NancyP8 (Florida)
Posts: 4
Posts: 4
Posted:
From Florida.....Can a resident living in a HOA request to see the file, kept at the Community Association Managers office, of another resident of the HOA?
Nancy
Nancy
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Residents files in HOA
Started by NancyP8 • 11 replies • 1776 views
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TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Hi Nancy,
This issue has been brought up many times in the past. In most States (FL included) members have a right to review the Association records. However, Associations must couple this right with another members right to privacy. Some States have tried to clarify what a members right to privacy includes, some States have not. Even in those States that have tried to clarify, the State has typically left the actual decision up to the Board by saying things like "the association may withhold x,y and z documents. Using the term "may" makes it the boards option.
IF your Association is incorporated, FL 617.1601 defines what the minimum requirements are for corporate records. FL 617.1602 specifies a members right to inspect those records. Per that statute:
(3) A member may inspect and copy the records described in subsection (2) only if:
(a) The member’s demand is made in good faith and for a proper purpose;
(b) The member describes with reasonable particularity his or her purpose and the records he or she desires to inspect;
(c) The records are directly connected with the member’s purpose.
(7) For purposes of this section, a “proper purpose” means a purpose reasonably related to such person’s interest as a member.
The bottom line is that an Association must do what is legal. Privacy rights become gray areas for Associations and most will error on the side of caution and withhold individual lot information of other members. Example: as a member you certainly have a right to know that x members are x days behind in assessments. However, it would be difficult for someone to identify a "proper purpose" to see if your neighbor is one of those behind on assessments.
If you were denied permission to build a shed but your neighbor has one, it would certainly be reasonable to know why. However, that could be done without the need to show you the Associations architectural file for the neighbors property.
Are you trying to see another persons file or are you the other person who is upset because a neighbor saw your file?
If your asking to see the file - would you be willing to share why?
Tim
This issue has been brought up many times in the past. In most States (FL included) members have a right to review the Association records. However, Associations must couple this right with another members right to privacy. Some States have tried to clarify what a members right to privacy includes, some States have not. Even in those States that have tried to clarify, the State has typically left the actual decision up to the Board by saying things like "the association may withhold x,y and z documents. Using the term "may" makes it the boards option.
IF your Association is incorporated, FL 617.1601 defines what the minimum requirements are for corporate records. FL 617.1602 specifies a members right to inspect those records. Per that statute:
(3) A member may inspect and copy the records described in subsection (2) only if:
(a) The member’s demand is made in good faith and for a proper purpose;
(b) The member describes with reasonable particularity his or her purpose and the records he or she desires to inspect;
(c) The records are directly connected with the member’s purpose.
(7) For purposes of this section, a “proper purpose” means a purpose reasonably related to such person’s interest as a member.
The bottom line is that an Association must do what is legal. Privacy rights become gray areas for Associations and most will error on the side of caution and withhold individual lot information of other members. Example: as a member you certainly have a right to know that x members are x days behind in assessments. However, it would be difficult for someone to identify a "proper purpose" to see if your neighbor is one of those behind on assessments.
If you were denied permission to build a shed but your neighbor has one, it would certainly be reasonable to know why. However, that could be done without the need to show you the Associations architectural file for the neighbors property.
Are you trying to see another persons file or are you the other person who is upset because a neighbor saw your file?
If your asking to see the file - would you be willing to share why?
Tim
NancyP8 (Florida)
Posts: 4
Posts: 4
Posted:
Tim, Thanks for the reply. A resident received a violation letter for publishing the community's gate code to a group of outside residents that were coming to his home. The association has a process for letting visitors into our community with a call box at the gate where residents can be called and then they let the guest in. So a violation letter was sent out. Now, another resident want to know if a violation letter went out. I don't think this is anyone's business except the violator and the property manager/BOD's. So I was wondering if this nosy resident can request in writing, accesses to the violator's file in which they would find a copy of the violation notice. However, you have brought up a good point as to "proper purpose". I don't see how this resident could give a acceptable reason as to why they want this info except to say "I pay my dues and I have a right to know". And as to your shed example, I agree that if a resident is allowed a shed and the next resident is not, an explanation is in order.
Nancy
Nancy
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Nancy,
When my association receives "written" complaints about potential violations, the Board or committee always replies to the written complaint. The letter is simple an too the point -
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. The Association has looked into the issue and determined that a violation does (or does not) exist.
If a violation exists, we just state that the Association will take follow the enforcement procedures.
If a violation doesn't exist, we try to give an explanation as to why the violation doesn't exist by citing appropriate sections of the governing documents. This allows us an opportunity to clear up any misunderstandings.
Anyone who contacts the Association verbally are simply told that we will look into it but to please put the complaint/allegation in writing. If they ask why, we explain that part of the enforcement procedure requires documentation if a hearing is held. Some will put the complaint in writing, some will withdraw the complaint.
When my association receives "written" complaints about potential violations, the Board or committee always replies to the written complaint. The letter is simple an too the point -
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. The Association has looked into the issue and determined that a violation does (or does not) exist.
If a violation exists, we just state that the Association will take follow the enforcement procedures.
If a violation doesn't exist, we try to give an explanation as to why the violation doesn't exist by citing appropriate sections of the governing documents. This allows us an opportunity to clear up any misunderstandings.
Anyone who contacts the Association verbally are simply told that we will look into it but to please put the complaint/allegation in writing. If they ask why, we explain that part of the enforcement procedure requires documentation if a hearing is held. Some will put the complaint in writing, some will withdraw the complaint.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Only if it is okay if someone can see yours...
Former HOA President
TheI (Florida)
Posts: 40
Posts: 40
Posted:
TimB4 - Under Fl Statute 720.303(5) inspection and copying of records, an owner does not need to say why they want to see the records, they do not need to state a purpose. The records are open to all owners. They just need to send a certified letter stating they want to see the records and the records have to be shown with in 10 business days or the association could face a fine of $50/day.
As to getting to see a specific violation letter Fl Statute says 720.303(4)(l) All other written records of the association not specifically included in the foregoing which are related to the operation of the association.
It is the interpretation of this statute that may or may not include violation letters.
As to getting to see a specific violation letter Fl Statute says 720.303(4)(l) All other written records of the association not specifically included in the foregoing which are related to the operation of the association.
It is the interpretation of this statute that may or may not include violation letters.
NancyP8 (Florida)
Posts: 4
Posts: 4
Posted:
TheI, thanks for your response.....I'll
have to check with our attorney.
Nancy
have to check with our attorney.
Nancy
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
were i on the board with that request, I would reply with something similar to this:
The events in question were taken up by the board and appropriate actions were implemented with the parties responsible.
The events in question were taken up by the board and appropriate actions were implemented with the parties responsible.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Nancy
I can only speak from my personal HOA experience which is as an owner in 5 HOA's and on the BOD of 3 of them in 4 states.
There are no "individual personal" files ala J. Edger Hoover "secret files"on individuasls. Me saying that, does not mean it has never happened.
Now if one has a question about what is happening then one should ask the question but once the details become personally specific, then expect vague answers until it becomes a "public" issue.
Allow me to offer several explanations:
1. A homeowners writes a letter complaining about another homeowner. The BOD knows nothing. Is the letter writer a "flake" (from Chief Complaining Office whom they already may know of) or is the letter real and the violation real? Is there truly a violation? Would you suggest they publically announce all they know (noting more then an accusing letter) or they quietly "investigate" the issue before taking any action? Like the age old. Do you still beat your wife? Yes or no. Never did answer not allowed.
2. Homeowners are behind on their dues. Should they be drawn and quartered in public or should the BOD try and reach an agreement before announcing who the dead beats are?
I think you have a specific issue and rather then explain and ask for advice, you are being vague. Do not be vague. Lay it out and ask for advice. Does not mean you have to take the advice offerred, not all do. Shall I name names....LOL
I can only speak from my personal HOA experience which is as an owner in 5 HOA's and on the BOD of 3 of them in 4 states.
There are no "individual personal" files ala J. Edger Hoover "secret files"on individuasls. Me saying that, does not mean it has never happened.
Now if one has a question about what is happening then one should ask the question but once the details become personally specific, then expect vague answers until it becomes a "public" issue.
Allow me to offer several explanations:
1. A homeowners writes a letter complaining about another homeowner. The BOD knows nothing. Is the letter writer a "flake" (from Chief Complaining Office whom they already may know of) or is the letter real and the violation real? Is there truly a violation? Would you suggest they publically announce all they know (noting more then an accusing letter) or they quietly "investigate" the issue before taking any action? Like the age old. Do you still beat your wife? Yes or no. Never did answer not allowed.
2. Homeowners are behind on their dues. Should they be drawn and quartered in public or should the BOD try and reach an agreement before announcing who the dead beats are?
I think you have a specific issue and rather then explain and ask for advice, you are being vague. Do not be vague. Lay it out and ask for advice. Does not mean you have to take the advice offerred, not all do. Shall I name names....LOL
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Nancy
Add on.
I was never an owner nor on the BOD of any association in FL.
I believe FL has gone overboard in their association regulations. They have made so many regulations that they conflict with each other. This results in confusion for all, the ability for many to "show/prove" they are right, and in the long game only makes for billable hours by attorneys.
FL association living is one place high on my list to avoid living in.
Add on.
I was never an owner nor on the BOD of any association in FL.
I believe FL has gone overboard in their association regulations. They have made so many regulations that they conflict with each other. This results in confusion for all, the ability for many to "show/prove" they are right, and in the long game only makes for billable hours by attorneys.
FL association living is one place high on my list to avoid living in.
NancyP8 (Florida)
Posts: 4
Posts: 4
Posted:
JohnC46, I take exception to your inference that I am being vague. I explained the situation as it is in my post above. To answer your point one….if a complaint is received UNSIGNED and it has to do with wife beating that is a police matter not an association matter. We don’t go knocking on someone’s door for a complaint that is inside the 4 walls of a residents home. If the complaint is ARC related, we can visibly confirm the violation and would take further action if needed. Your point 2 is something that I believe ALL associations and condos are dealing with these days because of the situation in the housing market and the economy in general. We always try to work with owners who are behind is dues and work with them. But you being on the board of directions 3 times should know that there are people you just can’t work with.
I stated the facts and I would never enter this forum and state otherwise. I have a lot of respect for this web site.
Nancy
I stated the facts and I would never enter this forum and state otherwise. I have a lot of respect for this web site.
Nancy
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TheI on 04/16/2012 12:08 PM
TimB4 - Under Fl Statute 720.303(5) inspection and copying of records, an owner does not need to say why they want to see the records, they do not need to state a purpose. The records are open to all owners. They just need to send a certified letter stating they want to see the records and the records have to be shown with in 10 business days or the association could face a fine of $50/day.
As to getting to see a specific violation letter Fl Statute says 720.303(4)(l) All other written records of the association not specifically included in the foregoing which are related to the operation of the association.
It is the interpretation of this statute that may or may not include violation letters.
TimB4 - Under Fl Statute 720.303(5) inspection and copying of records, an owner does not need to say why they want to see the records, they do not need to state a purpose. The records are open to all owners. They just need to send a certified letter stating they want to see the records and the records have to be shown with in 10 business days or the association could face a fine of $50/day.
As to getting to see a specific violation letter Fl Statute says 720.303(4)(l) All other written records of the association not specifically included in the foregoing which are related to the operation of the association.
It is the interpretation of this statute that may or may not include violation letters.
TheI,
I stand corrected. It does appear that 720.303(5)c negates the "proper purpose" clause of the corporate laws:
(c) The association may adopt reasonable written rules governing the frequency, time, location, notice, records to be inspected, and manner of inspections, but may not require a parcel owner to demonstrate any proper purpose for the inspection, state any reason for the inspection, or limit a parcel owner’s right to inspect records to less than one 8-hour business day per month.
Nancy,
Based on the information provided by TheI, it appears that you must release that information.
Although I don't like it, it's possible that another option would be that you can discourage them seeing the file by informing the requester that a) the request must be sent via certified mail and due to privacy concerns, the board would require that the file be reviewed in the attorneys office and per 720.303(5)c the requester would be required to pay the reasonable costs associated with viewing those files.
Now, if the Association hasn't adopted written rules, using the alternative option could be seen as improper. Therefore, if no rules have been adopted, they should be first. Telling the member that the request must be by certified letter along with a polite letter saying that the board has investigated and believes the issue is resolved, may be enough for the individual to drop the issue. Something like Brian suggested:
The Board thanks you for your concern. The events in question were taken up by the board and appropriate actions were implemented with the parties responsible. Since the cost to copy those records must be paid in advance, and in an effort to minimize those costs, the board hopes that this letter addresses your concern.
However, if you still desire to see these records, in order to comply with FL law, please send the request via certified mail identifying what records you request copies of. Once the Association receives this request, you will be informed of the costs involved.
Hopefully you can word it better so it doesn't appear confrontational.
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