Rogue HOA board...

Started by GregD4 • 29 replies • 3861 views

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GregD4 (Georgia)
Posts: 7

Posted:

This is a long story so I will give the Readers Digest version... Our new board got voted in under less than above board means (another discussion).
1. for 2011 the board refuses to disclose any accounting books, budget info or expenditures. We sent certified letters to board members and the HOA attorney requesting access to all books, with no answer.
2. they took one of our tennis courts and built a basketball court (no vote was taken and no money was in the budget for it). As you can imagine it brought undesirables and non-homeowners to the neighbor hood.
3. they locked, all summer long, the other tennis court with no reason why.
4. they said to save money they will shut down the pool for 2011 (costs about $6000 to $7000 to maintain for a summer)then spent $6000 on a pool cover (no vote and no money set aside in budget for pool cover).
5. they spent $1000 on a block party with no money allocated to it in budget.

I can keep going but you get the idea. We have tried approaching the homeowners but our small group is pointed out at each meeting as trouble makers by the HOA board. All we want is for the board to act in legal and professional manor... Any suggestions?

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

Attend meetings!

All these actions would have been discussed at meetings, motions made at that time, decisions made.

Why do you need to look at the "books"? If you went to the meetings, you would get the same financial reports as other board members - P/L and Balance Sheet. Those reports are supposed to be provided to you, by law. But not a sit down to go thru the "books."

(It sounds like the pool is not safe to be used and would HAVE to have a cover on it.)

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

A block party probably shouldn't be funded by HOA funds. Although many might disagree with that. Block parties are just "extras" and not a requirement of any HOA. It's more of a morale booster.

If you want change, you have to make it. Why can't you run for a board position? Or the other's in disagreement? You say the HOA didn't have the money for such items but yet you have them. Was there a loan made? A HOA is ONLY funded by it's members FOR it's members. So unless there was a loan involved, your HOA can't exceed it's grasp.

Bad idea to close a pool as that is NOT necessarily a cheap thing to do. It costs money to close a pool properly. Draining the water from it will just make it collapse on itself causing more issues. Burying it will still cost money to do. It's best to keep the pool for resale value for the homes. Having a pool is one of those amenities that attract potential buyers keeping the property values adequate or high. Getting rid of an amenity can be a double edged sword.

You and your neighbors need to attend meetings. I wonder if it's actual board decisions or is your HOA being ran by a Management company? Apathy can let a rogue management company do anything it wants. A management company is a subconractor to the board and should be doing what the board addresses them to do. Is this HOA under developer control still?

It's time to stop sending letters and time to show up and listen...

Former HOA President

GregD4 (Georgia)
Posts: 7

Posted:

I will clear a few things up:
1. First off we attended all the meetings and none of this stuff was discussed. It just happened. He said he did a 'straw poll' of a few residents as he went door to door. No budget was ever sent out or distributed at any meeting.
2. We want to look at the books because our covenants affords us that privilege plus the fact he has made all these purchases outside the budget. Our covenants states ANY home owner can request to review all the financial books of the HOA at anytime during normal business hours.
3. The pool needed only normal cleaning and purifying which happens after every winter.
I was President two years prior and I was able to give our community all the amenities afforded in the covenants so I know what I am talking about.

GregD4 (Georgia)
Posts: 7

Posted:

I was President two years prior and I was able to give our community all the amenities afforded in the covenants so I know what I am talking about. I have moved out of the subdivision into another subdivision so that makes me ineligible.
1. He refused to hold elections for 2012 so others attempting to get on the board has been made very difficult if not impossible.
2. The HOA did have some funds left from prior year but what the board spent wasn’t in the existing budget.
3. They fired the existing management company when they came into power thinking they can do it themselves. Now for 2012 they are looking into hiring a new management company (which by the way isn’t in the 2012 budget).
4. No developer.
5. We went to all meetings…

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

"He" = ONE person.

Where is the rest of the board on all this?

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Greg:

Three options:

1. Write letters to each and every board member/Management company and HOA Attorney outlining what you believe are illegal moves/ventures and request a special meeting of the membership to discuss.
2. Organize a recall effort
3. Sue them in court asking for a injunction and removal of the board and potential damages.

Bottomline, they can't make decisions without discussin in an open meeting, they can't close amenities without justification why. All that does is reduce property values and goes back on the "sales agreement" you had when you bought the home.

Block parties are fine, just should be budgeted for and should be within reason.

GregD4 (Georgia)
Posts: 7

Posted:

He, the President, manipulates the board to do what he wants. As you know being a board member is a thankless and part time job. Even though they were elected to do a job nobody tries. He was a community organizer in a former life and has never had a real job. He has no idea how the HOA is to be run legally. We need legal help for sure but we have little to no money to stop him. Does anyone know of legal counsel that will work pro-bono?

Quote:

Posted By SusanW1 on 03/07/2012 10:10 AM
"He" = ONE person.

Where is the rest of the board on all this?

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GregD4 on 03/14/2012 3:32 PM

NO as they must feed their families same as the rest of us. Possibly you may find one who will take a really very good case which has a high potential of winning with reduced hourly fee and miscellaneous court costs paid. This is potentially because they are betting they may recoup full fee if they win.

You will not find a pro bono attorney regarding an HOA because there are too many individuals (numerous homeowners) involved who can potentially come up with the fees needed to pursue a case ... LOL

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

OK ... let's try this again as I am not sure what happened when doing the quote.

Quote:

Posted By GregD4 on 03/14/2012 3:32 PM

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Interesting in that the DIV code is not functioning properly even though double checked on second post. Therefore the issue
regarding the response was in reference to:

Does anyone know of legal counsel that will work pro-bono?

RonaldS2 (Minnesota)
Posts: 2

Posted:

I really sympathize because our board acts the same way. Actually our board of 5 people is totally controlled by the president and the other 4 are just lackeys. We ask for records and are told that board members must be present when they are shown to us. Then, when trying to coordinate the schedules of the board members with the schedule of the management association and the schedule of the person requestion the meeting, nothing ever seems to mesh. Finally, the HOA attorney replies to a request for records that the request is not for a "proper purpose."

The bottom line here is that a board (or an individual who totally controls a board) can run roughshod over an entire association and get away with it for years. The reason being that they keep enough homeowners in their pockets to avoid getting tossed out at elections. They also rig elections. How do they do this you ask? They control proxies, voting procedures, etc. It takes a superhuman effort by concerned members to get the votes to through the bums out. Most members are too apathetic to either attend an annual meeting or they simply assign their proxy to the current president.

The HOA management companies find it in their best interests to work with these rogues as do the attorneys that do HOA work. The states need to enact laws (with teeth) that require associations and their boards to be open and sensitive to the demands of their members. We are sadly behing the curve on this. A good example of this is the ability of boards to hide behind the law to deny access to corporate records. The "law" being the same law that governs all of corporate America with companies like IBM and GE. We are up against restrictions meant to keep corporate raiders (the likes of Carl Icahn) from doing hostile takeovers. What the hell does that have to do with grandma and grandpa living in their retirement condo? When we ask for information we get a page of legal mumbo jumbo from the HOA attorney telling us that our requests are for improper purposes.

There is a serious problem here that needs to be recognized by political bodies.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

You know I really just don't when I or others on my board would have had time to create conspiracies or control everything in our HOA. Honestly, put your HOA into the realm of reality. It isn't a professionally run organization. It is a VOLUNTEER member run club. The ONLY requirement to be a member is to own property in the HOA common area.

So what happens is since a HOA is ONLY member operated and funded the ones who end up in "control" are the ones who choose or were chosen to run the HOA on the behalf of those owners who didn't want to participate on a daily level. If you don't want to volunteer or participate in that daily operations then stop criticizing/judging those who have to. It is NO conspiracy or selective actions happening it's sometimes the best and knee jerk reactions the HOA can do.

My HOA wasn't perfect and I've been on the other side of this issue. It is just maybe you need to stop and realize your NOT involved in daily activities that lead to the decisions you see/experience. Asking to see rcords of the HOA should be an EXACT request for SPECIFIC information. NOT used as a "Wish/Witch Hunt" just because you can or want one thing. It is quite annoying for someone to be behind you picking up your scraps or mistakes and coming back at you with them. How would you react to your inquiry if the same was made of you? Use that as your guide before assuming your board's reaction. Would you be sick of you and how do you handle people like that? There's your answer when you get it. Work from there...

Former HOA President

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/16/2012 2:38 PM
You know I really just don't when I or others on my board would have had time to create conspiracies or control everything in our HOA. Honestly, put your HOA into the realm of reality. It isn't a professionally run organization. It is a VOLUNTEER member run club. The ONLY requirement to be a member is to own property in the HOA common area.

So what happens is since a HOA is ONLY member operated and funded the ones who end up in "control" are the ones who choose or were chosen to run the HOA on the behalf of those owners who didn't want to participate on a daily level. If you don't want to volunteer or participate in that daily operations then stop criticizing/judging those who have to. It is NO conspiracy or selective actions happening it's sometimes the best and knee jerk reactions the HOA can do.

My HOA wasn't perfect and I've been on the other side of this issue. It is just maybe you need to stop and realize your NOT involved in daily activities that lead to the decisions you see/experience. Asking to see rcords of the HOA should be an EXACT request for SPECIFIC information. NOT used as a "Wish/Witch Hunt" just because you can or want one thing. It is quite annoying for someone to be behind you picking up your scraps or mistakes and coming back at you with them. How would you react to your inquiry if the same was made of you? Use that as your guide before assuming your board's reaction. Would you be sick of you and how do you handle people like that? There's your answer when you get it. Work from there...

Well said.

I have heard either lead or follow, but at least get the F out of the way...LOL

RonaldS2 (Minnesota)
Posts: 2

Posted:

MelissaP1 and JohnC46, you just don't get it do you. I was a board member several years ago and after I and others left, the control freaks gained control. I have been on a board of a public company, the board of a major charitable organization and boards of private companies. I know how boards operate and I know what the responsibilities of board members are. I also know what happens when people who have never had such power in their lives suddenly find themselves in positions of control. Don't tell me to go to board meetings, run for the board, etc., I have done all of that.

I know that HOA's are overlooked by our elected public representatives. These HOA's need to have laws written specifically for them. The courts are too busy with other things and don't want to deal with us. The politicians only respond to money or pressure. We need to establish a national organization devoted to good governance and rights of owners in homeowner organizations. Don't give me a bunch of crap about sucking up or moving out. You and others need to join me in an organization that is devoted to fighting back against corruption and arrogance in these HOA's. If you are not interested in that then I do not need to talk with you.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I usually compare a HOA to a game of Poker. The money is the "Kitty" everyone chips into and each player raises their bet with as much as they want to participate in. The Dealer is the HOA who holds and control the cards but the players who keep the game going and feeds the bets are the board members. The members who fold, don't kick in, or just spectate are the general members.

The problems happen when no one places a bet, someone is bluffing, or new players don't know the game. It's usually the one with the best bluff most assume and let win the game...However, ALL players are suspected bluffers with aces up their sleeves...A good HOA dealer will deal with short sleeves and money on the table in theory and hopeful thinking...The overall reality is Poker is still a game of chance and skill and each game will be different with different outcomes. Just learn NOT assign impossible end results, learn how to place bets, keep the best bluff, and acknowledge your all in the same game together...

Former HOA President

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Ron I do get it and I repeat:

Lead, follow, or get the F out of the way.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

So now the answers lies with the government and politicians fixing the problems?

Have you noticed most are not all that good at handling what's on their plates now?

And have you any idea of the time frame for such actions IF they were to even consider acting?

It is not the fault of the Boards. It is not the poor performance of the MCs.

Bottom line is the problem lies with the uninformed, lazy, do nothing owners who sit back and do nothing till the point where things have gotten so bad only and act of God can save them. Then they sit back and complain and still don't want to get involved. OR they cry out for someone, somebody, some government agency to do what they themselves have no interest in doing.

Seems like we have lots of foks today who want answers, who demand answers but have no desire or energy to do anything themselves.

In most cases this is the single biggest investment in their lives and the effort and time they are willing to put in ZERO.

You get what you give. Sort of explains why so many people are having troubles these days.
Dancing with the Stars, American Idol, Nascar races, and shopping seem to have taken up all of their free time. Protecting your property, your home, your investment not so much.

I do get. To put if another way, you are either part of the problem or part of the solution.
To many people willing to do nothing!

JoyceS1 (Indiana)
Posts: 140

Posted:

JonD1.....we live in the same HOA only miles apart! I agree with all that you said.

GregD4 (Georgia)
Posts: 7

Posted:

RonaldS2, You are right on point! This president has no job other than to go around and collect proxy's to keep himself and his radical ideas in office. He also has a good portion of the community in his back pocket and controls through intimidation. He has already tried (but failed) to get elected to the city council. This guy is power hungry and entertains no ideas except his own. Very narcissistic... Te laws are very specific in viewing the books. EVERY homeowner has the right to view all of the books in a timely manner. If they don’t want to show them they are hiding something...

Quote:

Posted By RonaldS2 on 03/16/2012 1:53 PM
I really sympathize because our board acts the same way. Actually our board of 5 people is totally controlled by the president and the other 4 are just lackeys. We ask for records and are told that board members must be present when they are shown to us. Then, when trying to coordinate the schedules of the board members with the schedule of the management association and the schedule of the person requestion the meeting, nothing ever seems to mesh. Finally, the HOA attorney replies to a request for records that the request is not for a "proper purpose."

The bottom line here is that a board (or an individual who totally controls a board) can run roughshod over an entire association and get away with it for years. The reason being that they keep enough homeowners in their pockets to avoid getting tossed out at elections. They also rig elections. How do they do this you ask? They control proxies, voting procedures, etc. It takes a superhuman effort by concerned members to get the votes to through the bums out. Most members are too apathetic to either attend an annual meeting or they simply assign their proxy to the current president.

The HOA management companies find it in their best interests to work with these rogues as do the attorneys that do HOA work. The states need to enact laws (with teeth) that require associations and their boards to be open and sensitive to the demands of their members. We are sadly behing the curve on this. A good example of this is the ability of boards to hide behind the law to deny access to corporate records. The "law" being the same law that governs all of corporate America with companies like IBM and GE. We are up against restrictions meant to keep corporate raiders (the likes of Carl Icahn) from doing hostile takeovers. What the hell does that have to do with grandma and grandpa living in their retirement condo? When we ask for information we get a page of legal mumbo jumbo from the HOA attorney telling us that our requests are for improper purposes.

There is a serious problem here that needs to be recognized by political bodies.

GregD4 (Georgia)
Posts: 7

Posted:

MelissaP1/JohnC46, First of all you do not have to work at it full time to 'take over' an HOA. You just need to be good at manipulation, intimidation and 'community organizing'. It’s not hard to take over the meek. I was the president of this board and I ran it transparently. If anyone wanted to see the books they were on display for all to see, ALL the books.(per the covenants, during normal business hours). I was fully involved. I, by myself, removed graffiti from fences and playground, repaired playground equipment, repaired and cleaned the pool and helped to maintain the common areas . In an effort to show my son how pride in ones living area is very valuable, we walked the streets picking up trash. I was involved!!! I am now the president of the HOA for the community I live in now. I still do the same things for the community. I bend over backwards giving my own time and spend my own money to help out anywhere I can. I am tired of power hungry board members ‘controlling’ the HOA. I was elected to serve the community not myself. And don’t tell me to lead follow or get out of the way. Been there, STILL there… div class="NTForums_Quote">Posted By JohnC46 on 03/16/2012 5:26 PM

Quote:

Well said.

I have heard either lead or follow, but at least get the F out of the way...LOL

DavidS36 (Nevada)
Posts: 20

Posted:

Bring pressure on your Board (President) to divulge all financial data at least as often as every Board meeting, maybe every month if there are suspicions of wrongdoing. How to bring pressure? Contact your state’s governing body for HOAs. Contact a local TV news channel that has a consumer action desk. Mail a letter with documented actions and facts to every homeowner (this will cost some money, though), being sure to not fill the letter with complaints, gossip, or innuendos. As a homeowner, you have a right to recall any Board member through a petition/election process which is quite simple in most states. Even if the recall fails all homeowners might be inclined to keep a closer eye on who is spending their money, and why.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Really? You want to bring a newscast station into your HOA to broadcast to ALL of the potential buyers in the area your HOA stinks? Talk about reducing you and your neighbor's property values into the toilet in one swoop...NEVER a good idea to bring others into your battle. A HOA is designed to resolve it's own issues amongst itself with the people who run it.. That would be The OWNERS in it.

Before bringing outside sources...use the one's within...Remember concern yourself with YOUR actions and NOT others...Because YOU are OTHER to other people...

Former HOA President

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

at the end of the day the reason why their are rogue boards is because the residents of the community allow it to happen. People pay no attention to what is going on until it hits them in the pocket book and by then it is too late. Yes, some people are better at manipulating than others and there are control freaks in this world...but the old adage if you give people an inch they will take a mile rings true here.

If there are no residents to challenge them, no one to question why you do what you do then you are just empowering them. You can enact all the laws you want, but at the end of the day the courts and the rest of America have too much going on to worry about a dispute between your board and yourself. Harsh, yes...but definitely true.

You want to get control of your board then get active and get your neighbors active.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BradP on 03/17/2012 7:04 PM
at the end of the day the reason why their are rogue boards is because the residents of the community allow it to happen. People pay no attention to what is going on until it hits them in the pocket book and by then it is too late. Yes, some people are better at manipulating than others and there are control freaks in this world...but the old adage if you give people an inch they will take a mile rings true here.

If there are no residents to challenge them, no one to question why you do what you do then you are just empowering them. You can enact all the laws you want, but at the end of the day the courts and the rest of America have too much going on to worry about a dispute between your board and yourself. Harsh, yes...but definitely true.

You want to get control of your board then get active and get your neighbors active.

I think this would qualify as the lead part of: Lead, follow, or get the F out of the way....LOL

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GregD4 on 03/07/2012 10:05 AM
I was President two years prior and I was able to give our community all the amenities afforded in the covenants so I know what I am talking about. I have moved out of the subdivision into another subdivision so that makes me ineligible.

Hi Greg:

Do you still own the property? If so, why would you be ineligible?

GeorgiaB
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SusanW1 on 03/07/2012 10:10 AM
"He" = ONE person.

Where is the rest of the board on all this?

Most likely siding with the president on everything because they were handpicked by the president to join the board and turn it into their own private corporation and showing how powerful they are.

Same thing that has been going on in my association for years.

EricH8 (Virginia)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RonaldS2 on 03/16/2012 5:57 PM
We need to establish a national organization devoted to good governance and rights of owners in homeowner organizations.

I'm with you, RonaldS2. The law firms, management companies and other HOA hired help spend money on influencing state legislation to the benefit of themselves to the detriment of individual homeowners. For example in Oregon there is no agency in charge of enforcing what laws we have about HOA's, so an individual homeowner has to go to court to battle a rogue HOA board, David vs. Goliath. It would be great if the homeowners also got organized. Useful activities would be representing the homeowners to balance the influence of the HOA Industrial Complex. (Do you like that name? Neither do I. I just made it up.) Another purpose could be distilling the political science 101 so HOA members and potential HOA buyers would better know what they were getting into. Hmmm, that might reduce property values. Maybe that's why it won't happen.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By EricH8 on 03/29/2012 8:13 PM

It would be great if the homeowners also got organized.

If homeowners became organized they would be able to amend their governing documents to prevent issues they encounter.

If homeowners became organized and volunteered they would be able to have a clear choice when electing who will be on the board to make the decisions that affect them.

If the homeowners became organized there probably wouldn't be a need to create another government bureaucracy to govern the Associations.

EricH8 (Virginia)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 03/29/2012 8:29 PM

If homeowners became organized they would be able to amend their governing documents to prevent issues they encounter.

I my HOA the Bylaws say
"any proposed amendment must be approved by a majority of the Board of Directors of the Association prior to its adoption by the unit owners"
So it is not possible to make an amendment to deal with a rogue board.

Quote:

Posted By TimB4

If the homeowners became organized there probably wouldn't be a need to create another government bureaucracy to govern the Associations.

How about giving the individual homeowner a level playing field, with the same amount of help from government bureaucracies that the professional HOA industry gets?

Getting new directors on the board is an uphill battle with the unfair tactic the incumbent boards use to prevent a challenger who will not toe the line with existed board philosophy of secret meetings and denying access to "the books", denying services to anyone who seems to be a watchdog agency.

Even getting a challenger candidate on to the board is no guaranty of reform. The new minority view director make cave in to pressure to toe the line or resign to avoid character assassination or other dirty tactics.

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