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use of community pool for baptism immersions

Started by JeanI • 15 replies • 2305 views

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JeanI (Louisiana)
Posts: 112
Posted:
I am a Board member in a 55+ homeowners association community. Recently we received a request from one member of the community who is pastor at a local church for permission to use our community pool for baptism immersions for his newly created congregation. The baptisms are for young people in his congregation who do not live in our senior development. The pastor describes this as a worship service and not a fun swim. They offered to pay rental, insurance and cleaning fees. The service will be once a month and take approximately one hour.

Your thoughts are appreciated. Mary
FredB4 (Ohio)
Posts: 375
Posted:
Could be a way to earn a couple of extra bucks in fees but really you should be asking the other members of your association how they feel about what could be an inconvenience. Also you need to check your documents to see if it would be allowed.
You don't really indicate the number of people,what "clean up" they are talking about, the time of day or if the amount of money involved might be worth the inconvenience.
DavidW5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 565
Posted:
Our association decided not to go down that road at all. Following a request by a group to hold bible study sessions in one of the clubhouse meeting rooms, the board voted not to sanction any religious or political activities in any common area. We are a 55 and over community that is very diverse ethnically, religously and politically and it was felt that this was the best course of action.
CarolF (Florida)
Posts: 435
Posted:
Check with your insurance agent to determine if using the pool for people outside of the members of the association would void your insurance.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidW5 on 04/28/2012 12:14 PM
Our association decided not to go down that road at all. Following a request by a group to hold bible study sessions in one of the clubhouse meeting rooms, the board voted not to sanction any religious or political activities in any common area. We are a 55 and over community that is very diverse ethnically, religously and politically and it was felt that this was the best course of action.

Smart moves.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
I'm with DavidW. Such a use would be inappropriate at best unless you have a monolithically religious community.
LawrenceC1 (Georgia)
Posts: 480
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeanI on 04/28/2012 10:50 AM
They offered to pay rental, insurance and cleaning fees.


Mary,

Once you start charging fees for non-member access to your pool, you come under the provisions of the latest version of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). This means you become a "public facility" under their guidelines, and must provide for handicapped access -- either an ADA-compliant lift or a ramp.

Most HOA pools are exempt from this as long as they limit access to the pool exclusively to memebers and guests accompanied by memebers.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:

If the community if small enough to have some direct engagement - or a fair amount of it - then have the pastor/dues payer present his plan at an open meeting and invite public comment. Work openly and transparently. It may not be controversial at all. Given this is private property, public property considerations on speech restrictions are moot.

For me, the biggest question is exclusivity of pool use during the one hour per month time window and how interferes with pool operations. How much "rent" are we talking? Is the church wanting exclusive use for one hour or can other dues payers have access? Outside of that, we're talking no more of an event that throwing a small party at the pool or clubhouse on a monthly basis by renting it.

The board deciding whether political or religiously-inspired events (properly requested through HOA Board operations) are "appropriate" is meddling. Any dues payer should feel they can request facilities use to better their living experience. So what if the Republicans rent the place if the Democrats can do the same under the same guidelines during convenient times?

The HOA sets the rules, regulates and can re-assess at any time. With the pastor offering to clean the pool area and obtain insurance in addition adding revenue to the community, it's worth a open meeting discussion because that rent could fund new pool furniture, umbrellas, future maintenance - without affecting 99.9% of the community.

Shutting down all faith or political expression because one group requests access is taking political correction overboard. Just be open and transparent with all.

I'd talk it through and listen to all who care to chime in. It's your private property and your dealings with a dues payer. Nothing public about it.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
Well I'm not from a bible belt part of the country. However religious OR political meetings are not we call inclusive activities. Not like, for example, a community picnic. I think many people would not want any religious activities, but still might be reluctant to publicly say so. I think there is little upside and substantial downside to allowing this sort of thing.

It is possible to forget that we are not all Christian in this country, indeed not even all Judeo-Christian.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredS7 on 04/29/2012 2:24 PM
Well I'm not from a bible belt part of the country. However religious OR political meetings are not we call inclusive activities. Not like, for example, a community picnic. I think many people would not want any religious activities, but still might be reluctant to publicly say so. I think there is little upside and substantial downside to allowing this sort of thing.

It is possible to forget that we are not all Christian in this country, indeed not even all Judeo-Christian.

Well said.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
The logistics of the request should be weighed, first, against pool access and usage. Our HOA could not grant such a request for exclusive use of the pool because we won't close pool access to members in favor of rentals. But, a pastor's belief system shouldn't be used to penalize him. Community opposition SHOULD be weighed if it rears itself. No, you can't count the silent ones. There's no respect in that.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
As others have said, it's not a simple request. It's a fair request but not a simple one.

As has been posted, the Board should check with the Insurance company about applicable insurance coverage. They should check with the attorney to see what impact other laws may have if the pool is rented out to nonmembers. They should also have an attorney review the rental agreement to minimize the Associations exposure.

Then the board can weigh the benefits (rental income - which is taxable) against the risks and inconveniences.

JeanI (Louisiana)
Posts: 112
Posted:
I am interested as to how you came to this conclusion. Please cite the applicable ADA provisions you are referring to. Thank you. JMI
LawrenceC1 (Georgia)
Posts: 480
Posted:
Jean,

The link that Tim posted is good. Here is another that talks about recent changes that affect homeowners associations in particular.

What our attorney told us that as long as we limited access to homeowners or guests accompanied by homeowners we were not subject to the ADA provisions. But if we rented out the pool we became a "public facility", even if one of the group that rented the pool was a homeowner. As a public facility, we had to conform to the new ADA guidelines.

The Justice Department views a homeowners association as being right on the boundary of requiring compliance with the guidelines. Any little thing that an HOA does to move in the direction of a public facility puts it over that line.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LawrenceC1 on 05/01/2012 6:02 PM
Jean,

The link that Tim posted is good. Here is another that talks about recent changes that affect homeowners associations in particular.

What our attorney told us that as long as we limited access to homeowners or guests accompanied by homeowners we were not subject to the ADA provisions. But if we rented out the pool we became a "public facility", even if one of the group that rented the pool was a homeowner. As a public facility, we had to conform to the new ADA guidelines.

The Justice Department views a homeowners association as being right on the boundary of requiring compliance with the guidelines. Any little thing that an HOA does to move in the direction of a public facility puts it over that line.

This as I and one other HOA understands the issue.

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