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JohnR4 (Arizona)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Recently an issue was at hand in our HOA I reffered to robs rules which gave me clear and concise information and I believed that I had the answer. As it turned out in this particular case state statute superceeded robs rule and the answer was dead flat wrong. How does a board member know what guidlines to follow???? There is no way to memorize all of the state statutes. If robs rules are not accurate what good are they?? I might as well read "how the grinch stole christmas" Is there any recognized parlimnetary proceedures that can be used that are accurate?????
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
John, would you please state the specific state state statute and the specific rule in Robert's Rules of Order? I have not found a disagree just some confusion. Hopefully your managing agent can help guide your Board when you have this type question.
DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
JohnR4

The hierarchy for Robert's Rules of Order Newly (RONR), the official Robert's by the parliamentarians, is state law ==>> bylaws ==>> RONR. The bylaws should adopt RONR as the parliamentary authority, in my view. The recommended language in RONR (see parliamentary authority in the index) is "The rules contained in the current edition of [RONR or any other manual your association adopts] shall govern the Society in all cases to which they are applicable and in which they are not inconsistent with these bylaws and any special rules off order the Society may adopt." [from my dog-eared 9th edition]

Obviously, for an owners association, the higher level rules are in the state law, CC&Rs other governing documents including the bylaws. The language in the bylaws for your association should translate the general language above in the specific language applicable to your association.

If the bylaws for your owners association don't include a definition of parliamentary authority, then you have only what is in state law and the governing documents, which probably isn't very much concerning the issues that may occur in the course of association operations. .

The advantage in adopting RONR is that it addresses almost all situations with considered advice from parliamentarians. RONR is much more than rules for meetings. No owners association can possibly have the talent to include such provisions in the bylaws. Few attorneys would ever do so. All seem to avoid RONR, perhaps because RONR provides rights to the members that are typically not included in the law, CC&Rs, and bylaws. If RONR is specified as the parliamentary authority in the bylaws, then the attorneys have to be knowledgeable on RONR to advise properly. Such advice would be better for the members.

If your association finds some that a particular RONR rule is not the best way to handle a particular situation, then amend the bylaws to provide your better way which then automatically supersedes the RONR rule.

The official RONR has a website at . Click on the Q&A Forum and you will find that many of the posts on that forum are from members of owners associations.


JohnR4 (Arizona)
Posts: 29
Posted:
The situation I am refering to was one of a resigination. There was a heated discussion at a meeting which resulted in the VP. a very excellent and fair individul, becoming so disgusted with his treatment, tendered his resigination in writing. I, the pres. and other members of the board contacted him and asked him to re-consider. Which he did. By the next meeting the rude member and the others in the minority position realized that if they did away with him they could place one of their poeple on the board by appointment as the vp, would be off, and have no vote, the pres. had a scheduled vacation and would not attend the next meeting, and I would have to assume the chair. for this one meeting the majority was the minority. Any way An objection was raised to the withdrawl of his resignation, A motion was entered to accept the withdrawl of his resignation and it did not pass. Based on this motion being unsuccessful, this gentleman was removed from his position as an officer and a director. I feel realy bad for this guy because he felt humiliated over this and he was removed primarily so that the minority could establish a block, and he was not one of their loyal cohorts. He voted his concience not with his friends and I for one respected him very much. A good guy, didnt always vote my way either but I can respect somone who votes their concience much more than those that base their votes on who their friends are.

According to Robs rules s.32 A resignation is a motion to be excused from duty and is not binding or offical until it is placed before the assembly, by the chair and accepted. Therefore the member did not require permission of the board to withdraw this motion (resignation)
prior to its acceptace. Under Robs rule this resignation is not binding.

I reqested a legal opinion on the mater, here is the bad news.

10-3807 Resignation of Directors

A. A director may resign at any time by delivering written notice to the board of directors, its presiding officer or the corporation.

B. A resignation is effective when the notice is delivered unless the notice specifies a later effective date or event. If a resignation is made effective at a later date, the board may fill the pending vacancy before the effective date if the board provides that the successor does not take office until the effective date.

ANALYSIS:
A director may resign at any time. To effectuate his resignation, he must deliver written notice to the board, its presiding officer, or the association. The resignation is effective upon delivery of notice unless the notice specifies a later date or event. The board may fill the resigning director’s vacancy after notice is received provided the new director does not take his position until the date specified on the resignation. There are occasions where a director resigns in anger at a board meeting. That is not effective unless followed up with a written resignation. The law thereby establishes a built-in cooling off period. If the angry director does not follow it up with a written resignation, the board has to consider special elections to remove the director, or other alternatives.
JohnR4 (Arizona)
Posts: 29
Posted:
FOOTNOTE

Our document do not specify any method of prlimenary proceedure
WilliamT (Arizona)
Posts: 489
Posted:
Posted By JohnR4 on 01/20/2007 5:32 AM

I reqested a legal opinion on the mater, here is the bad news.

10-3807 Resignation of Directors

A. A director may resign at any time by delivering written notice to the board of directors, its presiding officer or the corporation.

B. A resignation is effective when the notice is delivered unless the notice specifies a later effective date or event. If a resignation is made effective at a later date, the board may fill the pending vacancy before the effective date if the board provides that the successor does not take office until the effective date.

ANALYSIS:
A director may resign at any time. To effectuate his resignation, he must deliver written notice to the board, its presiding officer, or the association. The resignation is effective upon delivery of notice unless the notice specifies a later date or event. The board may fill the resigning director’s vacancy after notice is received provided the new director does not take his position until the date specified on the resignation. There are occasions where a director resigns in anger at a board meeting. That is not effective unless followed up with a written resignation. The law thereby establishes a built-in cooling off period. If the angry director does not follow it up with a written resignation, the board has to consider special elections to remove the director, or other alternatives.


I would get some more legal opinion because while the resignation is effective on the date of the letter, the board of directors must still make a motion to accept that resignation. And until the board accepts the resignation the resignation may not be effective.

If you get another legal opinion then ask about that.

As far as Robert's Rules, it is the most widely accepted meeting procedure available, and just like the CC&R's there are some laws that will come into effect that will override them. That's why it is important for board members to keep current on the laws of the state that govern planned communities.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
John, you received a legal opinion. Was it based on your By-laws? They would overrule RONR. Following is an example from our By-laws:

5.4 Resignation/Removal of Directors
Any Director may resign at any time by giving written notice to the Secretary of the Association, stating the effective date of such resignation. Acceptance of such resignation shall not be necessary to make the resignation effective. Any Director may be removed from the Board, with or without cause, by a majority vote of the Members of the Association.
JohnR4 (Arizona)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Our by-laws state the process for resignation from the position of an "officer" of the board, but neglected to identify process for resignation from the director position.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
just a personal opinion, but to me, a resignation is official the moment it is in writing and given to an agent/officer of the company/group to which the resignation refers.

In other words, you can bluff with a threat of resignation, but when you hand that sucker in, it's done. there's no going back.

GeraldT1 (<Not Specified>)
Posts: 519
Posted:
JohnR4,

As you stated, a motion was entered to accept the withdrawal of a resignation and it did not pass. Based on this motion being unsuccessful, WHY was this gentleman removed from his position as an officer and a director?????

My opinion, Roberts Rules will mire you in parliamentary procedure. Does your state require you follow Robert's? Do your by-laws require you follow Robert's? If not, than Robert's is unnecessary. Your volunteer director and officership is not the presidential election for god's sakes. Follow a basic protocol of running a meeting: Call to order, Roll call, Treasurer's Report, Old Business, New Business, Owner Forum Portion and motions necessary in between.

Best of success!!
GeraldT1
NNJ

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