Theft: How do you handle

Started by JM10 • 34 replies • 3233 views

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JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

We caught someone stealing our banner.

First, when we posted it on a week from last Sunday (25 March 2012), the banner was taken down from our second story balcony and thrown into the garbage bin.

We complained about it to the board at the board meeting the next day. No one, including all the board members claimed to have seen it.

We retrieved it, washed it and put it up again last Wednesday (28 March 2012). It was taken down by the evening we could not find it. We made a smaller one and put it up yesterday and staked the place out. The lead board member was caught taking it down.

We called the police. The board member was forced to give back the original banner and the second one.

California civil code allows us to display posters and banners from our balcony as long as they are within a certain dimension. Both the banner and poster were under the maximum size. There was nothing offensive on them. We made no alterations to the balcony (e.g. we did not install flag holder brackets).

How do other HOA communities handle theft?

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

same as you ... theft is a crime ... call law enforcement ... PRESS CHARGES ... crime is crime, neighbors or not

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

IMO this is not an HOA matter unless it was HOA property that was stolen, in which case we prosecute if we know who did it. You have the same option as a private citizen. Just because the accused is a Board member doesn't make it an HOA problem unless he is claiming he was acting in his capacity as a Board member. Then I would file a complaint with the Board and prosecute if you are so inclined although since the banners have been returned I don't know what your damages would be.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Originally the board member did not claim knowledge of the act. Now, however, he wrote to us that we will be fined if we do display a banner from our balcony again.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

As long as your banner complies with 1353.6, I would write the Board and ask them how you are in violation. Or you could post it again and if you are fined, fight it.

Often the you will be fined is used by the Board or in this case by a Board member in the same way a homeowner uses "I'll sue" in an effort to get someone to comply with something that they don't like.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

JM10, So far I think you have handled it properly by catching the thief and getting the police involved. I am concerned that the thief is a member of the Board and therefore would report this in writting to the Board. Since a thief can not be trusted I would recommend to the Board that they encourage the thief to resign from the Board.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JM10 on 04/03/2012 9:31 AM
Originally the board member did not claim knowledge of the act. Now, however, he wrote to us that we will be fined if we do display a banner from our balcony again.

JM,

FIRST determine if the balcony is considered your property or exclusive use common property.

If it's limited common property, the Association may have some say in what is allowed (I have not read the statute you refer to).

If it is your property or if the statute controls over exclusive use common property, write a very polite response to the letter specifying that the banner is allowed by civil code xyz, cite the passage, and specify that it is your understanding that this civil code, similar to flying the American flag, is the controlling document. I would send it via certified mail.

Now, since the Board might still fine you and it could result in a court battle to settle the issue, you may want to consult an attorney before sending the letter or pay them to send the letter on your behalf.
Either way, you would have put them on notice.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Our attorney says the CC&R are not clearly written regarding this issue.It is considered exclusive use common property but there is only a rule regarding commercial signs in the CC&R.

However, things that are clear: we should be notified about board meetings 10-days in advance and in writing by mail or personal delivery, but the board refuses to do so, even by email. It took getting a lawyer in order to be able to speak at a meeting (when we can find out when it is and where it is). It took a lawyer for us to be able to view the insurance although we are supposed to be able to in 10-days of a request. It took nearly 6 months.

We are the only unit that is not receiving the emailed newsletter. We found that out in January. So we were left out of the nomination process for the board.

We are scheduled for mediation as part of the small claims court agreement made in October of last year, but the board (who agreed to this) has stalled so we might not meet until May.

In response to a previous comment, we have been threatened with fines almost every month it seems. This is why we are trying to sell.

We'd actually like to have a real estate sign on our unit, but the board would not get back to us on that and made no rules and threatened to fine us for displaying one from the balcony. We asked about the rules, and they said they'd make one. I told them they can't fine us for rules that haven't been made yet.

We'd like to display a welcome sign since they won't allow even one real estate sign. The real estate agent has complained twice.

So this is one thing on a long list of things. We've been to court twice. The second time the board wanted to charge us for improvements a couple of hundred over the actual cost. The previous board had decided to take out the lawn. The current board wanted one. They also wanted to charge us for the tree removal (we didn't put it there) and the removal of the flower beds (that were part of the original plan).

I guess I should also add that the first time we displayed signs they were on the community message board and when they were torn down, we put them on our garage, on our door and off our balcony. Those signs just asked "When's the next meeting" and weren't as pretty or professionally made. The judge in the October court hearing laughed and thought they were great. They were a winning point in our case.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

We were wondering how to do this: If we should report the theft and dishonesty.

But what you're saying is that we should report this action in writing to the other Board members and recommend that the board request this thief resign from the board.

If you read below you'll see that we aren't allowed to receive the newsletter. We don't know who it will be spun in the newsletter.

How do you suggest we notify the other HOA members?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JM10 on 04/03/2012 2:32 PM
Our attorney says the CC&R are not clearly written regarding this issue.It is considered exclusive use common property but there is only a rule regarding commercial signs in the CC&R.

Not being clear means you have a 50/50 chance of winning any legal battle.
Personally, I don't like those odds when it comes to spending money (legal fees, your share of Association legal fees, etc.).

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

JM10, See Calif. Civil Code 1353.5 & 1353.6. The only item that the HOA must permit on exclusive use balconies is the U.S. flag. What exactly do your CC&Rs say about this; you've only told us that your attorney says the language is vague. I'd be concerned that your attorney isn't looking at CA Civil Code.

You'll also see that Civil Code may not forbid the posting of NONCOMMERCIAL banners & signs in your windows. I also think that you may post real estate signs for rent, sale or exchange in your windows, but don't have time to look that one up. Go to davis-sterling.com to check on it.

Only four days notice is required prior to an open meeting of the Board, not 10 unless your docs state 10. If it's not mailed to you, it should be on your community bulletin board. Just as a practical matter, can't you ask your neighbors? Ditto for a copy of the newsletter?

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

I'd consider this more vandalism than anything else. Call the cops. Spare the HOA politics unless you're bored and like drama.

RobertC14 (Colorado)
Posts: 78

Posted:

my first thought is if the board truly had cause to fine why not just do so? why did this single board member resort to theft / vandalism if there was a remedy in the ccr's. that action right thee tells me they plainly just didn't like it knew they had no recourse through fining and decided to take it upon themselves to make the banner disappear. they just did not count on getting caught and the fining threat was just that. a threat with nothing to back it up.

i say put it up and send the board a registered letter with a detailed account of the incident(s).

stick it right square back up the individuals :-0

RobertC14

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BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JM10 on 04/03/2012 2:34 PM
We were wondering how to do this: If we should report the theft and dishonesty.

But what you're saying is that we should report this action in writing to the other Board members and recommend that the board request this thief resign from the board.

If you read below you'll see that we aren't allowed to receive the newsletter. We don't know who it will be spun in the newsletter.

How do you suggest we notify the other HOA members?

This is how I would handle it...if you called the police and they took a report it is public record. I would get that report, send it to the board and the MC and state your concerns about this person being in a position of responsibility and ask the board to ask him to resign.

As for the sign, I would cite the code and send back asking for the board's interpretation on how you are in violation? I would request a meeting with the board, and not rely on this one board member who probably has not filled the others in.

If all else fails organize a movement to get him recalled, I think people would be interested to know they have a thief in their midst and a liar as well.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

My take on this is the signs that JM put up are probably not allowed. I also say if put up on common property, the BOD might well be within their right to remove such signs. If any one had to trespass on private property to take a sign down, then call the police.

JM and the BOD are never going to make nice. The war began long before the sign issue.

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 04/05/2012 7:35 AM
My take on this is the signs that JM put up are probably not allowed. I also say if put up on common property, the BOD might well be within their right to remove such signs. If any one had to trespass on private property to take a sign down, then call the police.

JM and the BOD are never going to make nice. The war began long before the sign issue.

I will leave the issue of whether the board had the right to remove the signs alone...they did not have the right to take property, throw property away and not return property. Anyway you slice it if the board had the right to remove them it was not handled properly and in a professional manner.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarolR11 on 04/03/2012 5:42 PM
JM10, See Calif. Civil Code 1353.5 & 1353.6. The only item that the HOA must permit on exclusive use balconies is the U.S. flag. What exactly do your CC&Rs say about this; you've only told us that your attorney says the language is vague. I'd be concerned that your attorney isn't looking at CA Civil Code.

You'll also see that Civil Code may not forbid the posting of NONCOMMERCIAL banners & signs in your windows. I also think that you may post real estate signs for rent, sale or exchange in your windows, but don't have time to look that one up. Go to davis-sterling.com to check on it.

Only four days notice is required prior to an open meeting of the Board, not 10 unless your docs state 10. If it's not mailed to you, it should be on your community bulletin board. Just as a practical matter, can't you ask your neighbors? Ditto for a copy of the newsletter?

There is nothing in the CC&R regarding noncommercial signs. There is only mention of commercial signs. The board, however, has made no rules regarding noncommercial signs. They did threaten to fine us over a sign in our window (of our door).

We do have the right to post commercial signs, but the board has the right to make limitations. Unfortunately, although we asked in October, the board has refused to put this on the agenda. In California, the board can limit even the color. We must be able to post at least one sign on an exclusive use common area in plain view of the public, but the board will not allow this or make any rules regarding this. They just tell us what we can't do when we do it and threaten to fine us.

Our CC&R requires 10-day notification for any meeting and it must be personal delivery or mail. We don't get either. The board doesn't post meeting notifications on the board 10-days in advance. Sometimes only three and we no longer live there. We have asked our neighbors for a copy of the newsletters. The person asked the board and the board claimed they had mailed it to us. My impression is that other members do not want to get in the middle of this and it is an awkward situation. The newsletters are not posted on the board.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Quote:

Exclusive use common area is slightly different than common area. We have a right to decorate the exclusive use common area to a certain degree. The board has not made any rules regarding signs or other decoration on exclusive use common area which is to say other people have decorated their areas.

We've tried to make nice when we asked to attend the board meetings, but unfortunately the board didn't see this was necessary even after we went to court.

The first actual sign that went up was regarding when there was a board meeting which they wouldn't tell us until after the board meeting (by taping a meeting minutes from the previous meeting to the doormat).

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertC14 on 04/04/2012 7:09 PM
my first thought is if the board truly had cause to fine why not just do so? why did this single board member resort to theft / vandalism if there was a remedy in the ccr's. that action right thee tells me they plainly just didn't like it knew they had no recourse through fining and decided to take it upon themselves to make the banner disappear. they just did not count on getting caught and the fining threat was just that. a threat with nothing to back it up.

i say put it up and send the board a registered letter with a detailed account of the incident(s).

stick it right square back up the individuals :-0

The board has threatened us with fines almost every month. The mail goes directly to the individual who did the deed and as of today we have not been informed if the association has a lawyer (as we are heading toward mediation).

So while we want to take the advice that you and some others have given us in terms of sending a letter, we're not sure to whom we would send it. The person in question is the treasurer and we aren't allowed to know who the secretary (or president) is.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Stop placing signs everywhere. Problem solved. (wink)

RobertC14 (Colorado)
Posts: 78

Posted:

We complained about it to the board at the board meeting the next day. No one, including all the board members claimed to have seen it.

We retrieved it, washed it and put it up again last Wednesday (28 March 2012). It was taken down by the evening we could not find it. We made a smaller one and put it up yesterday and staked the place out. The lead board member was caught taking it down.

this is what concerns me about what was in this persons mind.

why do it so covertly and than not fess up to it and state why if it was sanctioned in CCR's?

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

If the covenants restrict such signs (making this a non-theft), it doesn't matter why a board member sneakily removed it.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

If the covenants restrict such signs (making this a non-theft), it doesn't matter why a board member sneakily removed it.

RobertC14 (Colorado)
Posts: 78

Posted:

again the moment the board denied any knowledge, it became theft plain and simple. the board should have stated it was taken down by the board and if it is put back up the matter will be referred to the HOA attorney for further action. that did not happen. they may have had a right to sneakily remove it under ccr's but not deny they did so when confronted. period.

this is universal across all 50 states.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KellyM3 on 04/08/2012 7:25 PM

If the covenants restrict such signs (making this a non-theft), it doesn't matter why a board member sneakily removed it.

The CC&R only restricts commercial signs and does not mention noncommercial signs.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveM9 on 04/08/2012 7:05 PM
Stop placing signs everywhere. Problem solved. (wink)

When I say we get threatened with fines every months, that isn't always connected with signs. The first time was for attempting to attend an board meeting and complaining about being shut out.

RobertC14 (Colorado)
Posts: 78

Posted:

either way you slice it or spin it. something is going on and the more that comes out that something i am leaning toward is to seek legal advice and possibly slap (figuratively speaking) the board and this individual around in court a bit.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertC14 on 04/09/2012 6:53 AM
either way you slice it or spin it. something is going on and the more that comes out that something i am leaning toward is to seek legal advice and possibly slap (figuratively speaking) the board and this individual around in court a bit.

Hopefully, the board will actually meet with us in mediation as they agreed in October of last year. It's set for mid-May and we needed a lawyer to enforce this part of the small claims court judgment.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

Let's see, you must be bored to take this to court and must want your fellow neighbors to foot the bill of a court action that won't yield anything earth shattering. Come on, Dude. There's gotta be something else to do.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KellyM3 on 04/09/2012 1:16 PM

Let's see, you must be bored to take this to court and must want your fellow neighbors to foot the bill of a court action that won't yield anything earth shattering. Come on, Dude. There's gotta be something else to do.

Dear KellyM3:

That's a bit rude. I assure you we aren't bored. You're thinking about it the wrong way. You are saying that you wouldn't mind if your board member(s) lied or stole or committed vandalism against you or your neighbors. I am glad I do not live in your neighborhood.

The court action was already in place (October) by a judge who reprimanded the board. This is yet another action by a board member against us.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

Sorry for the passive-aggressiveness. Just for kicks, what does your banner say that would lead someone to rip it down and hide it? Your thread is pretty well vetted for discussion and we have our positions.

Good luck and have fun smacking around your community.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KellyM3 on 04/09/2012 2:08 PM

Sorry for the passive-aggressiveness. Just for kicks, what does your banner say that would lead someone to rip it down and hide it? Your thread is pretty well vetted for discussion and we have our positions.

Good luck and have fun smacking around your community.

The first time we put up signs:

"When is the next Board Meeting?"

These were ripped down from the community board something like every 2 hours during a weekend. We had asked in person and via email. When they withheld the meeting minutes, I suspected the board members knew the answer. They gave us the minutes after their board meeting by taping it to our doormat. The minutes indicated they have known for over 30-days when the board meeting was, but just refused to tell us. For this and other similar reasons, we ended up in court.

After the judge indicated she thought the posters (8.5 x 11) were great and asked the board why the board just didn't email us the time, date and location, the board asked that we make inquiries via email. We do. They don't reply. They threaten to fine us for posters like this on the community message board because they have decorative authority. We have posted them on our garage and front door and balcony. We have been threatened with fines for that as well.

It's not a matter of "smacking around your community" it is a matter of standing up for your civil rights. That's what the civil rights movement was about--not allowing people to deny you your civil rights through intimidation, lies and deception.

This time:

Naw Ruz.

RobertC14 (Colorado)
Posts: 78

Posted:

H.O.A.'s across the country should be studied by the federal government. they are almost little mini governments.

the federal government can than take that data and see what works best and what works worst and maybe actually improve the federal government to operate more for the benefit of the people.

think about it. 1000's of HOA's from terrible one's to excellent ones.

the perfect study subject that will actually improve things.

than maybe that model deemed to be best from the study could be tried by HOA's across the country and the result is an overall improvement of CCR's, HOA's and our currently dysfunctional federal government.

just a thought that popped in my head.

this HOA seems to be one of those bad one's that gives them all a bad name.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertC14 on 04/11/2012 1:52 PM
H.O.A.'s across the country should be studied by the federal government. they are almost little mini governments.

the federal government can than take that data and see what works best and what works worst and maybe actually improve the federal government to operate more for the benefit of the people.

think about it. 1000's of HOA's from terrible one's to excellent ones.

the perfect study subject that will actually improve things.

than maybe that model deemed to be best from the study could be tried by HOA's across the country and the result is an overall improvement of CCR's, HOA's and our currently dysfunctional federal government.

just a thought that popped in my head.

this HOA seems to be one of those bad one's that gives them all a bad name.

I've heard some really good things about HOA. My friend's lives in one where everyone takes turns being an officer/board member on a regular rotation. I think too many people don't realize that common interest means you really need to take an interest in what's happening.

I posted something about a HOA in Hawaii because I wondered what was happening in other states. One solution suggested in California was to form an Office of the Common Interest Development Bureau (Bureau) as
a pilot project within the Department of Consumer Affairs (DCA) that would settle disputes AND (along your thinking) collect data. This was vetoed by the then-governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Somewhere someone should be collecting data.

Things seem to be so disjointed otherwise.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

JM10,

I see the issue much better now. Okay, it sounds like everyone is getting in on the action with "decorative" violations due to signs being posted on a bulletin board and such. It sounds like your board is asking for a bit of civil disobedience.

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