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AaronG (Illinois)
Posts: 2
Posted:
I'm saving up to buy a townhome in 1 year when my lease is up at my apartment. I'm trying to research different associations to see what the rules and monthly fees are. Where do I start? And how do I find the information on specific associations? Thank you.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Aaron...easiest way is to just ask them. They are not required to give it to you but they might. A lot of places have their covenants in a PDF so they can email to you or they may have them online. Other more tedious way is to go to the county office and search for it there.
AaronG (Illinois)
Posts: 2
Posted:
Thank you much.
BB5 (Missouri)
Posts: 145
Posted:
Don't buy in an association !!!!!!!!!
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
It probably makes more sense to narrow down to a few possibilties and then to inquire about rules.

Usually real estate listings include HOA fees although sometimes they can be wrong (possibly unintentionally). Assume they need to be verified.

If your state does not require an HOA package, it may make sense to include a contingency in any offer that CC&Rs, etc. be provided before closing.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I suggest getting a BUYERS AGENT and not a regular Real Estate agent. A buyer's Agent is a Realtor that works for YOU. They just split the 6% fee between the seller's realtor when the property is sold. That percentage is worked out between the two realtors. Sometimes they can be the buyer agent and seller agent in certain situations FYI. So don't get too suspicious if that happens as they are still realtors and can have their own property to represent. Just don't look at only their property.

Realtor's are like used car salesmen but with houses. NOT knocking them but be aware of what you should know when selecting a realtor. They still are NOT responsible for giving you the rules just like everyone else is NOT. It is viewed as yours. So you can ask the seller to provide copies prior to closing, or go to the RECORDS department of the local courthouse. The HOA's don't have to provide you with anything as you are NOT a member till you sign that closing line. They may just give you a brochure, a website, or talk to you on the phone.

Living in a HOA is what YOU make of it. If you do NOT like it then that is you...I liked living in one if you like a sense of community and keeping things interesting everyday...LOL...

Former HOA President
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Aaron,

You can't compare assessments between associations. This is because every association is different and depending on the number of lots and the amount/type of amenities assessment amounts vary drastically. However, there are several things you should check on about the Association you will be buying into. I know I won't cover them all, but I'll offer what I can:

1) Read the guidelines and CC&Rs. Look for things that might cause you issues. Thinking about a pet - what are the limitations? If you like basketball are permanent or portable hoops banned? If you want a shed are they allowed or have size limitations? If you want a deck and your home doesn't have one can you build one? Don't go by seeing others have these things as they could be grandfathered or in violation. Actually read the covenants and guidelines to see if you can live within the restrictions.

Check the Reserves, Income and Expense Statements and budget Ask for a copy of the last reserve study. If there isn't one, read the CC&Rs and bylaws to determine what common elements are the responsibility of the Associations. Then try to determine if enough money is being set aside annually to cover replacement and repair. If not, look at your own finances and ask if you can afford a special assessment. Note: I live in a town home development and we are being quoted $13-$15 per square yard for milling and paving of the street/parking area (about $440,000 total).

Request copies of the last 6 months of Board meeting minutes and last two years of annual meeting minutes Read them. This will give you an idea of the issues the Association is facing.

Directly ask if the Association is involved in any litigation OR pending litigation Legal battles cost money. You will be responsible for your share. If the answer is yes, get the court papers and read what the case is about. If it's past assessments it's probably not a big concern for you. If it's over violations or something else, you need to make a determination if this is something you want to deal with.

Find out what limits, if any, the Board has in raising assessments This may or may not become an issue. Personally, I think the Board should be able to raise them 5-10% without membership approval and require membership approval for anything greater than that AND all special assessments.

Enforcement Policy What is the enforcement policy and/or fine schedule? Is it reasonable and allow for hearings?

Declarant or Member controlled Association If the Declarant is still in charge, members have little if any say in how things are done. Additionally, the Declarant may be keeping assessments artificially low (covering some of the expenses themselves) in order to entice buyers. If assessments are too low, there may not be any Reserve fund. If this is the case, you may be facing a large increase in assessments when the members take over. You need to decide if this is in your budget.

Hope these help.

Tim
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
OH, make any offer contingent on receiving that information and after x days having the right to withdraw the offer without penalty.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
TimB has a good list and I think you can see this is too much to deal with unless you know you are interested in a house.

By the way: in any locality there are standard forms for making an offer. YOU CAN STILL WRITE IN ADDITIONAL CONTINGENCIES and you should if there is not already one for HOA information.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
CAVEAT EMPTOR

IMO: run as fast as you can from any HOA or CCRs
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
fred, tim:

imo; no seller in their right mind would even consider such offers
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Well, in the State of VA, a seller needs to provide 99% of the items I mentioned and VA law gives the buyer 3 or 5 days (I'd have to check) to back out of the deal once they receive those materials. The only thing I mentioned in the above list that isn't part of VA law is the 2 years of annual membership meetings.

JeanneK3 (Maryland)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Maryland is the same as Virginia. The seller must provide the buyer extensive information about the property and the association and the buyer can opt out of any contract within I think is 5 days.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
in that case no 'contingency clause' would be necessary
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> imo; no seller in their right mind would even consider such offers

In the present market I am certain the seller would take one of the many other offers from buyers that don't ask for HOA information.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I was always ready to provide a copy of all my HOA docs as soon as the buyer showed serious interest, versus just a walk through.

Initial response was to clearly/precisly answer any questions the buyer asked. Directly or via the realtor.

Second step was to answer additio nal questions if the buyer was still interested.

Third step was for me to provide a copy of anything I had if the buyer requested.

Fourth step was sales price negotations including buyer conditions that the HOA "officially" provide/verify whatever they wanted.

I was not about to, nor expect my HOA, to go through any expense until I believed we had a "serious" buyer versus one just collecting stuff.

If roadblocks are put in ones way (versus my outline above) then one should question why. Are there hidden issues with the association, is the seller an A hole or hiding something or is the buyer considered not serious?

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Damn the no edit feature.

I would suggest that any association make an effort to put all their docs online for viewing. Yes date them and put in the caveat that they might not be up to date nor a legal document, but at least this shows one is not hiding things.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 04/14/2012 11:04 AM
CAVEAT EMPTOR

IMO: run as fast as you can from any HOA or CCRs

Run twice as fast from condos/townhouses. These present the owner with every single disadvantage of apartment living plus all the disadvantages of being a homeowner without any benefits of either.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredS7 on 04/14/2012 3:25 PM
> imo; no seller in their right mind would even consider such offers

In the present market I am certain the seller would take one of the many other offers from buyers that don't ask for HOA information.


What offers the seller is willing to consider depends on the number of offers being received and how badly they want to sell.

If I'm buying into an association and the seller or Association (once the seller requests) doesn't want to provide that information - I wouldn't want to buy into that development as the obvious question would be, what are they trying to hide?

The original poster was the buyer not the seller and I believe that a buyer should, as a minimum, ask those questions and review those documents so they know what they are buying into.

Sellers, in my opinion, should include the Associations website address (if available) within their listing, as many associations provide a lot of this information on their web sites.

Associations should be willing to provide all of this information as this minimizes misunderstandings between members and the Association.
My Association has everything I listed available to it's members on the website. Only the minutes and financials are limited to members access. Sales in our development have been quick (average is less than a month on market) and for fair market value. All I can say is, it seems to work for us.

As for town homes, since I live in one, it depends on the design. Our development was designed so only the common wall and common rear yard fence are shared elements between the owners. The roofs are the sole responsibility of the owner of the property. I know that this is different from most town homes but, in my opinion, it shouldn't be. Considering how small many lots are today, even single family homes can be like living in an apartment.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
The OP Aaron asked a rather simple question in his plans to purchase property and while the answers are important I find some of the responses even more telling.

First to Aaron. You have been given some good advice. Gather the information on properties you might be interested in. Ask for the paperwork go over it and find someone that has more knowledge than you.

Paperwork is important. I would add visiting the property day, night, weekday and weekends. Walk through the property, get a feel for what type of living situation exists. Talk to residents, neighbors, knock on a few doors and speak to folks that live and OWN there.

IMO HOA/Townhouses/Condos offer a route to ownership that in many cases is more affordable and appealing to some property owners. Do some HOAs/Condos have issues? Certainly, but as I have no knowledge of every single HOA property in existence I would hesitate to condemn all of them and suggest to Aaron this should not be an option he might consider.

As to the responses, seems some don't make much of an effort to hide their core beliefs. A simple don't buy suggests each and every such property is evil to the core. Is it the case that every HOA across America is undesirable? Or is it just your property and you have allowed your opinions to be jaded to the point nothing is safe or good.

Why is it those that find HOA living so undesirable LIVE IN HOAS????
Why did you buy there? Why not move?

There are sites that fall in line with your thinking. Where the theme and only accepted point of view is complete hatred for the form of propert ownership. How is that even possible? Is there not ONE HOA that operates in an acceptable manner? To suggest otherwise is foolish, ignorant, or simplemended.

Even this site permits the discussion of both negative and positive aspects of HOA living in the hopes some people might share how to improve their properties and the operation of HOAs in general. This is not by any means HOAs are great, perfect, and without problems. Why does the other viewpoint fail to have the ability to see anything other than their perspective? I know the answer just making a point.

Sounds to me some of the responses to Aaron's post were to be polite extreme. To be realistic not worth considering.

Not sure how many HOA communities exist today just know there are quite a few. IMO deciding all are the devil's workshop and need to be destoyed,
eliminated, or battled each and every day lives in a world of make believe and fantasy. Just what will be accomplished in the end? Bankrupt your own property? Make your property undesirable and worthless? Don't you get it the property fails you fail. The property is destroyed your investment is destroyed.

Sort of like burning your own house down to get rid of ants..........

I find the tone and content of some of the recent posts here to be distrubing and questionable. During my time living in a condo property and serving on the Board I have asked one simple question. "What would be best for the entire property?" The answers usually follow. Today, I read sue them, break up or dissolve the HOA, free speech rights, get the ACLU involved, call the press, get more laws passed, the MCs are wrong, the Board is evil, everything under the sun but what might be the positive outcome of any of this? IMO not much.

I also notice some now seem to be willing to offer advice to others in fighting the good fight. My question would be has any of this actually worked for you? Have the web sites bashing the HOA accomplished anything? Have the lawsuits accomplished anything? If so at what cost?
Has anyone dissolved their HOA? Was that a positive thing in the end? Haven't read about many of those. You though could be the first.

We also have people passing off questionable legal advice and counsel. No matter they have never actually been to court let alone in the state the poster resides in. They have never held a law degree. They have never actually read and understood the laws. But they heard about, read about a case where something similar happened and therefore good enough to base your beliefs on. The they spread the word about ever case that puts HOAs in a bad light and offer this as proof. What is most shocking to me is people come to this site get such advice and put a value on it simply because it supports their point of view!

To Aaron good luck, let the buyer beware. Do your homework and ask questions. This is not inventing the wheel. For some people HOA ownership works well. Not every case but I heard about one or two.

To those of you blinded by your beliefs from more than likely ONE expierence in HOA ownership, just what would be best not only for you but the property you own? IMO not the road you have chosen..........

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:

Well written and so true.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I believe one of those out here that is very negative about associations once rented a unit in a association, never owned in one.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Jon,

Excellent additional advice to Aaron.

Excellent observations as well.

Tim

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