Pet Help

Started by JewelsG • 19 replies • 1998 views

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JewelsG (California)
Posts: 3

Posted:

I need some advice concerning my HOA president.

I bought my condo here in Palm Springs 3 years ago. Six months after moving in a got a dog (she was 4 weeks when I got her), and yes she is part pitbull, however when I bought my condo there were no restrictions regarding weight limits or types of dogs in the rules that I received at the time of purchasing my condo. My dog is licensed, fixed, up to date on all shots and chipped. For the first two years there was never an issue what so ever with my dog, there are at least six other dogs on site the same size.

Suddenly last year it became an issue. My parents are also owners of my condo, and my mother began having issues with the board president. This in turn caused addtional problems for me since I live on site and of course was the easier target. Last year the president started issuing me fines regarding my dog. One fine was for when another tenant (renter not owner) compalined that while stopping to pet my dog while I was out walking her, that my dog had jumped up and placed a paw on his white shirt, apparently soiling his shirt. That fine cost me $200.00, much more then the shirt cost. In this same violation meeting he also claimed that my dog had chased a small boy, causing the boy to have nighmares, however this boy or parents were never located or appeared at the meeting to support these accusations. Also in same violation he claimed a lady named Anna living in unit #80 had to wait in her car upon arriving home from work until her boyfriend came out to get her, cause she feared my dog, apparently she claimed my dog was out running around, once again this person could not be found, I even went to unit #80 and asked for Anna and no such person lived there.

At the close of this meeting I had to pay a $200.00 fine, but soon after that I received a letter that details the outcome of the violation meeting, and in this letter the president added and said that I had agreed to (which I had not), that my dog would not be allowed to be outside of my unit for any reason before midnight. Can this be legally done? Can the board tell me what time I can walk my dog?

Since then I have paid a total of $660.00 in fines, twice when arriving home from the vets (it was 3 pm) I had to walk my dog to and from the car to my condo, I was fined for coming and going with my dog before midnight. And another time when my car had broken down and was driven home in the tow truck, my dog jumped out without a leash, which that one I can see, my dog did get out without a leash.

He is now adding that my dog wear a muzzle.

The president has done many many more things against me, and many other owners also. But right now my main concern is my dog, she is my life and right now she is staying with my friend until I can do something about this situation.But I cannot afford hundreds and hundreds of dollars in fines. His plan is to place fine after fine until I can no longer afford to pay at which time he can place a lein on my own forcing me to move out. What can I do? Please help me keep my dog and my home.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Jewels,

It appears that you were able to have a hearing and face each accuser for the fines. This is in keeping with the Davis-stirling act.

Here is a link to Davis Stirling.com websites, fine page.

You may want to bring an attorney to the next hearing as they may be better at protecting your rights.

You might need to complain to the board about the personality conflict and issues between you and the President. Use only verifiable facts rather than personal opinions when making the complaint. This way there is documentation about the issues and you can then request that the President recuse themselves from any future hearings as there may be a conflict in their ability to be fair.

Hope this helps.

Tim

JewelsG (California)
Posts: 3

Posted:

Thanks for responding so quickly. As far as going to the board concerning my issues with the president, that is not an option, he is the board, the management company, the treasurer and all. There is only two board members, himself and his bestfriend that claims to be the treasurer, but is simply just for show since the man is unable to read or write.

Bringing a lawyer to the next meeting is also not an option due to financial reasons. It seems like it might just be a losing battle.

The man is ruthless, the homeowners have already voted to remove him and his friend from the board, the voting took place a month ago, the majority voted him off the board, and if you can believe this one, he refuses to go anywhere. Like the whole thing never took place, he claimed it was not properly done, but it was, he just refuses to leave, he makes far to much profit from him position as president, and he does not want to give that up. So in the meantime he continues on as president like we never voted him out, and we called the authorites and anyone else who we thought would help to no avail. All that came of whole ordeal was one of the other homeowners who tried telling him he was no longer president ended up in the hospital getting 14 stitches above his eye after being hit with a flashlight by the angry president, and guess what the cops came and once again did not take the man to jail, just like the previous 20 times they have been called out for similiar incidents.

I still can't believe that these kind of things have been happening all over for many years and nothing can be done to stop it. If you have never lived within a HOA you would never imagine anything like this taking place, you have to literally see it to believe it. I would never have believed these things happened if someone had told me, but now that I am part of a HOA I am shocked at what boards get away with, and even more shocked that there is no one that governs HOA's. Unbelievable!

This man has done so much that it's just to much to list, and quite frankly I have come to accept that I have to live with it cause I cannot afford to sell, but I was hoping for just a little bit of luck in finding some way to be able to keep my dog, that's the only thing I really care about at this point.

It's like a nightmare that never ends, every where I turn he's there watching, and it's not just me he does it to many homeowners. He has no job other then patrolling the grounds looking for people to fine. I got a notice of new rules and fines the other day, and just when I thought nothing this man did could surprise me, he has set a new rule, "If you are heard using any vulgar language in any area of the complex, regardless of who it is directed to and he hears it, it is an automatic fine of $100.00". Have you ever heard of such a thing? I am just giving you an example of whom I am dealing with.

Wish me luck!

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Jewels,

Expecting that your Association is under homeowner control, if the recall was properly done and the individual refuses to step down, the members need to go through to the courts to request a court order be issued to have the individual step down.

If your safety is an issue, you contact the police - they will help you. However, to have the individual removed from office, the police can't help. This is because the State considers the deed restrictions (your CC&Rs) a contract. Contract disputes are settled in civil court - not criminal court. This is why it's up to the members to pay an attorney and take the issue to court.

I know, this is easier to say then to do and it's you and your neighbors that must live with any unintended consequences that go with the court process. Therefore, only you and your neighbors can make the decision if it is worth pursuing or live with what you've got.

The reality of your issue (as I understand it) is if you can't financially afford an attorney and/or if the consequences are not worth the result, your only other choices are to move and rent or sell and move.

Tim

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Hi Jewels:

As Tim noted most instances unfortunately require attorney and court to resolve. And yes unfortunately that does take money; however, if all the homeowners ban together then that can be split between many vs. one individual. However, it should be the absolute last result and with evidence and law on your side with high probability of winning. If as you stated majority of other homeowners voted to remove, then there is good chance of winning.

The only regulatory agency I am aware of in CA would only apply if you are incorporated and any corporate statutes have been violated. Here are a couple of links for you to review:

Regulation of HOA:
http://www.davis-stirling.com/AttorneyGeneral/tabid/668/Default.aspx#axzz1ne7RvqhE

Corporations Code:
http://www.davis-stirling.com/MainIndex/Statutes/CorporationsCode/tabid/802/Default.aspx#axzz1ne7RvqhE

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Here is my unconventional advice...STOP paying the fines...Shocking I know! That is because most HOA's can't fine members unless they have a fining schedule. Which means some kind of fine scale has to be established and known to ALL members. Is that in existance?

Fines can't be used for the basis of liens or foreclosures in most states. Do the research if your state allows it. This means if you get issued a fine the HOA can't issue a lien or foreclose for it. They can for unpaid assessments or special assessments.

They may try to sue you. This would be useless and mostly empty threat. Unless they can prove they have the right to levy fines or out money in pursuit, there is not much they can prove. Plus you can countersue which cost less money and gives you a chance to stand up.

Yes, not the best advice out there...But it will cost you less money until actual action is taken...

Former HOA President

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

LOL ... Melissa I believe you hit the nail on the head here. Jewels check your documents for areas which you have received fines to determine the content. If desired you can post the sections here for us to read and give our input if you have any questions.

Here is the section from Davis-Stirling regarding fine schedule:
http://www.davis-stirling.com/MainIndex/FineSchedule/tabid/1749/Default.aspx#axzz1nesNlPzQ

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Also, items in the Declaration of CCR can potentially trump any rules or regulations implemented by the board if stated in more than one document. The CCR's are agreed to by all homeowners vs. rules implemented by handful of individuals (a.k.a. board). So if you have questions and supply sections of documents, please note which document is being discussed.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

It's funny how one ex-president can give advice on how to AVOID HOA's rules isn't it? LOL...

Former HOA President

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Good catch …

It is items such as this which incur large advertisements in local papers like in my area this last week where a large real estate company placed an advertisement stating they have buyers looking for properties. In large print one of the items was PROPERTIES WITH NO HOA. There is no excuse for wrong and stupidity which ends up affecting many thousands of homeowners across the country with negative impact regarding HOA’s.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Per the posters original post the Association did hold hearings about fines.

Per Davis-Stirling, fines can be used for liens but not for liens based on unpaid assessments. Fines can not be used for un-judicial foreclosure. However, they can provide a basis for a judicial foreclosure.

It's unclear if there is a fine schedule. It also seems that some of the fines might be unreasonable. However, to challenge the lack of a fine schedule or unreasonable fines, you need to take the Association to court or have them take you to court.

Per Davis-Stirling site, Refusal to Comply. If the owner refuses to comply, the board must then take legal action and seek a court order as well as judgment for the fines which continue to accrue until judgment is entered. Based on the original post, I believe that the Association would seek legal action (if not on principal but on the indication of the personality conflict between the two individuals).

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Hi Tim:

I did not find under Davis-Stirling an item titled “Refusal to Comply”. However, when putting that in search information the following was an item titled Daily Fines which appeared and which does reference a Refusal to Comply and states (unless you have a different link):

http://www.davis-stirling.com/MainIndex/DailyFines/tabid/1750/Default.aspx#axzz1nfNwxmhA

Refusal to Comply. If the owner refuses to comply, the board must then take legal action and seek a court order as well as judgment for the fines which continue to accrue until judgment is entered.

This potentially puts the monkey on the boards back and which must be substantiated by the governing documents. Depending on what they state do you really think they might cover per the original poster:

One fine was for when another tenant (renter not owner) complained that while stopping to pet my dog while I was out walking her, that my dog had jumped up and placed a paw on his white shirt, apparently soiling his shirt. That fine cost me $200.00, much more then the shirt cost.

Now granted there is the issue if true and whether violation was in writing; however, if in writing … PLEASE … the individual “stopped to pet the dog” and then due to their actions “dog had jumped up and placed paw on his white shirt, apparently soiling his shirt”. SORRY … I would like to see the documentation that would cover such an absurd violation.

There is also the issue per the poster that the hearings were by an potential “illegal board” which had been recalled by majority of owners.

I would like to see the appropriate text from the posters governing documents.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JanetB2 on 02/28/2012 1:45 AM
Hi Tim:

I did not find under Davis-Stirling an item titled “Refusal to Comply”. However, when putting that in search information the following was an item titled Daily Fines which appeared and which does reference a Refusal to Comply and states (unless you have a different link):

http://www.davis-stirling.com/MainIndex/DailyFines/tabid/1750/Default.aspx#axzz1nfNwxmhA

Yep, that was the one I was referencing. I had already supplied the link to the fining home page of that site in an earlier post. If the OP goes through the different sections of that page, they would have found that reference.

As for the $200 fine, per the OP, this was done after a hearing (they called it a meeting) and I had the impression that all parties were there. I agree that a) the fine is excessive and b) the board should have understood the mitigating circumstances (that the individual stopped to pet the dog). However, we only know one side of the story and I believe that there may have been more issues than just that one instance as I don't think any board would place the Association at risk having a $200 fine for a dog jumping on someone. It could be that the complaint was the dog attacked the individual and, again based on the OP's post, there was a claim that the dog chased another individual. These claims certainly may be unfounded and, per the postings, there are personality conflicts and other issues involved (a paid board member who was recalled but refused to step down).

I believe what the OP is saying. Unfortunately, the OP said that going through the courts was not an option for her due to financial issues. Therefore, the choices are limited. If they refused to pay the fines (as Melissa suggests) the OP would likely need to pay for legal services as I suspect her Board would seek legal action. Expenses are expenses and if financial constraints prevents taking the offensive in a legal battle, the same financial constraints exist for taking the defensive side of a legal battle.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JewelsG on 02/27/2012 7:48 AM
Thanks for responding so quickly. As far as going to the board concerning my issues with the president, that is not an option, he is the board, the management company, the treasurer and all. There is only two board members, himself and his bestfriend that claims to be the treasurer, but is simply just for show since the man is unable to read or write.

Bringing a lawyer to the next meeting is also not an option due to financial reasons. It seems like it might just be a losing battle.

The man is ruthless, the homeowners have already voted to remove him and his friend from the board, the voting took place a month ago, the majority voted him off the board, and if you can believe this one, he refuses to go anywhere. Like the whole thing never took place, he claimed it was not properly done, but it was, he just refuses to leave, he makes far to much profit from him position as president, and he does not want to give that up. So in the meantime he continues on as president like we never voted him out, and we called the authorites and anyone else who we thought would help to no avail. All that came of whole ordeal was one of the other homeowners who tried telling him he was no longer president ended up in the hospital getting 14 stitches above his eye after being hit with a flashlight by the angry president, and guess what the cops came and once again did not take the man to jail, just like the previous 20 times they have been called out for similiar incidents.

I still can't believe that these kind of things have been happening all over for many years and nothing can be done to stop it. If you have never lived within a HOA you would never imagine anything like this taking place, you have to literally see it to believe it. I would never have believed these things happened if someone had told me, but now that I am part of a HOA I am shocked at what boards get away with, and even more shocked that there is no one that governs HOA's. Unbelievable!

This man has done so much that it's just to much to list, and quite frankly I have come to accept that I have to live with it cause I cannot afford to sell, but I was hoping for just a little bit of luck in finding some way to be able to keep my dog, that's the only thing I really care about at this point.

It's like a nightmare that never ends, every where I turn he's there watching, and it's not just me he does it to many homeowners. He has no job other then patrolling the grounds looking for people to fine. I got a notice of new rules and fines the other day, and just when I thought nothing this man did could surprise me, he has set a new rule, "If you are heard using any vulgar language in any area of the complex, regardless of who it is directed to and he hears it, it is an automatic fine of $100.00". Have you ever heard of such a thing? I am just giving you an example of whom I am dealing with.

Wish me luck!

I don't know about Ca and don't have time to read all the post right now as I need to get to work, but in NE the state law stipulates we must have at least 3 Board members. The Secretay can also be the Treasuere, but neither the President or Vice President can also be wither Secretary or Treasurer.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

you probably don't need more advice, but... the president sounds like he is WAY over his authority. I truly truly doubt there are any rules in your contract enforceable in the manner he is attempting.. a fine for dirtying some clothing?

don't pay. Go to your next fine review armed with a copy of the rules and regs/cc&R's. demand the smegma of a president show you, in writing, where he gets his authority to do what he is doing, and the exact violation he is citing, and the fine schedule.

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/27/2012 10:31 PM
Here is my unconventional advice...STOP paying the fines...Shocking I know! That is because most HOA's can't fine members unless they have a fining schedule. Which means some kind of fine scale has to be established and known to ALL members. Is that in existance?

Fines can't be used for the basis of liens or foreclosures in most states. Do the research if your state allows it. This means if you get issued a fine the HOA can't issue a lien or foreclose for it. They can for unpaid assessments or special assessments.

They may try to sue you. This would be useless and mostly empty threat. Unless they can prove they have the right to levy fines or out money in pursuit, there is not much they can prove. Plus you can countersue which cost less money and gives you a chance to stand up.

Yes, not the best advice out there...But it will cost you less money until actual action is taken...

I would under no circumstances ignore the fines...they may not be able to lien your home but they sure can send a collection agency after you and ruin your credit. Even if you are in the right and it gets taken away good luck getting cooperation from credit bureaus to restore your credit.

Me personally, I would ask for a copy of the rules and regulation and documents on the dogs and I would take him to small claims court asking for refund of the fines, court costs and harassment damages.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Is the glass half full or half empty?

I think the OP might have some issues (looking for sympathy) in that her "facts/accusations" are questionable.....like the flashlight beating, etc.

I take what she says with a grain of salt.

JewelsG (California)
Posts: 3

Posted:

I have reviewed our CC&R's and there is nothing that states fines for any dog issues other then dog's being off their leash and not picking up after them. I did take him to small claims court for these fines especially since they were issued during a year period in which our board was operating while it's license was suspeneded with the State of California. We prevailed in our case and the judge ordered the fines to be reinbursed. However a month later when the license was in good standing again he refiled the same violations against me and I was ordered to pay the fines once again.

I am in no way looking for any sympathy as some seem to think here. I was just looking for suggestions and advice. The flashlight beating is true with plenty of pictures and statements to back it, if I could post them I would. So for someone to suggest that my intentions are anything but good, you are wrong in saying so.

I came to this site seeking good advice and suggestions only, not to be ridiculed by those who have no knowledge of my situation.

HOA boards have control of so much, and when they know everyone has given up the fight against them, they gain even more control. It's a shame that they have so much power with absolutely no one to govern them. This has been going on for years and it does not seem to be getting any better. I have read horror stories of people that have been forced out of their homes, even some who have lost thier homes. So many disputes that are never ending, embezzlement by boards, and so on. But it seems to just be the way things go within associations. If you try and fight it, it's just a never ending battle, that is unless you have a unlimited amount of money to support your fight against them. In which case I do not.

But thanks to those that replied, I appreciate your answers.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Hi Jewels:

If you won previously under small claims then you may want to consider again.

An option for the future would be to maybe record meetings here is some info for various areas under Davis-Stirling:

http://www.davis-stirling.com/Default.aspx?TabId=663#FirstR

http://www.davis-stirling.com/BroadcastingMeetings/tabid/1776/Default.aspx#axzz1npXkm5ga

http://www.davis-stirling.com/RecordingUnrulyMeetings/tabid/2811/Default.aspx#axzz1npXkm5ga

Also, any and all correspondence you should to do via “Certified Return Receipt”. Staple the receipt to any corresponding copy of letters after you receive back. This shows when sent and when received regarding any requests or responses. This will also put the individual on notice that correspondence is being tracked.

Otherwise you and the other homeowners just need to stick and all work together. When is the next election? At that time maybe everyone should pitch in and have an attorney present for the election and turnover to a different group of homeowners. If everyone pitches in a little then the cost possibly would be minimal and make for a happier future. I would suggest that someone give the attorney a proxy, so there is no debate as to whether or not can be present … just one way to be the smartest fox. Think ahead and plan ahead … review and learn your documents and state laws.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JanetB2 on 02/29/2012 7:26 PM

Also, any and all correspondence you should to do via “Certified Return Receipt”. Staple the receipt to any corresponding copy of letters after you receive back. This shows when sent and when received regarding any requests or responses. This will also put the individual on notice that correspondence is being tracked.

I actually like to include the certification number in the correspondence.

A simple line that says:

Sent via Certified Mail #### #### #### #### ####

A small stack of certified mail paperwork should be picked up from the post office and kept available for this purpose.

Tim

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