Staff payroll

Ralph,

I don't know if it's illegal or not but I do think you overstepped asking to see W2s.

It's possible that the methodology and the specific documents you are asking for in order to find out this information that is causing the issues rather than the information itself.

Just because you're a Director doesn't mean your allowed access to private information. Privacy issues are typically on a need to know basis. Officers and Directors are required to protect privacy. For example, a Director has no need to know if your neighbor pays assessments on time or not. If your neighbor is sufficiently delinquent in their assessments, the Treasurer should bring the issue to the Board for consideration of filing a lien. At this time, it would be appropriate for the Board to know who the issue is with. Until then, that member has a right to privacy which the Treasurer and office staff should protect.

Using the above example, as a Director, you should know how many lots are x, y and z days behind in assessments. However, there is no need to know which specific lots as there are privacy rights that must be protected. This may be what is causing the uproar.

Unless the contract is up for renewal and the board is considering bids, unless your the Treasurer or a cosigner on the check, I don't think you need to know how much a specific employee makes. However, as a Director you should know how much is being spent on salaries. This information would be available in the Treasures income and expense statement reported at the board meeting. As a Director, you should know what the duties of each employee is, this would be available by reviewing the contract. OH, since the contract would contain the financial compensation for the services rendered, you could probably discover what you wanted to know without the need to ask for W2s. The Secretary should have a copy of the contracts.

You posted that prior to being elected, there was the perception that the Board was being too secretive. Was there a reason why you needed to know the individual salaries (vs. the total amount of expenditures that were spent on personnel) or were you just curious and felt you should know based on your position? As I posted, it would certainly be appropriate to know this info if the Board was considering a new budget or soliciting bids from independent contractors to perform the same services. There may be other reasons why it could be appropriate for you to know.

My advice would be to try and look at it from the employees perspective. Objectively question why you need the information and then do the following:

1) If you made a mistake, admit it.
2) Correct the mistake if possible (perhaps a simple apology and explanation as to why you needed the info).
3) Take the necessary steps required so the mistake isn't repeated.
4) Move forward.

The best advice I can give a new Director is to read and understand the State HOA/COA laws, State corporate laws (if the Association is incorporated) and your governing documents. Review the last years minutes to try and understand why things are being done the way they are. Then with this knowledge, prioritize the issues you see (because you can't fix all of them). Then start to address those issues that you can.

Examples:

If membership perception is that the board is being too secretive, consider methods to change that perception (publish minutes on a members only area of a web site, increase the number of issues for the Association newsletter, offer to lead classes on various topics to inform the membership, etc.).

If membership perception is that they don't know where the money is going, work with the Treasurer (or volunteer to be Treasurer) and change the way the income and expense statements are presented (more line items, less line items, etc.).

Hope this helps,

Tim

IMHO - the president should have taken you aside and let you know what the scoop was. That could have been your first "warning."

The purpose of a Special Meeting must be stated in its call to the members. For you to not know that it was a diciplinary meeting about YOU was very inappropriate.

You don't say what the result was from this meeting. Was there any official action taken, or was it a complaint issue.

PS - your wanting to see the W-2 was inappropriate and misdirected, but not illegal. You could have gotten the info some other way.

I have a feeling that there is more to this situation than what is posted here.

Ralph:

Were you elected to the Board?

And you have served for about 7 months.

The Board President were they elected? And how long have they been serving? The President was voted in by the Board?

And at this meeting where did the other Board members stand?

Sounds to me like you have made a less than favorable impression. Now pointing out the faults and flaws of a Board you have joined 7 months ago just might be part of that. Just to put myself in their position I would not appreciate the path you have taken in doing what "the owners" wanted. IF the owners were not happy with the Board why is the President in the position they hold?

My guess you have become a disruptive force on the Board. And yes there are certainly limits to what you are entitled to and to whom you make your demands. IMO the MC even though they are paid is NOT your office staff to direct and make requests of. I serve as President and have contact with the MC on a near daily basis. IF nother member of the Board demanded records or documents from the MC that request would not be satisfied without being cleared by me first.

My guess they understand your agenda and goals.

There is a reason a "special meeting" was called. I would consider the possibility your behavior is a contributing factor. My suggestion to new Board members is to sit back and listen and learn not rush in like a bull in a China closet and insult people and their efforts.

As a Board member my belief is you should make every effort to serve WITH the other members of the Board and work with them. Not work to undermine their effrots even if there is disagreement.

It's called human nature.

I too would like to hear the outcome of the "special meeting" and where this matter was left. The more important question Ralph would be did this meeting have ANY affect on you and your behavior?

Sorry to point out you are one member of a Board not the only member.
Learn to play nice............

David

I believe there is already confrontation going on with Ralph and the BOD and your suggestion just makes it moreso. It is like win the battle but lose the war.

So far it sounds like he is on a witch hunt and some feel he has intimitated them. If he keeps this up, he will continue to be the black shhep of the BOD and be kept in the dark as much as possible.

I suggest he should offer apologies, make nice, and show he is there to help and participate. If he takes this course of action he might be included and made privy to all things.

Thanks for your response GlenL. It is very hard to state the exact status of our Board and their past and present behavior. It gets very detailed and involved. I can understand certain people, especially certain Board members, taking my comments in the wrong light. You hit the nail right on the head! I have no problem with the last audit performed in October, 2011. The audit, budget, and monthly status reports are primarily handled by our full-time bookkeeper who also did not want to share specifics with me. I'm a firm believer that perception is very important, if you have nothing to hide, answer the questions. Thanks again!

Thanks for your response DavidW5. You have it exactly right. I am well aware not to share or disclose payroll information to the general membership. It is my position that I need to know important information that others know, especially if I am going to contribute to the proper business of the community. I was elected to the Board because the Board's history is one of secrecy, lack of communication, and depleting our reservesl Thanks again David

Thanks SusanW1 for your response. You have it exactly right however I wanted the year-end gross earnings of the employees, I did not have to see the actual W2s. There was no other way to get this information. I went to Board members and our bookkeeper and they tried very hard to keep the information from me until I threatened to contact the attorney for our community. The Board members, administrator and office staff were givern time to prepare their individual negative comments regarding my efforts and behavior and not going along with their flow. They have got each others' backs. The outcome was that I informed them that I would be putting my responses to each of them in writing after digesting it all. I thanked them for giving me the opportunity of hearing each and everyones comments. Thanks again.........

Nope, I have no problem with constructive criticism.

I even agree with the others that if there is a need for the information, it should be provided.

As you said, you didn't have time to present the whole issue in such a short section. As I've always said, if more information is provided, then advice given would change. In a later post you specified that the Association had a Treasurer in name only and others were performing the duties of the Treasurer. You also included the information that there are no contracts with the employees and no positional description of their responsibilities. If I were you, I would be asking many questions as well and based on this new information, I would conclude that there appears to be a need to have the information you are asking for. I'm not sure asking for W2s was appropriate but asking to review all the financials, invoices, checks written, etc., which would have provided you with the same information a W2 would have provided (minus the SSN), would certainly have been appropriate.

Tim

Thanks again Tim. I only wanted to get the 2011 year-end gross earnings and did not have to see the W2's nor their SSN's. I finally did get their earnings verbally by the bookkeeper reading the figures off to me. Sure enough the rate of pay and number of hours worked did not equate to year-end earnings. There was absolutely no overtime paid in 2011. It was determined that although staff worked 37.5 hours per week they received pay for 40 hours.

Perhaps the Association is paying for a 30 minute lunch period per day, adding that to the 37.5 hrs would equate to 40 hrs for a 5 day work week.

Thanks Tim. The office staff get a full hour for lunch. It finally was revealed to us that that policy is a carryover from many, many years back when the employees were "union".

JonD1,

Here's one for ya! URAFI(pretty simple and very obvious)

Ralph, how many units are in your HOA? Detached, attached, or what?

What kinds of common areas and amenities does your HOA have?

What are the duties of the 3 office workers to whom you refer? Are their offices on your premises? Are they all full time?

How many hours a week does this part-time "administrator" work for your HOA. Does his work for your HOA occur on your premises? Is he a certified Property Mgr.?

What kind of meeting was it at which you were blindsided? You call it a "special meeting" but wasn't it some sort of executive session since the topic was a personnel matter? What names do your Bylaws (usually) give to certain types of meetings? If your Bylaws are silent, there should be some NY state statutes, perhaps corporation codes.

Don't your Bylaws state how many board meetings that are open to homeowners there should be each year? In CA, these are called "regular meetings" or "open meetings." Our bylaws say four, but we usually hold one per month. You said that the Board cancelled the 4 "informational" meetings a year for H/O's. What do your Bylaws say about "informational" meetings?

Can your Board change Bylaws simply with a Board resolution or may they only be changed by a vote of homeowners?

Ralph,

I'm glad to see that you understand the need to make amends in order to change things.

I truly believe that Jon was trying to help. He was trying to make you understand that you need to change your approach in order to win the good fight and make changes. This is what I was also trying to do also. Jon was just more direct and too the point. Sometimes this is the best approach to have people see things they don't want to see. Sometimes it backfires.

Based on your posts about Jon's comments, it appears that it backfired and that you tend to hold on and attack those whom you perceive as attacking you. My military training says that this attitude could keep you alive on the battle field. My experiences in civilian life has proven that this attitude will do little to gain support from others. I've also learned that some would try to work you into a frenzy just for the entertainment value it can give (as they will not have to live with the consequences).

In an effort to help, as I posted earlier, I would not have been asking for W2s. I would have been asking for other documents that would have provided the same information. You posted that there are no contracts for these individuals and that there are no lists of expected duties. Now that you know that, try to fix it.

I would suggest that you approach the office manager and apologize for the approach you used (you need to do this because you need their assistance). Explain that your concerned that there are no contracts or job descriptions and you would like to remedy this situation in order to protect the Association from potential issues in the future. Then ask the manager to write up a list of the duties they are doing now. Have the employees do the same (as the manager doesn't always know everything the staff is taking care of).

Then start putting a package together to present to the Board. Here is an example of a simple employment contract I found on the web. I'm sure other searches would produce better examples.

That's my suggestion as a way for you to start changing things from the inside. As with all the suggestions, opinions and advice provided, you are free to use all, some or none of it.

On a side note, just as I believe you could have approached the salary issue better, I believe you over reacted to Jon's posts.

Hope this helps,

Tim

Ralph

Generally no BOD can change CC&R's and/or Bylaws. Those changes usually require at least a 2/3rd's or more vote (sometimes 75% in favor) of the homeowners. A BOD can make Rules and Regulations (and enforce them) but they should only be clarifications/decisions/rulings in line with and not contradictory to CC&R and Bylaws.

Examples well with the power of the BOD Rules and Regulations:

1. Bylaws say. No commercial vehicles can be parked overnight in ones driveway. The BOD Rules and Regulations could further define commercial vehicles. Is an SUV with a realtors name, company, phone, on the rear window a commercial vehicle?

2. No Bocce Court rules in CC&R's nor Bylaws. The BOD Rules and Regulations could say Bocce Courts close at 9:00PM.

Off the top of my head, it does seem you have a large paid staff for your size. My last HOA was 700 private homes (each home maintained there own lot), one pool, one community center, two tennis courts, one basketball court, several parks, public roads, city sewage. Our Management Company had one management person on site 3 days a week. He had an office in the community center and an office budget (phone, computer, copier, etc.) but no staff. All maintenance was done by contract, down to changing a light bulb.

Here is my take on the situation...first of all the "special meeting" if it went down the way it did was childish and for a lack of a better word an ambush. If they wanted to do that they should have informed you of the reason for the meeting ahead of time.

Secondly, as a director of a corporation you are entitled to every bit of information that any other director is entitled to including salaries of those who work for the corporation.

Thirdly, asking questions as a new board member in my opinion is never a bad thing and should be looked at as a method to keep folks honest.

Finally...however, the manner in which those questions are asked or information is requested can go a long way in determining whether you are successful in getting it or get a block wall put up in front of you. Without me being there and seeing what is going on I can only draw conclusions based on what info is in front of me. It is quite possible you have ruffled feathers the wrong way, and why is that. Two possible reasons...1) your methods are a bit abrasive or 2) there really is something to hide and they don't want you to see it.

Unfortunately, it's the perception of the individual who was asked (vs. the individual who is doing the asking) that would establish this.

Additionally, this perception is also affected by outside influences. I suspect we have all had a bad day where we were going over things in our mind and someone asked a simple question or perhaps just said hello and we interpreted their tone to be opposite of what it was because of these issues.

Hi Carol, I'm sorry for not getting right back to you/been busy a bit. The following excerpts are taken from our Bylaws and Rules and Regulations: "Annual and special meetings of the Association are fixed by the Directors and designated in the notices of such meetings.
The Secretary shall mail notices of annual meetings not less than 10 days nor more than 30 days before the meeting date.
It shall be the duty of the President to call a special meeting of the members of the Association whenever he is directed to do so by resolution of the Directors or upon presentation to the Secretay of a petition signed by 20% of the members entitled to vote at such meeting
All decisions of the Board of Directors involving a single major capital expenditure in excess of 5% of the current year's total budget requires the affirmative vote of at least 51% percent of membership(example: two years ago the Board decided to do a major road project in excess of $700K without going to the membership-their position was that it was a maintenance issue of repair-needless to say the membership was up in arms, voiced there complaints and outrage, and nothing further was done, case closed!). The approximate annual budget was $1.8Mil...
Regular meetings of the Board may be held at such time as may be determined by the Directors. Notice of regular meetings shall be given at least five days before the date appointed. Such notice shall state the date, time and place of such meeting and the purpose thereof(our regular meetings of the Board are scheduled for every 2nd and 4th
Tuesday of every month).
Special meetings of the Board may be called by the President on three days notice to each Director, given in the same manner as provided for under Regular meetings. Special meetings of the Board shall be called by the President or Secretary in like manner upon the request of any two Directors.
The Board has power to make and enforce reasonable rules and regulations and to amend the same from time to time, as approved by resolution and theses shall be binding on the owners and occupants.
The Secretary shall attend all meetings of the Board and of the members; record all votes and minutes of all meetings and proceedings.
Members are not permitted to attending any type of Board meeting unless by invitation from the Board
There is nothing in our bylaws nor rules and regulations pertaining to Executive Sessions.
It has been the policy of our Board(for years) to have the Administrator attend all Board meetings and speak and comment on anything he wishes.
The Directors on the Board must all reside in our community 10 months of the year.
An Executive session to our Board means that the Administrator must leave the meeting.
What I meant by limited power is that the Board cannot change covenants and restriction, cannot remove a "Director" and should go to the members for major expenditures. I hope I have answered your questions. Thanks again

Tim, my last word in my reply should have been suspicions.

Thanks Carol.

Like listening to someone in school give a book report for a book they never read. Lots of words that in the end mean little.

I know a few things:

Like any other state NY laws have their differences from others.
Would be a good first step if you understood them.

Capital improvements vs. maintanance would be good to understand that too. Even if the homeowners were "up in arms". More than likely they don't have an understanding either.

Despite "education" and age, 7 months is 7 months. There is a learning curve. Even for the "gifted" among us.

If you have gotten to the 55+ age group chances of learning new tricks slim to none.

When the remainder of the Board and the people who manage your property all agree you have become a disruption that is not a good thing.

My guess within a few months best to resign and make everyone else happy.
When your leaving makes others happy, that is NOT a good relfection on you or your behavior.

This is what I know the rest you will have to figure out for yourself.

Sadly, Ralph despite your vast qualifications and education you DON'T get to control who says what and the opinions of others.

Tough for you being the smartest person in the room and nobody else listens huh? I am sure you have faced this for most of your life.

Why don't you refer the other members of your Board to this site. This way we could get their version of the story. And they in turn can read what you had to say about them. I am sure they would have quite a different tale to tell. But of course you can't do that because then people would hear the other side of the coin. Not your biased, uninformed viewpoints.

That's one of the risks you run when you ask for other's opinions, they might give them to you and they might not agree with you. None of your formal education covered that huh?????

Good luck to your remaining Board members and your property.

Ralph, in your original post waaaay above, you wrote that you ran for the board because you felt your board was too secretive.

The reason I wanted you to look into NY's state laws is so that you can learn if there's something in them that protects homeowners in your hOA from board secrecy. Does your board comply with any sort of open meeting statutes that may exist in NY, for example? This why I asked you so much about your own governing documents. If you cited them correctly, they are confusing, but seem to say that H/O's may only attend regular board meetings at the board's invitation.

That's very strange!

You need to learn, not just quote, your own docs. Your need to learn what the words mean. You need to learn the relevant state laws.

That is one important way that you can protect your HOA and its members.

Carol, Thanks for your comments. Our Board and the community as a whole supposedly operate under our Bylaws(we call it our "Blue Book") which contains: covenants; restrictions; Bylaws; rules and regulations. The community refers to the Blue Book when they claim that the Board has not and does not follow it. I have studied the Blue Book thoroughly since becoming a resident here and even more so when elected to the Board. I have not gotten into State Laws because I havn't had a need to thus far. I have no intention of single handedly tackling the Board in the legal arena. I don't need it. I follow our Blue Book(our Bible) and I contest their misusing it with little or no support from the other Directors. We now have only one informational meeting open to the membership(gives a financial update; a summary of what has been been going on in the community with a question and answer period;an annual budget meeting and a meet the candidates night, both of which are called for in our Blue Book. I am putting up a new post pertaining to yesterday's "regular" Board meeting(never open to the Membership. Carol, this has been going on for years. The membership don't know what to do or how to do it. See my new post regarding "protecting the HOA and its members.

Thanks Carol. I did my research into New York's statutes and there is no conflict with our "Blue Book". Just the opposite. New York Laws give most power to the Bylaws and the Board of Directors(individually and collectively). The law clearly states that the individual Director must maintain his/her fiduciary responsibility to the members that elected him and the Association, to the best of his/her ability in each and every instance with no mention whatsoever about any allegiance to the unpopular Board that has disregarding many conditions of the Blue Book. The Board has every right to keep homeowners out of each 2 regularly scheduled monthly Board meetings. As I stated somewhere else, this Board last year cancelled the traditionally held 4 informational meetings and I got them to reinstate one of them with my winning the election on the platform of more transparency and communication......... If you read my reply to Tim(under my post under Fiduciary Responsibility it might shed some light on why I ever came to this site in the first place and my feelings of how these postings and questions should be perceived. As far as your statement that Jon is very knowledgeable, I have no doubt that he knows a lot about playing tricks and being rude and pompous, just read my original postings and his replies and going back and forth. I have asked him to "please" not reply to any of my postings and he will not! I will not let him get the last word........Thanks again(sorry for going on and on but I just got another reply from Jon.