SUNSHINE LAWS

Started by SimoneT • 19 replies • 1977 views

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SimoneT (Florida)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Does anyone here know anything about Florida Sunshine Laws? Is it correct for our board to always have private meetings before we start our monthly meetings? They seem to talk about what they are going to be saying at our meetings, and prepare themselves ahead of time. Also, when someone went in one time, they got very angry, and told the person to get out, that we had another 5 minutes before our meeting. They are rude, obnoxious, demeaning, and just plain unprofessional and discriminatory. That is why we want them out.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Hi Simone:

Sunshine does not apply to HOA's; however, the other state statutes do state members at open meetings. Here is a response from the State Attorney General on the subject:

http://www.myfloridalegal.com/ago.nsf/Opinions/97F81AF820BDB7508525634D00631A03

SimoneT (Florida)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Good afternoon JanetB:

Thank you for that info. I will copy/post now and read. Have a great weekend!

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Simone

As you read what Janet suggested, you might want to pay attention to Executive Sessions.

Hope this helps.

CarolF (Florida)
Posts: 435

Posted:

If it has been determined that you are a Homeowners Association governed by FL statute 720, here is the "open meeting requirements" of that statute.

Section 720.303(2), Florida Statutes states that: "(a) A meeting of the board of directors of an association occurs whenever a quorum of the board gathers to conduct association business. All meetings of the board must be open to all members except for meetings between the board and its attorney with respect to proposed or pending litigation where the contents of the discussion would otherwise be governed by the attorney-client privilege. The provisions of this subsection shall also apply to the meetings of any committee or other similar body when a final decision will be made regarding the expenditure of association funds and to meetings of any body vested with the power to approve or disapprove architectural decisions with respect to a specific parcel of residential property owned by a member of the community."
The section goes on to provide that: "Notwithstanding any other law, meetings between the board or a committee and the association's attorney to discuss proposed or pending litigation or meetings of the board held for the purpose of discussing personnel matters are not required to be open to the members other than directors.

SimoneT (Florida)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarolF on 03/10/2012 2:40 PM
If it has been determined that you are a Homeowners Association governed by FL statute 720, here is the "open meeting requirements" of that statute.

Section 720.303(2), Florida Statutes states that: "(a) A meeting of the board of directors of an association occurs whenever a quorum of the board gathers to conduct association business. All meetings of the board must be open to all members except for meetings between the board and its attorney with respect to proposed or pending litigation where the contents of the discussion would otherwise be governed by the attorney-client privilege. The provisions of this subsection shall also apply to the meetings of any committee or other similar body when a final decision will be made regarding the expenditure of association funds and to meetings of any body vested with the power to approve or disapprove architectural decisions with respect to a specific parcel of residential property owned by a member of the community."
The section goes on to provide that: "Notwithstanding any other law, meetings between the board or a committee and the association's attorney to discuss proposed or pending litigation or meetings of the board held for the purpose of discussing personnel matters are not required to be open to the members other than directors.

Hello CarolF:

So, my understanding of this statement is that the Board should NOT meet before a monthly board meeting? Since the management company is "allowing" this, and also meeting with them, can a complaint be sent to Business and Professional Regulations?

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Simone

Reread what she said....they can meet in private....emphasis addded:

Section 720.303(2), Florida Statutes states that: "(a) A meeting of the board of directors of an association occurs whenever a quorum of the board gathers to conduct association business.

********All meetings of the board must be open to all members except for meetings between the board and its attorney with respect to proposed or pending litigation where the contents of the discussion would otherwise be governed by the attorney-client privilege.*******

The provisions of this subsection shall also apply to the meetings of any committee or other similar body when a final decision will be made regarding the expenditure of association funds and to meetings of any body vested with the power to approve or disapprove architectural decisions with respect to a specific parcel of residential property owned by a member of the community."

*********The section goes on to provide that: "Notwithstanding any other law, meetings between the board or a committee and the association's attorney to discuss proposed or pending litigation or meetings of the board held for the purpose of discussing personnel matters are not required to be open to the members other than directors.*********

Thus there are several ways they can meet in private. Also often called Executive Session.

So let us say I am on the BOD and we believe we have a pain in the butt member that keeps badgering us one way or another. We can have a private meeting with our lawyer to discuss what we can do about this pain in the butt member.

Now you can say what you want to say/accuse about what they discuss in private meetings....but they can have private meetings.

Hope this helps you better understand.

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

Yes, Re-read CarolF's excerpt. Also read your own Bylaws, which might state under what circumstances the Board may meet in Executive Session.

Here in Calif., we directors also may and do meet prior to our Open Meeting in Executive Session. In Executive Session, per state statutes and our own Bylaws, we only discuss potential litigation, contracts in formation, personnel matters & homeowner discipline. So Fla. might be a little different. If a homeowner were to barge in, we'd ask her/him to leave, but we'd be polite about it!

SimoneT (Florida)
Posts: 116

Posted:

"So let us say I am on the BOD and we believe we have a pain in the butt member that keeps badgering us one way or another. We can have a private meeting with our lawyer to discuss what we can do about this pain in the butt member.

Now you can say what you want to say/accuse about what they discuss in private meetings....but they can have private meetings.

Hope this helps you better understand."

Hello JohnC:

LMOL, you ARE sooooo funny sir. Thanks for the warning. But, you first have to prove HOW I am badgering the board. There are many unhappy here. So, you would have to DEAL with many of us. Not just one.

I do NOT say anything that they are saying BECAUSE I AM NOT THERE, and I am not a fly on the wall, nor do I ACCUSE them of what they DISCUSS or not. One member asked me to ask about Sunshine Laws and I did.

And yes, this helped me understand better. I am not as stupid as I thought. Thank you for your reply.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Here is a consideration. Most HOA's have OPEN meetings. Some have executive sessions mixed in. There is nothing wrong with that as long as it is disclosed at the open meeting the decision reached by the executive meeting. Unless it is a private or legal matter then they can just give an overview of the situation without revealing every detail.

Here's an example of meetings in a HOA and why it's a good thing the board may meet prior to a meeting. Consider that in our HOA we ONLY met ONCE a MONTH to discuss HOA business. That means we ALL took that time to discuss issues in front of all who attended. Well we could look very disorganized and delay many decisions if we didn't take a few minutes for us board members to get on the same page and know what was going on in the HOA. How do you feel when you hear a board member in a meeting say something like "This is the first time I've heard of this"...? Then a big long discussion has to take place and nothing gets done.

To explain the process more. A light burns out on top of the clubhouse that provides lighting to the clubhouse entrance and general area. It could be considered a safety issue. The HOA can't just go out and buy this light or hire a contractor to go fix it. They have to wait until the Monthly meeting to be open about the costs and need. Well, because that light needs a licensed contractor the board has to gather bids. That goes on to the NEXT meeting to review. So now it is a MONTH later. That meeting they decide on the contractor and the cost of the light. It then takes 2 more weeks before the contractor can show up to do the job. So we are up to 2 months and 3 weeks of a burnt out light.

Now is when the "Incompetent board" comes up by disgruntle members who accuse the board of not being able to change out a lightbulb. They must be recalled or they just are "shady". Well the truth is that the board went by procedure. Do you see anywhere the board didn't follow procedure? Meeting once a month and being OPEN about the expenses can take over 3 months for a simple decision to be resolved. That is the EARLIEST this could happen in most cases.

However, IF the board can have a meeting prior to the monthly meeting or have discussions amongst themselves, then the timeline can be reduced significantly. It may just take the 1 meeting to resolve the issue. Meaning that 3 weeks prior to the 1st monthly meeting the board members could have collect the contractor bids, found the cost of the light bulb, and presented the information coherently in front of ALL the members. The board is STILL being OPEN with the membership with the expense. It is just the process was sped up behind doors to eliminate the delay and to get things done.

It is a double edged sword many board members in a HOA live by. If you go directly by procedure alone things may take a LOOOONG time to resolve or be addressed. Making it seem like the board is incompetent or lazy. If you allow a board to have a private executive discussiion behind doors so they can speed up the issues, it comes out they are "Hiding" things from the membership. The truth is they are really "Hiding" a bunch of talking you don't have to listen to. Not very sneaky or deceitful at all...Just a way to get things addressed without unneccessary feedback from those who don't make the decisions.

Former HOA President

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

Simone, first it is true that there are boards that are secretive and hide their decisions in executive session. After we "good guys" took over our board via election, I reviewed the executive session minutes of the previous two years and numerous items were discussed and decisions made that should have been made in open meetings. This is what we suspected, but we had no evidence--and, it seems, neither do you.

In Calif. (and it appears in Fla.) we can call emergency meetings of the board or special meetings of the board to handle situations like Melissa's burned out light--a safety issue. We wouldn't wait for our monthly meeting. We do have a property mgr., who'd collect bids prior to the special or emergency board meeting.

Also in an emergency, we can take action without a meeting, i.e., online, so long as every director agrees with the decision in writing.

In these cases the minutes of the emergency or special meeting would be approved at the next open meeting of the board. The online approval would be ratified at the next open meeting.

What we may not do in Cali is discuss agenda items behind closed doors that are scheduled for a open meeting of the board. We directors have a Directors Report about a week in advance of the meeting, that contains background materials and which gives directors plenty of time to think about the topics. At the open meeting, homeowners can see and hear us deliberate, discuss & vote on each agenda item.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Simon, you are correct in that it is inappropriate and against the law for the BOD to hold these private meetings UNLESS it is with the attorney present for the reasons allowed by law. In other words they can't get around the law by having the attorney there and disusing things other than legal matters. You can bring this to the BOD's notice, either by a letter or in the public part of the meeting but if they don't change it would most likely take a lawsuit to stop them. As to filing a complaint against the MC, you need to remember the MC works for the Board not the other way around, they have no power to stop the Board from having the meetings.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

Glen, based on this excerpt from the last sentence of CarolF's citation of FL statute 720, I don't believe that an attorney must be present when the board meets in executive session to discuss personnel matters: " . . . meetings of the board held for the purpose of discussing personnel matters are not required to be open to the members other than directors."

Tomorrow night, as just one example, we will meet in executive session to, along with homeowner hearings and consideration of filing a lien, our PM will give us the annual review of our Manager Assistant. Our attorney doesn't need to be present.

MartinH2 (Florida)
Posts: 24

Posted:

SimoneT (Florida)
The law in Florida is crystal clear, anytime a majority of the Board of Directors talks to one another about anything dealing with HOA business, except "All meetings of the board must be open to all members except for meetings between the board and its attorney with respect to proposed or pending litigation where the contents of the discussion would otherwise be governed by the attorney-client privilege." then the BOD must allow any homeowner into the meeting. Further, they must publicize the meeting date and time in a timely manner to comply with Florida 720 HOA law.

If a CAMS Property Manager allows these illegal meeting to take place here is what I would do:

1. I would mail a certified letter to the Property Manager that stated my objection to the illegal meetings with a copy of the Florida Law. I would copy in certified mail the President of the BOD and all of the members as well as the President of the Property Management Company who supplied the Property Manager to your HOA.

2. In my letter I would request a return letter confirming the intention all of the people involved that they will comply with the law.

3. If one more illegal meeting takes place I would personally sue every BOD member, the property manager and the company he is from for violating my contractual agreement with the HOA that I signed when I bought my home. I would seek compensatory and punitive damages.

Good luck

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Martin

Are you saying a BOD cannot have a private meeting (Executive Session) without an attorney being present?

John

SimoneT (Florida)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Hello MelissaP:

Many in my community seem to think that Sunshine Law applies to us. We UNDERSTAND that the board needs to meet with the lawyer sometimes for legal or personal matters. This is not the case. The lawyer was in our Annual/Voting Meeting, but he is NOT in any of the regular monthly meetings. The "problem" lies with the board meeting EVERYTIME for one hour BEFORE we have a monthly meeting. If the monthly meeting is scheduled for 7pm, the board meets at 6pm. The community feels that the board is not being transparent.

DON'T KILL THE MESSENGER, LOL!!!

SimoneT (Florida)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MartinH2 on 03/26/2012 10:31 AM
SimoneT (Florida)
The law in Florida is crystal clear, anytime a majority of the Board of Directors talks to one another about anything dealing with HOA business, except "All meetings of the board must be open to all members except for meetings between the board and its attorney with respect to proposed or pending litigation where the contents of the discussion would otherwise be governed by the attorney-client privilege." then the BOD must allow any homeowner into the meeting. Further, they must publicize the meeting date and time in a timely manner to comply with Florida 720 HOA law.

If a CAMS Property Manager allows these illegal meeting to take place here is what I would do:

1. I would mail a certified letter to the Property Manager that stated my objection to the illegal meetings with a copy of the Florida Law. I would copy in certified mail the President of the BOD and all of the members as well as the President of the Property Management Company who supplied the Property Manager to your HOA.

2. In my letter I would request a return letter confirming the intention all of the people involved that they will comply with the law.

3. If one more illegal meeting takes place I would personally sue every BOD member, the property manager and the company he is from for violating my contractual agreement with the HOA that I signed when I bought my home. I would seek compensatory and punitive damages.

Good luck

Hello MartinH:

Thank you for that info. Many of the older folks in my community believe that they are meeting illegally. I have read the above statute, but there are a few with different opinions. Like I stated, the board's meeting with the attorney for legal or personal matters is NOT in question, it is WHEN they are meeting, BEFORE THE MONTHLY MEETING that has a few questioning the boards transparency. Thank you for your reply.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I think they are being very tranparent and getting their act together. There is NOTHING worse than a board meeting where the board members are NOT on the same page. If the board were to phone or email eachother outside the meeting people would judge they were making decisions behind people's backs. The reality is that the board was elected to represent the general membership on DAILY operations. They anwser the phone calls, pay the bills, handle complaints, address emergencies, and yes sometimes do business. ALL so you don't have to.

The meetings are then OPEN to discuss the decisions the HOA is facing or what actions have been completed. It is NOT for the general membership to pass judgement on their actions because every action they make is under constant scrutiny. The purpose of the meetings are to keep the genral membership informed.

I would have LOVED to have an hour prior to our meetings to address issues with our board since we did meet once a month. We could use that time to be on the same page or able to anser questions of the membership properly. Otherwise my response had to be " I will check into that after the meeting..." How annoying is that?

Plus collection reports are for Board members ONLY. It would have been nice to be able to discuss that privately so we could discuss payment plans 0f people who had financial issues not in front of everyone. The membership just needed to know the number behind members and the actions we were taking. Nothing more.

Stand in the shoes of the other people...Remember ther is NO "They or Them" in a HOA. It is YOU and your neighbors. YOU are a "they" to everybody else...

Former HOA President

SimoneT (Florida)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/26/2012 2:23 PM
I think they are being very tranparent and getting their act together. There is NOTHING worse than a board meeting where the board members are NOT on the same page. If the board were to phone or email eachother outside the meeting people would judge they were making decisions behind people's backs. The reality is that the board was elected to represent the general membership on DAILY operations. They anwser the phone calls, pay the bills, handle complaints, address emergencies, and yes sometimes do business. ALL so you don't have to.

The meetings are then OPEN to discuss the decisions the HOA is facing or what actions have been completed. It is NOT for the general membership to pass judgement on their actions because every action they make is under constant scrutiny. The purpose of the meetings are to keep the genral membership informed.

I would have LOVED to have an hour prior to our meetings to address issues with our board since we did meet once a month. We could use that time to be on the same page or able to anser questions of the membership properly. Otherwise my response had to be " I will check into that after the meeting..." How annoying is that?

Plus collection reports are for Board members ONLY. It would have been nice to be able to discuss that privately so we could discuss payment plans 0f people who had financial issues not in front of everyone. The membership just needed to know the number behind members and the actions we were taking. Nothing more.

Stand in the shoes of the other people...Remember ther is NO "They or Them" in a HOA. It is YOU and your neighbors. YOU are a "they" to everybody else...

Thank you Melissa.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Hi Melissa:

LOL ... I could not agree with you more in that it would be awesome prep time for a board meeting, but in many states it potentially is not legal for majority of boards to meet without membership being able to attend.

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