Association has in place with any and all individuals or companies providing a service to the Association.

Since you are also in FL, I don't know what else to add that wasn't posted a year ago. Perhaps others have additional information.

No problem.

Since your Association is using a contractor to provide the people to help run your Association, getting a copy of the contract won't tell you how much the "employees" are making. However, it will tell you how much your Association is paying for the pleasure of having x number of people assigned to your Association.