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RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
At the request of many members, we are considering an amendment to our CC&Rs. This requires 75% of the members approval (not ones attending a meeting, but actual owners). We expect to have this approval.

For anyone who has been through this, what were your attorney fees and the legal costs for filing the amendment?

How did you conduct the actual vote?

I believe in our case, all the votes must be recorded with the county, not just the results. For this, individual ballots would require recording over 100 ballots (there is a cost for this, but I don't know how much) so we are considering going door to door with something more like a petition. We would then only have to record 10 or so documents.

Ron
SC
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Ronald, I would call the county clerk and recorder to confirm what documents need to be recorded. If you are required to record all documents, rather than just a signed and notorized letter (while maintaining ballots in the HOA files), the petition approach may less expensive; but only if volunteers are willing to go door to door to every owner (several will require several attempts). The amendments with which we have assisted have cost less than $250. There were no attorney fees or other legal fees - just filing fees of less than $10.00. The largest expense was postage.

We have always used a ballot which is mailed with a letter explaining the pros and cons plus a self addressed stamped return envelope.The primary difficulty was getting 67% of ALL OWNERS to approve in writting. It has always required going door to door to the 10% to 20% who did not respond. This was necessary in order to get 67% approval even on non-contriversial amendments.

When regard to using an attorney, you can spend a lot of time and money coordinating with the attorney and then not be able to get sufficient votes to approve. On the other hand, if the amendment is not properly worded you could pass an amendment which creates more problems than it solves.
BobA (California)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Ron,

You say you want to use a petition. Most CC&R's use the phrase written instrument, which can be a petition but do you really think a petition is the best way to? If a petition is used to amend a Covenant and a particular Board goes to the 67 or 75 percent they know will sign then the remainder will not get there say. I know it is probaly less cost effective to do this way but it could become a bigger problem down the road. By using the ballot it gives everyone ther oppurtunity to participate. If they choose not to respond or forget so be it. A ballot is sent out with a day to be sent back and counted on. The petition can go on for months and what if somebody moves, are you sure there name is removed? Not trying to down play the use of a petition but depending on whose using it, it can be used in the wrong way and create more.
LanceT (Alabama)
Posts: 121
Posted:
I've been through this. It may depend on what state/county/city you live in to determine actual court fees. Each one differs. With our changes it eventally cost us about $2,000 and over 2 years of work. That was as simple as an address change and separate water meter issue. We of course hired a lawyer too.
Here's the deal. Convenants and Restrictions may need filed in county clerks office but bylaws may not. It will depend on which state/county you live in. I suggest you go to the County Records office and request a copy of whatever they have on file. This may give you a "clue" on what actually needs filed. If you don't get by-laws with it, then you may not have to file those. You should modify BOTH at the same time since one can override the other.
Make sure what the amount of votes are needed to change the document. I found out that our By-laws took 75% of the owners votes and the CC&R's took 90%. However, there was a loop-hole that 20 years AFTER incorporation the CC&R's would go down to 75% vote. Unfornately, our HOA was only 15 years old at the time!
To get your votes you have 2 options: 1. Special meeting. A meeting to discuss and approve the changes is done at ONE meeting. If you can gather 75% of the vote at ONE SPECIAL meeting (MUST be SPECIAL)you are amazing! Members just sign the ammendment with their name, lot number, and address and you go up to the court house and file. Our cost was about $750 dollars to file.
Option 2: Skip the Special Meeting. If you can't hold a special meeting then you can still collect the votes needed. However, this will require 2 votes from EACH member. The first will be a petition giving up their rights to hold a Special meeting for this vote. The second is a copy of the petition itself. Both will have to have the same information filled out. This is so you can by-pass the required Special meeting requirement and go door to door or send by mail. The cost can increase here by administrative costs of paper copies and stamps.
We did hire a lawyer but it wasn't all that necessary. It helped but much of it could be done on our own. Especially the mailing of the notices to the members. Having an attorney do it can run a bill up quickly! So see what is possible to do on your own. You may want to go to an Office Supply store where they may have a copy of the forms your looking for. They are in the area of "Sell your own home" forms.
You also need to make sure RENTERS are NOT signing the forms. It can ONLY be homeowners who sign. If you know the Lot number, you may find out the name of the owner through the Tax Assessor's office if need be.
It is ALWAYS a good idea to review and update your CC&R's and By-laws every 5 years or less. The laws on Satellite dishes have changed and many older HOA rules are outdated on this issue. Owners are allowed to have them now as long as they are out of view. You may find other laws that are either outdated or invalid as you review your documents. Make as many changes NOW as you can including Builder references, address changes, and possibly the number of board members/number of votes needed to change the rules.
There is ALOT more to cover but this should get you in the right direction. It's NOT going to be easy. Just the structure alone on how CC&R's, By-laws, and Incorporation interconnect is enough to drive one insane! Good luck!

Recovering Ex-President of a HOA
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Posted By BobA on 01/21/2007 10:33 AM

Ron,

You say you want to use a petition. Most CC&R's use the phrase written instrument, which can be a petition but do you really think a petition is the best way to? If a petition is used to amend a Covenant and a particular Board goes to the 67 or 75 percent they know will sign then the remainder will not get there say. I know it is probaly less cost effective to do this way but it could become a bigger problem down the road. By using the ballot it gives everyone ther oppurtunity to participate. If they choose not to respond or forget so be it. A ballot is sent out with a day to be sent back and counted on. The petition can go on for months and what if somebody moves, are you sure there name is removed? Not trying to down play the use of a petition but depending on whose using it, it can be used in the wrong way and create more.


Good points.

The initial suggestion of a "petition" (actually just going door to door to take the vote) was intended to reduce filing costs and postage as the former board believed each ballot would have to be recorded (at some cost) with the county. I'm going to check into this. Another concern was the cost of postage but what you suugest is certainly more proffesional and official.

They're going to have to understand that it costs money to operate an HOA in a legal and proffesional manner.


Ron
SC
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Ron:

I highly doubt each ballot has to be filed, probably just kept as official HOA records. All we have to do is have our Secretary sign a notarized statement declaring an amendment was approved and file that with the county.
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Posted By BradP on 01/23/2007 6:31 PM

Ron:

I highly doubt each ballot has to be filed, probably just kept as official HOA records. All we have to do is have our Secretary sign a notarized statement declaring an amendment was approved and file that with the county.


Another ammendment proposed by the previous board would have allowed the BOD to certify such a vote and just file the results with the county. That's why I believe all the votes would have to be recorded at this point. I'm going to study all the documents again checking on this.


Ron
SC
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
The actual wording of the CC&Rs is "This Declaration may be ammended at any time and from time to time by an instrument signed by at least seventy-five (75%) percent of the lot owners. Any ammendment must be recorded."

The Declaration of Restrictions and Easements substitutes the word "agreement" and requires filing with the county but uses different wording.

I'll have to study the documenta a little more but I expect we'll at least have to consult the attorney. Obviously we won't have the attorney mail the letters or anything like that.

Ron
SC
GloriaM (North Carolina)
Posts: 829
Posted:
Ron:

Prepare a cover letter outlining the Article and Section of the CCR's that you want to amend, spell it out for the Owners. Under it give exactly the verbage of the amended change to that particular Article and Section,(here's where an attorney would be necssary) making sure it is legally correct. Then prepare a proxy ballot (petitions can be challenged are are not legal in most states)on the proxy ballot write the amendments with a "cast your vote either yes or no", place a signature area, print their name area, address, and a notary acknowledgement. In some cases (states) you can have one person witness the signatures and have that witness go and have just their (the witness) signature notarized. Again always check with your state's laws.
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Ron following is an example ballot we have used. This is enclosed with a letter explaining the proposed amendment and includes the pros and cons. A self addressed stamped envelop is also enclosed to encourage owners to vote and return their ballot. Remember that failure to vote is equivalent to a NO vote since it takes a specified percentage of ALL owners.

You can go to website CypressGreensHOA.com and view the document which was filed with the County Clerk and Recorder. The amendment is not official until it is recorded.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

BALLOT

First Amendment to the Declaration of Covenants, Conditions, And Restrictions Of Cypress Greens At Lonetree

Article X Restrictions, Section 7. Miscellaneous Improvements, Subsection (h) is hereby amended to:
Roofing materials allowed are cedar shake shingles, regular and light weight concrete tile, and other roofing materials which from time to time may be approved by the Executive Board of Directors. All roofing materials require approval by the Modification Architectural Review Committee. Approval shall require materials of high quality and an appearance which is in harmony with roofing materials on other houses in the Association. No asphalt or fiberglass shingles may be used.

Please vote by checking one: FOR ______ OPPOSED ______

____________________ _________ ________________ __________________
Owner’s Signature Date Print Name address

____________________ _________ ________________ __________________
Owner’s Signature Date Print Name address

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