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AlisonP2 (California)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Hello.

I searched the forums for some answers to my predicament and couldn't find the info that I need, so forgive me for posting if this type of issue has been previously addressed.

My husband and I purchased our California condo (the complex contains 166 units total)in 2003. My husband was active military and we were living out of the area, but knew we wanted to return to the area permanently a few years later. We took advantage of a good deal and purchased a unit in a condo complex. Because we were not living in town, we rented out the unit to a tenant for 2 years. In 2005 we moved into the unit. We slowly outgrew it as our family grew and we bought a second home in 2006. We began renting out the unit again. During this time, while our unit was a rental, the Homeowner's Board decided to amend the Declaration of CC&Rs by a vote to limit rentals and impose a rental restriction Article in the CC&Rs. However, they didn't receive enough votes (67%) so they petitioned the court to reduce the percentage of affirmative votes to amend the CC&Rs. The court granted their request and the Article was added and recorded in 2007. Because we had a rental at the time that the lease restrictions were implemented, we were "grandfathered in" and allowed to continue renting the unit. The CC&Rs state that "at no time shall more than 48 or the 166 total units, initially excluding Grandfathered Units, be leased, rented or otherwise not Owner Occupied". It is my understanding that there were 66 units that were current rentals at the time that the CC&Rs were amended. That number is finally now at 48.

Last year, we decided to do a shortsale on our second residence as we were severly underwater in our mortgage and had taken a significant pay cut. Without any other option, we decided to move back in to our condo unit. We have been here now for over a year and have realized how much our family of four has outgrown our small 2-bedroom unit. We wish to move to a house and lease our unit again, but we are now being told that we can no longer rent out the unit because we gave up our "grandfathered" status when we became owner occupiers again. We are now on the waiting list to rent it out again, and are #28 on this list!

There is a section in the amended CC&Rs that deals specifically with "Grandfathered Units", which states:

...Units shown in the ASSOCIATION'S records as rented or leased on the date of the recording of this instrument shall be definied as "Grandfathered Units." Grandfathered Units shall be permitted to conintue to be rented or leased until such time as title to a Grandfathered Unit is transferred. Upon transfer of title, the affected Gradfathered Unit shall be subject to all provisions of this Article XVII, including but not limited to, the requirement for an initial period of 12 months as an Owner Occupied Unit. Provided, however, for puroses of this Article, transfers of title shall not include a gratuitous transfer from the Owner to a living trust for the benefit of said Owner.

Another Section contains language regarding "Reduction of Number of Grandfathered Units Over Time" and states:

...It is anticipated that upon the recording of this instrument, the total number of Grandfathered Units will exceed the 48 Leased Unit maximum of non-Owner Occupied Units. The Grandfathered Units over the 48 Leased Unit limit shall be reduced over time as Grandfathered Units are sold or transferred. The Leased Unit Eligibility List of the 48 Leased Units authorized for non-Owner Occupancy shall not have any Units added thereto until the number of Grandfathered Units is reduced to less than 48 Leased Units. Pending that, other Units may only be listed by Owners to await the opportunity of eventual opening(s) in the first 48 Leased Unit Eligibility List.

There is also a Preamble to the Article that states: "The membership finds and declares that promoting owner occupancy of Units is in the best interest of the Association's membership as a whole because"...and goes on to list these 9 reasons:

(1) Lenders may refuse to lend, or refuse to lend on preferred terms, for mortgages and deeds of trust in communities with a high percentage of renter occupancy;
(2) Owner occupants are more likely to respect the reules, regulations and other governing documents of the Association;
(3) Owner occupnats are more likely to maintain and care for both their individual Units and the Association's Common Area;
(4) Owner occupants are more likely to volunteer to serve the Associations as officers, directors, committee members and in other capacities;
(5) Owner occupants are less likely to default on the assessment obligations owed to the Association for their residences;
(6) Maintaining a high level of long-term residency by owner occupants with substantial investments in the community while limiting the number os short-term, transient occupancy by tenants will help preserve property values within the Assocation for the benefit of all members;
(7) Owner of leased Units are more likely to understand the Association's role and appreciate the importance of tenant compliance with the governing documents if the landlord has lived within the Association him/herself;
(8)Diligent Owner oversight of his/her tenants will benefit the entire membership and other residents; Owner oversight be encouraged by giving the BOard the authority to mandate Owner termination of the tenancy of any occupant who fails to respect the Association's governing documents; and
(9) FAIRNESS REQUIRES THAT THE OWNERS OF THE EXISITING UNITS CURRENTLY BEING RENTED OR LEASED BE PERMITTED TO CONTINUE TO DO SO UNTIL TITLE TO SUCH UNITS IS TRANSFERRED OR THE UNITS CEASE BEING RENTED OR LEASED

In our opinion, item #9 doesn't belong as a reason. This is the only language in the entire document regarding the unit ceasing to be rented or leased. This is the language that the Board is hanging on to tell us that we have waived our right as a grandfathered unit.

I have done some heavy research and am drafting a letter to our HOA. I am citing the following case to try to prove that a Preamble is not legally binding and cannot be held up in a court of law: Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11, 25 S. Ct. 358, 49 L. Ed. 643 [1905]. This case ruled that the Preamble of the Constitution was not judicially enforceable.

It is our position that a ā€œGrandfathered Unitā€ as defined by Article XVII maintains its status as such until the unit is sold or title to the unit is transferred. The ā€œGrandfathered Unitā€ should not give up its right to be rented or leased if it becomes Owner Occupied again at any time.

Do to the current housing crisis and economic climate, we are now underwater in our condo mortgage and thus, can't sell it to break even. Foreclosure is not an option for us. We would like to be able to purchase another home and put our family in a much better long-term financial position. This HOA restriction is severely impacting our upward mobility.

We will be consulting with a Real Estate Attorney and exploring the legalities of this Article and the interpretation of what it means to have a "grandfathered unit" as defined in the amended CC&Rs.

Also, there is no provision for a hardship exclusion.

Can anyone offer some personal experience, advice, regarding the situation of rental restrictions? How to get out of them? How they hold up in today's tough economic times? What the liklihood of fighting it is if it wasn't originally passed with 67% of membership approval, etc...

Thank you!
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
First off you don't need a real estate attorney. You need one that specializes in HOA's or Contractual laws. Your dealing with a corporation not real estate. A general law practioner may help as well. Do some research into attorney options first.

I have an issue with HOA's imposing rental restrictions. I don't believe they have the right to do it. Rental use is up to your mortgage company NOT the HOA. This little issue is often misunderstood by HOA's and then written in their documentation. Which does NOT make it entirely enforceable. I would ask your lawyer if indeed a HOA has this power and can restrict rentals.

What is the penalty if you do rent? Honestly that is another area a HOA overlooks. What happens if your caught? How they going to catch you if you continue to pay your dues which your responsible for only. The good news that your dues will be tax deductible and so can the legal fees if it's on investment property.

I know NOT information you would expect from a former HOA president...However, I may agree for rental restrictions in a HOA. It is one of those falacies of the HOA that just isn't enforceable unless further steps are taken. That would include the HOA getting a copy of the rental agreement, having a punishment, and Hardship variances...

Former HOA President
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AlisonP2 on 03/26/2012 2:19 PM

...Units shown in the ASSOCIATION'S records as rented or leased on the date of the recording of this instrument shall be definied as "Grandfathered Units." Grandfathered Units shall be permitted to conintue to be rented or leased until such time as title to a Grandfathered Unit is transferred. Upon transfer of title, the affected Gradfathered Unit shall be subject to all provisions of this Article XVII, including but not limited to, the requirement for an initial period of 12 months as an Owner Occupied Unit. Provided, however, for puroses of this Article, transfers of title shall not include a gratuitous transfer from the Owner to a living trust for the benefit of said Owner.

...It is anticipated that upon the recording of this instrument, the total number of Grandfathered Units will exceed the 48 Leased Unit maximum of non-Owner Occupied Units. The Grandfathered Units over the 48 Leased Unit limit shall be reduced over time as Grandfathered Units are sold or transferred. The Leased Unit Eligibility List of the 48 Leased Units authorized for non-Owner Occupancy shall not have any Units added thereto until the number of Grandfathered Units is reduced to less than 48 Leased Units. Pending that, other Units may only be listed by Owners to await the opportunity of eventual opening(s) in the first 48 Leased Unit Eligibility List.

I am not an attorney; however, if my documents had the above bold statements and my unit was considered a "Grandfathered Unit" I would not ask. I would rent my unit if needed and if they attempted to fine or say differently I would send them the information you posted from governing documents and ask them to please provide me proof that the title to my "Grandfathered Unit" has been sold or transferred to another entity.

The sections posted do not state until no longer rented … they state grandfathered until title is ā€œsold or transferredā€. Now this may not have been their intent, as the intent potentially was possibly to continue until no longer rented or leased but that is not what is stated. My humble opinion is you did not lose the grandfather status. LOL … but be sure to let me know if your attorney states different as I would be very curious as to why they think so and under what legal statute.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It looks like the only standard they are keeping you to is the "Fairness doctrine". The 9 reasons they stated are reasons for limiting rentals but NOT rules. They just want to limit rentals because of these reasons for fairness of the other owners. You rent out your place you risk being called "Unfair". Can you live with that? Plus understand the effect your renting may have on the HOA if you do? It's a darn if you7 do and a darner if you don't...Unless your HOA has a true system that monitors rentals in the HOA, I don't see why you can't rent it out.

Former HOA President
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Hi Alison,

I think Janet is correct--you have NOT transferred or sold your unit. I'm not attorney either, but whatever the intent, it appears that you can rent out your unit again.

Good luck!
AlisonP2 (California)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Thank you all for taking the time to respond. I do feel like we are able to rent the unit and I feel even more strengthened in my opinion after reading your thoughts on the matter. I will let you know what attorney says if it comes to that. I am hoping that a letter will be sufficient.

In answer to Melissa's question, yes, there are fines if you rent when you are unable to. They did not establish the fines in the CC&Rs, but have set them at first violation is $250, second $500, third $750 and fourth and any violation thereafter is $1000 per month in violation. We live in a small complex with a HOA Board, Office Manager and Site Manager that are all retired and very nosy. They are definitely aware of which units are rented and which are owner occupied. Tenants have to check in upon renting a unit here. They even patrol the pools during summer time and have handed out passes to ensure that there are not any unauthorized users.

Thanks again!
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Here's a piece of additional "bad" advice that someone like me should NOT proprogate...Fines can NOT be used for the basis of foreclosure or liens. Each state may be different but most don't allow an HOA to take aways someone's home based on unpaid fines. So enforcing the fines in your case may not be possible. It is something you may ask your lawyer. It is yet another one of those "falacies" of a HOA that has many owners paying money for something that isn't enforceable. If your HOA doesn't have a fine schedule established properly they can't enforce the fines.

Basically, fines have no teeth in most HOA's. They only snag those willing to be bitten. A serious consideration you should find more about. Sorry to the HOA world that I let that little tidbit out of the bag...Bad ex-president...

Former HOA President
JenniferC9 (California)
Posts: 1
Posted:
I appreciate the information on this thread. My husband and I also have a condo in California. We moved out of state due to a job change and are prohibited from renting out our unit because CC&Rs were amended 3 months before we purchased our home in 2006. All existing homeowners (including those not currently renting out units) were grandfathered in to either continue renting their units or do so in the future. Anyone who purchased after the CC&Rs were amended cannot rent it out. I know for a fact that at least two other units purchased after the ban have been rented out and to my knowledge there were no financial consequences levied on the violators. We tried to take the moral high road and asked our HOA for an exception (including an offer of cash to buy the privilege back to rent) and were told no. We will now be pursuing arbitration and/or legal action.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/28/2012 6:23 AM
Here's a piece of additional "bad" advice that someone like me should NOT proprogate...Fines can NOT be used for the basis of foreclosure or liens. Each state may be different but most don't allow an HOA to take aways someone's home based on unpaid fines. So enforcing the fines in your case may not be possible. It is something you may ask your lawyer. It is yet another one of those "falacies" of a HOA that has many owners paying money for something that isn't enforceable. If your HOA doesn't have a fine schedule established properly they can't enforce the fines.

Basically, fines have no teeth in most HOA's. They only snag those willing to be bitten. A serious consideration you should find more about. Sorry to the HOA world that I let that little tidbit out of the bag...Bad ex-president...

It is good thing you don't live in our HOA...fines will get you sent to collections and possibly court or you can lose your house from it.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Allison:

Here is my two cents...I think you are kind of stuck. Having gone back to live in the place for over a year in my opinion qualified you as an owner and not a rentor anymore and took away your granfathered privileges.
AlisonP2 (California)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Brad - I respect your opinion, but disagree. If we gave up our grandfathered right, then this should be clearly stated in the amended CC&Rs. If you read the quoted language as originally posted, you would see that a grandfathered status is not removed by moving back into a rental unit, only if title is sold or transferred, which it has not been. There is no language that we would be qualified as an owner again for moving back in, regardless of the length of stay.

Melissa - there are fines imposed on residents all the time in our HOA. They HOA has been successful in working with legal counsel to authorize liens on properties (I think this has more to do with owners not paying their HOA dues).
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Look at your STATE laws NOT your HOA's in regards if a HOA can lien or foreclose for fines. You may be shocked to find out they can't. The HOA's rules can't supercede the State or local laws. If a HOA has filed a lien or foreclosure it is most likely for unpaid dues or special assessments. Late fees or interest on unpaid amounts are penalties than fines.

HOA's unfornately have really poor punishments for violating of rules. Without an established fining schedule or defined punishments in it's documentation, fines are hard to enforce. If you believe fines can be enforced, they can be. If you don't, then you can find a way to fight them...Again bad advice from an ex HOA president...

Former HOA President
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/30/2012 10:01 PM
Look at your STATE laws NOT your HOA's in regards if a HOA can lien or foreclose for fines. You may be shocked to find out they can't. The HOA's rules can't supercede the State or local laws. If a HOA has filed a lien or foreclosure it is most likely for unpaid dues or special assessments. Late fees or interest on unpaid amounts are penalties than fines.

HOA's unfornately have really poor punishments for violating of rules. Without an established fining schedule or defined punishments in it's documentation, fines are hard to enforce. If you believe fines can be enforced, they can be. If you don't, then you can find a way to fight them...Again bad advice from an ex HOA president...

That is all fine and dandy...our lawyer said we can...don't move to our subdivision then you will be ok
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Allison:

Here is my two cents...I think you are granfathered in and can rent your unit. I see the preamble as sort of an introduction/reasoning/salesmanship, etc. to the Bylaws but it is not the actual Bylaws.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Of course your lawyer says you can. He's on your side. I bet he also knows that he's hired to defend you if someone challenges you on the fines. That is his/her job is it not? If I were to hire a lawyer for me, he'd definetely prove the HOA had no means of levering a lien or foreclosure against me for unpaid fines. They could do it for unpaid dues, assessments, and money they are out repairing something I refused to correct. Otherwise, this whole fining thing in a HOA can be a bunch of hot air IF your state doesn't allow such activities. Just sayin...

Former HOA President
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/31/2012 6:56 AM
Of course your lawyer says you can. He's on your side. I bet he also knows that he's hired to defend you if someone challenges you on the fines. That is his/her job is it not? If I were to hire a lawyer for me, he'd definetely prove the HOA had no means of levering a lien or foreclosure against me for unpaid fines. They could do it for unpaid dues, assessments, and money they are out repairing something I refused to correct. Otherwise, this whole fining thing in a HOA can be a bunch of hot air IF your state doesn't allow such activities. Just sayin...

we will see...sending folks to collections now for unpaid fines and they have liens on their home.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Say, Alison, davis-sterling.com is a wonderful site for all kinds of CA HOA info. Here's what these attorneys say about fines in Cali:

COLLECTING FINES

1. Suspend Privileges. Sometimes the best option is to suspend a person's privileges until the fines are paid. However, the association may need to amend its governing documents before implementing this strategy.

2. Small Claims Court. Associations can sue for fines in small claims court. The benefit is that there is very little expense involved and an abstract of judgment can be recorded against the owner's property.

3. Superior Court. If the fines are over $5,000, associations can file an action in superior court. If the association is awarded a judgment for the fines, an abstract of judgment can be recorded against the owner's property.

4. Judicial Foreclosure. Because the prohibition on fines in liens only applies to trustee trustee sales, associations may include monetary penalties (fines) in actions for judicial foreclosures. Unfortunately, collecting them means waiting for the owner to become delinquent in paying his assessments before taking action.
No Liens Allowed. Fines cannot be collected through non-judicial foreclosures (trustee sales) despite any authorizing language that might be contained in an association's governing documents. Civ. Code §1367.1(e). Monetary penalties cannot be treated as assessments and cannot be included in delinquent assessment liens.

AlisonP2 (California)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11 on 03/31/2012 2:53 PM
Say, Alison, davis-sterling.com is a wonderful site for all kinds of CA HOA info. Here's what these attorneys say about fines in Cali:

COLLECTING FINES

1. Suspend Privileges. Sometimes the best option is to suspend a person's privileges until the fines are paid. However, the association may need to amend its governing documents before implementing this strategy.

2. Small Claims Court. Associations can sue for fines in small claims court. The benefit is that there is very little expense involved and an abstract of judgment can be recorded against the owner's property.

3. Superior Court. If the fines are over $5,000, associations can file an action in superior court. If the association is awarded a judgment for the fines, an abstract of judgment can be recorded against the owner's property.

4. Judicial Foreclosure. Because the prohibition on fines in liens only applies to trustee trustee sales, associations may include monetary penalties (fines) in actions for judicial foreclosures. Unfortunately, collecting them means waiting for the owner to become delinquent in paying his assessments before taking action.
No Liens Allowed. Fines cannot be collected through non-judicial foreclosures (trustee sales) despite any authorizing language that might be contained in an association's governing documents. Civ. Code §1367.1(e). Monetary penalties cannot be treated as assessments and cannot be included in delinquent assessment liens.


Thanks Carol - I spent quite a lot of time reading the Davis Stirling Act when doing my research. I am not interested so much in the fines that an HOA can impose. We have no intention of directly violating the rules to do what we want to do. Rather, I posted this question with the quoted language from my HOA's CC&Rs, to see what other's interpretation of the language was regarding our "grandfathered" status. If we are stuck, then we are stuck and I don't have any intention of breaking the rules. However, I do believe that we are able to rent our unit and just wanted the opinions of others who may have dealt with amended CC&Rs and/or a similar situation.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Hey, Alison; as I wrote earlier, in agreement with Janet, I think that you can rent out your unit.

One reason for posting the davis-sterling.com cite was to demonstrate to other posters that laws do differ from state to state.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
Fines cannot be collected through non-judicial foreclosures (trustee sales) despite any authorizing language that might be contained in an association's governing documents.


ooookaaaaay, ?can they be collected through a JUDICIAL foreclosure?
EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446
Posted:
AlisonP2,

1..You posted: ā€(9) FAIRNESS REQUIRES THAT THE OWNERS OF THE EXISITING UNITS CURRENTLY BEING RENTED OR LEASED BE PERMITTED TO CONTINUE TO DO SO UNTIL TITLE TO SUCH UNITS IS TRANSFERRED OR THE UNITS CEASE BEING RENTED OR LEASED.ā€

Is that the only place in the ā€œrenting amendmentā€ where the words ā€œcease being rented or leased appear?

If so, IMO those words bear little weight. Cease being rented for how long? One (1) day, one (1) Month, one (1) Year?

It seems to me, if this was to be a condition, that there would be words such as: ā€œA Unit which is leased or rented on the date that this Declaration is recorded . . . may be continuously leased or rented . . . even though the tenants or terms change.

A Unit shall be deemed to be continuously rented or leased, even if not under a written document, for a period not to exceed . . . (SOME PERIOD OF TIME) . . . such as 180 days or one year, to allow its Owner to consummate a lease or rental arrangement with another tenant.

2. I do not follow California Condo law closely but I do subscribe to a Newsletter from Beth A. Grimm, PLC. Her website is:
http://www.californiacondoguru.com:80/

A recent newsletter (July 2011) that you might find interesting is:
http://myemail.constantcontact.com/NEW-SCOOP-ON-RENTAL-RESTRICTIONS-LAW-SIGNED-JULY-8-.html?soid=1101712478084&aid=tyEE6Ei6mbc

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