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How the Heck to Enforce Rules

Started by AlexM1 • 16 replies • 2018 views

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AlexM1 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 287
Posted:
Around 6 PM one evening, the police were called by one resident and joined by two other residents concerning the rowdy and loud behavior of the resident(renter) of one of the condo units and her two children and four girls were renters from another unit in the complex.(that were all together). I arrived for another purpose at the same time the police arrived. Complaints were also voiced stating that the four girls and the children of the renter at one unit were jumping in and out of the pool fountain (which posted signs forbit such actions). They stated that there were many people at the pool but due to the loudness and rowdiness of the individuals mentioned above, they all left the pool area

The police stated to the woman who initiated the complaint that it was a civil matter (which I knew) and they (the police) could do nothing about it. They stated that they could NOT kick them out because they are paid residents (residents that are individuals who paid to live at the condo complex).

The OWNER is responsible for anything that his/her tenant does as it pertains to actions within the condo Complex. That seems to be the ONLY recourse that we have as a board.

We then try to find out where the renter lives within the complex so the owner can be cited but in all cases, the guilty person(s) will not give any location which makes it nearly impossiblse for the HOA Board to do anything to remedy the situation

It is the responsibility of the owner to dictate the rules to their tenants and if the owner does NOT mention any of the rules to the tenants then they are to be held responsible.
We, as an HOA, have rules…. In many cases, the rules are posted. But in most all cases, we have NO real means to enforce any of the rules. In most all cases, we find ourselves at the mercy of the tenant.

This happens too frequently. What do other condo complexes do to remedy or attempt to remedy this situation of unruly people at the pool area so much so that other residents who are enjoying their time at the pool have to leave due to the unruly actions of a few?
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi Alex:

Even though the police could not enforce was their a police report filed regarding the incident? The report might then have the address of the individuals who had the police called against them, as the police would potentially have asked them where they live. Just an idea to maybe determine the address.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
As I think about this more and if you still do not obtain an address via a police report, then what I would probably do is:

1. Next time they violate the regulations I would have a couple of board members approach (always good if possible to have a witness) and ask where they live, along with having them escort me to their residence to speak with their parents. At the residence they better have an adult to vouch for them or they better have a key to unlock the door. With one of those two items you will know for sure they are residents.

2. If they refuse to give an address I would state … Well by golly we have two choices here in that (1) you can escort us to your residence as proof you live here and so we can speak with your parents regarding your rule violations or (2) we can call the police and you can either escort them to your residence or they can maybe arrest you for trespassing, and your parents can pick you up with proof of residence from the police department. Either way we will have the residence information, so we can do this the easy way or the hard way … your choice.

Also, what do you have regarding fines? You need to be sure they are stiff enough after the first offense. If the owner gets smacked enough times they will then maybe choose to evict the problem renters.

AlexM1 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 287
Posted:
No, no police report made as they said that they have NO SAY SO whatsoever.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
If the violators will not tell you where they live, then it must be assumed they are trespassing. Call the police. it IS now a police matter.

Once they tell the police where they live, you will know.

AlexM1 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 287
Posted:
The police are one of the problems we have... they will not tell us where they live... I am sure they know but will not tell us.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AlexM1 on 03/12/2012 6:43 AM
The police are one of the problems we have... they will not tell us where they live... I am sure they know but will not tell us.

Alex

I believe one can fine an owner for the actions of their renters. Maybe a warning letter to the owner as a starting point.

I would wonder in an association can declare someone a nuisance and ban them from common area usage, such as the pool?

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
If the police refuse to tell you where they live, then simply call the police EACH AND EVERY TIME you see those people.

they are trespassing.

Pretty soon, the police will tell you.

Or, you can file a FOIA request, and see what the public records say on the police blotter.

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Alex

if they were called out because of rowdy and loud behavior is that not a police matter (noise disturbance/disorderly conduct)? I would have the residents email the chief of police and ask where the threshold with disorderly and noisy behavior is.

If their behavior is to the point where it is unwelcome issue them a no trespass order to the common area and ask the police department to do their job.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
How are these people getting into your pool area?

At the very least, there should be a locked gate and only owners should have a key. Changing the lock once in a while will cut down on the number of unauthorized keys.

Better yet is an electronic card-operated lock (like a hotel room). Each card would have a discrete code, allowing management to know who is using the pool. It would also allow suspending an owner's pool privileges.

An acquaintance who used to own apartment complexes once told me that the facilities that had pools always had more tenant problems than those without pools.

SimoneT (Florida)
Posts: 116
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianB on 03/12/2012 11:46 AM
If the police refuse to tell you where they live, then simply call the police EACH AND EVERY TIME you see those people.

they are trespassing.

Pretty soon, the police will tell you.

Or, you can file a FOIA request, and see what the public records say on the police blotter.


Hello BrianB:

What is an FOIA? How does this help? Thank you for your reply.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
FOIA is Freedom of Information Act.

Almost all government documents, paperwork, etc. is public, by law. Getting it, however, can be tricky. One method is to ask politely. A lot of times, that works. When it doesn't, the next step is to file a FOIA request, an official 'demand' by a private citizen for the government agency to supply/provide the information that by law, they should be providing. Typically, that works, but not always. SOmetimes, an agency denies a FOIA request, in which case you get to sue, and go to court, where the courts will 99.999999999999% of the time side with the citizen, and force the agency to comply.

And then, there are still agencies who don't.

And that's our transparent government.

To file a FOIA request, you typically only need to send a nice, polite letter with the information you are requesting to the head of the agency. IN the case of a city police, it could be

To whom it may concern; Under the US Freedom of Information Act, I am hereby requesting all copies of documents, paperwork, or information available about the events of August 18, 2010, in which patrol officers responded to the Oakwood Community Apartments on a complaint call, at or around 2300 hours. This would include all FOIA available information, including the incident report, write up, dispatch notes, and officer's notes from the scene and after, including duty reports and shift notes written by the officers involved, or peripherally involved members of the police department.

I agree to pay up to 25 cents per sheet for copying costs, not to exceed $10, and I can be reached at...

This letter would go to the police chief, the Public Information Officer, or someone pretty high up in the organization.

Here's the federal FOIA page.. http://www.foia.gov/

and each state is very likely to have a similar page.
NicoleC4 (Illinois)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Alex,
We have the same problem at my townhouse association. We have a no renter's policy, however we all agreed to make an exception for a single mother and her young daughter after she gave us a sob story about being beat up by her husband and having to move in so she could register her child for school. We also agreed they could bring their dog (we have a slightly silly dog policy as well). Turns out, the WHOLE STORY WAS A LIE. She got KICKED OUT OF A FARMHOUSE she was renting for having too many animals. She also moved in her teenage son and boyfriend. They have 5 cats which are outside 24/7, climbing in the roof, fence and actually attacking a guest. They have 2 dogs which they NEVER pick up after. We have had a million meeting just to discuss the darn dog poop and no one wants to fine her because she said she wants a DNA test to prove its from her dog. Seriously. Her father bought the place for her and we have tried to talk with him but he helps with nothing. Her son hangs out on their porch with his friends and yells like "suck my beep." She found a sick raccoon and was throwing food on the deck to feed it. The worst event was when her boyfriend slammed into a tree down the street at 1am, left because he didn't have a license, and proceeded to pull his BURNING CAR INTO OUR GARAGE (they are all connected)and closed the door. The police followed the car fluid down the street into our driveway and gave him a few tickets! The police would not give us a copy of the report - said we would have to file a freedom of info form or something. We called an emergency meeting, voted he was not allowed back on the property and 2 weeks later he was back. No one wants to do anything about any of this because they are all scared of her. I can't really blame them because she is obviously crazy. The police said it was civil, which I knew, but we hoped a copy of the police report would help our case whenever the rest of the owners get fed up and agree to hire a lawyer. Basically these people just do what they want and the normal people have to deal with it.
JM10 (California)
Posts: 503
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NicoleC4 on 04/11/2012 10:01 AM
Alex,
We have the same problem at my townhouse association. We have a no renter's policy, however we all agreed to make an exception for a single mother and her young daughter after she gave us a sob story about being beat up by her husband and having to move in so she could register her child for school. We also agreed they could bring their dog (we have a slightly silly dog policy as well). Turns out, the WHOLE STORY WAS A LIE. She got KICKED OUT OF A FARMHOUSE she was renting for having too many animals. She also moved in her teenage son and boyfriend. They have 5 cats which are outside 24/7, climbing in the roof, fence and actually attacking a guest. They have 2 dogs which they NEVER pick up after. We have had a million meeting just to discuss the darn dog poop and no one wants to fine her because she said she wants a DNA test to prove its from her dog. Seriously. Her father bought the place for her and we have tried to talk with him but he helps with nothing. Her son hangs out on their porch with his friends and yells like "suck my beep." She found a sick raccoon and was throwing food on the deck to feed it. The worst event was when her boyfriend slammed into a tree down the street at 1am, left because he didn't have a license, and proceeded to pull his BURNING CAR INTO OUR GARAGE (they are all connected)and closed the door. The police followed the car fluid down the street into our driveway and gave him a few tickets! The police would not give us a copy of the report - said we would have to file a freedom of info form or something. We called an emergency meeting, voted he was not allowed back on the property and 2 weeks later he was back. No one wants to do anything about any of this because they are all scared of her. I can't really blame them because she is obviously crazy. The police said it was civil, which I knew, but we hoped a copy of the police report would help our case whenever the rest of the owners get fed up and agree to hire a lawyer. Basically these people just do what they want and the normal people have to deal with it.

Dear Nicole:

I really feel for you because you have a person who is obviously an animal hoarder. We left our condo and are trying to sell because we live next door to someone with 10 pets in a three bedroom condo townhouse. Our CC&R only allow 2. They are, in my opinion, animal hoarders in their first stage.

First, what are the CC&R rules about pets? What are the local rules about pets? In many cases you can get humane pet traps for the cats and take them in. Most cities have a limit on the number of cats. If your condo has a leash policy, apply it to both cats and dogs.

What is your fine policy? Do you have rules that differentiate between repeat and continual? I'm going to assume that your CC&R do not allow for more than two animals. Thus continual fines would be for having pets over the limit. Repeat fines would be for having the pet off-leash when caught.

Often animal hoarders can claim the cat at-large isn't theirs. Capture and take the animal to the animal shelter.

Ask how to file papers to get the info about the car. In some cases, if you search a few weeks after the incident, you can find the report online. After that, you have to file papers. It is not that hard. Reporters do it all the time.

You know who the owner is, the woman's father. You can take that person to court. However, you have to have the community behind you. Animal collectors/hoarders can create healthy, safety and financial problems for the whole community. I don't know what the CC&R you have are like, but it should indicated you as a member can file a complaint and the board has to within a reasonable amount of time (60 days or something) address it.

Animal hoarders are rarely cured and they can't be expected to tell the truth or pay attention to rules/civil codes.
JM10 (California)
Posts: 503
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AlexM1 on 03/11/2012 1:28 PM

We then try to find out where the renter lives within the complex so the owner can be cited but in all cases, the guilty person(s) will not give any location which makes it nearly impossiblse for the HOA Board to do anything to remedy the situation


If they won't give their location, then as far as you are concerned they don't live there. That's not impossible because in my younger days some friends would often pretend to either be part of an apartment community or visiting someone there. I actually lived at that complex at one time and some of the supposed visitors were creepy.

FredB4 (Ohio)
Posts: 375
Posted:
I assume you informed the police that you were on the board of directors for the Condominium Association and that you needed to know in order to inform the owner of the violations. That has worked for us in the past.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I say just keep calling the police and say the people are noisy and trespassing. Let them prove to the police they are not doing such.

Quite often an HOA gets involved in issues that are already covered by local laws such as dog leash laws, noise laws, parking, speeding, etc. when all someone has to do is call the police.

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