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DaveE1 (Colorado)
Posts: 33
Posted:
Currently, our HOA is NOT active. Our development had one set up back in 1999 when the developer began this project, however he abandoned us, and walked away over 10 years ago. We have our covenants filed in the courthouse, and our status with the Colorado Secretary of State is that we're administratively dissolved. I am currently querying the 23 property owners regarding re-activating our association.
Basically, we are in a very rural area, with about 32 single residence properties, of which there are only 5 homes at present. The balance is just vacant lands. We do have 320 acres of community property in the center of a loop drive. Given that we have about 5 miles of gravel roads, which are low speed driving, and the vacant 320 acres of community property, I don't see a huge risk presented here that we need a lot of insurance for.
Do the forum members agree with me? Any ideas on what a policy might cost?
KarlA1 (Florida)
Posts: 84
Posted:
I live in an HOA in Florida and we must have liability as far as I know.

I think your bigger problem is that your HOA is disolved. At this point the home owners can chose not to join the HOA anymore and then they can pretty much do what the want. Now the question is, who is paying for the maintenance necessary on the "common" property. I think in Florida the state would assign something like a trustee and they take over from there, until the HOA is capable incorporating and forming a board again. But I might be wrong.

Cheers
Karl

Cheers
Karl
KarlA1 (Florida)
Posts: 84
Posted:
I live in an HOA in Florida and we must have liability as far as I know.

I think your bigger problem is that your HOA is disolved. At this point the home owners can chose not to join the HOA anymore and then they can pretty much do what the want. Now the question is, who is paying for the maintenance necessary on the "common" property. I think in Florida the state would assign something like a trustee and they take over from there, until the HOA is capable incorporating and forming a board again. But I might be wrong.

Cheers
Karl

Cheers
Karl
KarlA1 (Florida)
Posts: 84
Posted:
I live in an HOA in Florida and we must have liability as far as I know.

I think your bigger problem is that your HOA is disolved. At this point the home owners can chose not to join the HOA anymore and then they can pretty much do what the want. Now the question is, who is paying for the maintenance necessary on the "common" property. I think in Florida the state would assign something like a trustee and they take over from there, until the HOA is capable incorporating and forming a board again. But I might be wrong.

Cheers
Karl

Cheers
Karl
KarlA1 (Florida)
Posts: 84
Posted:
Sorry, didn't mean to post 3 times, my bad.

Cheers
Karl
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
I think you have bigger problems than an insurance policy.

Who owns the 27 unbuilt lots? Who holds the deed to the 320 acres of common property? Are your roads deeded to anyone or are they common-law easements over the various parcels? You and the other 4 residents are a minority and cannot do much without the cooperation of the rest of the property owners. Unless, of course, you are willing to go to court and have the CC&R's reformed or declared void.

If you were to form a new association, one of the issues to deal with is the 320 acres of community property. If it is deeded to a dissolved HOA you will play hell acquiring title to it without a court order. I would also be concerned that some developer may try to gain title to it and convert it to a nuclear waste dumping ground or some other use.

DaveE1 (Colorado)
Posts: 33
Posted:
I know that the other property owners may not want to join a re-activated HOA. Our covenants say that if 2/3's of the owners want to revamp the HOA, we can. So, at this point, we're just querying the owners to see if there is mutual interest?
There is no maintenance being done on our community property at all. The 5 miles of gravel roads are being graded as best I can by yours truly, out of my own pocket.
The question of insurance was raised by a property owner, so that's why I'm addressing here, for starters.
DaveE1 (Colorado)
Posts: 33
Posted:
I know that the other property owners may not want to join a re-activated HOA. Our covenants say that if 2/3's of the owners want to revamp the HOA, we can. So, at this point, we're just querying the owners to see if there is mutual interest?
There is no maintenance being done on our community property at all. The 5 miles of gravel roads are being graded as best I can by yours truly, out of my own pocket.
The question of insurance was raised by a property owner, so that's why I'm addressing here, for starters.
DaveE1 (Colorado)
Posts: 33
Posted:
There are 32 lots here, with a few owners having more than one, so we have 23 owners in all.
The 320 acres of community property is listed in the County records as being owned by the long defunct development corporation. The County officials tell me that the zero taxes being charged on this land, is being compensated for by having each lot owner assessed for it. The roads aren't deeded to anyone, but are on a plat map of our development. At present, we're just in the process of querying the owners to see if they want an association, and an owner brought up the question on the cost of insurance.
As for the developer fears you mention, I am concerned. He had the covenants wrote to favor his interests, and was sly about retaining controls until he sells off all the lots, which he retained one... Currently though, he's walked away from us 10 years ago. I mailed him a certified letter, and after two delivery attempts it was returned. So, either he was gone, or refused it.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
I can answer a part of your concerns: the roads.

It sounds like your roads are easements. I have a similar situation here in Arizona. In rural areas it is common to create roads by means of easements as local government usually has no interest in maintaining what are essentially very long driveways.

A recent Arizona Court of Appeals ruling holds that all persons who use an easement have a legal obligation to contribute to its maintenance. This obligation exists whether there is a foraml association or not. (See Freeman v. Sorchych for full text.)

Since you are maintaining the road at your own expense you could move things along by sending a bill for each owner's share. That would get their attention.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Dave,

To answer your initial question on liability insurance. If there is no Active Association and an accident happens on that road and it's determined that there is partial responsibility due to improper maintenance, then each property owner can be sued for contributory negligence.

Just because the Corporation known as your HOA is administratively dissolved doesn't mean that someone can't revive it or create a new Association. The requirement to be a member of the Association would be based on your deed restrictions and nothing else. I would strongly suggest that your group of owners get together, talk to an attorney and petition the court for control of the Association. Otherwise, it's possible whoever buys the undeveloped lots will revive the Association and none of you will have any say or control because they will have the majority vote.

Tim
DaveE1 (Colorado)
Posts: 33
Posted:
Your response seems very well informed regarding the easements for development roads. I'm just not sure that is applicable in our development however. When I read your response, I began to think about where our collective property corner markers are. All of our property corners are surveyed, with a peg in the ground. Then, they drove a fence post next to the survey marker, and slid a PVC pipe over that, so you can clearly see everyone's property boundaries from afar. In thinking about this, most but not all, properties don't cross over the roads, but parallel the roads in most places. So, this is our situation. Your assessment may be the usual way this matter is addressed though.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveE1 on 11/24/2011 6:51 AM
Your response seems very well informed regarding the easements for development roads. I'm just not sure that is applicable in our development however. When I read your response, I began to think about where our collective property corner markers are. All of our property corners are surveyed, with a peg in the ground. Then, they drove a fence post next to the survey marker, and slid a PVC pipe over that, so you can clearly see everyone's property boundaries from afar. In thinking about this, most but not all, properties don't cross over the roads, but parallel the roads in most places. So, this is our situation. Your assessment may be the usual way this matter is addressed though.

The best way of determining who owns the roads is to view the plat. In our development the road easements lie on either side of the property lines and corner markers tend to be on one side of the road or the other. In some places, there was an existing county road that formed the property lines. For those lots, the plat shows a property line down the center of the road. Since it would not be advisable to set a marker in the road, the surveyors set the kind of markers you described next to the road. The plat shows the exact distance from the roadside marker to the actual corner of the property.

It is also possible that the road lies between the property lines. This would raise the question as to who owns the road. If your county records are not viewable online you will need to go to the recorder's office and start looking at maps and deeds.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Dave:

active or not if your HOA owns property the prudent thing to do would be to maintain liability insurance. As Tim mentioned if an accident happens and you don't have insurance each and every homeowner could be sued and have to pay.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BradP on 11/25/2011 9:00 AM
Dave:

active or not if your HOA owns property the prudent thing to do would be to maintain liability insurance. As Tim mentioned if an accident happens and you don't have insurance each and every homeowner could be sued and have to pay.

Check your state laws. In Arizona, for example, members of an association cannot be held liable for its debts.

Insurance policies are a double-edged sword. They protect the policy holder from liability but draw hungry lawyers looking for the big score.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Larry,

The question from Dave was about liability if there was no HOA.

Do you have the statute concerning the statement about members not being responsible for the Association debts? I ask because typically, an HOA's income is only from assessments. The members ultimately pay the debts. Granted, a debtor who wins a judgement against an HOA might not be able to go after a members home, it might be possible for the debtor to get a court order to garnish the Associations Reserve account which would have to be made up by the membership.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 11/25/2011 12:44 PM
Posted By BradP on 11/25/2011 9:00 AM
Dave:

active or not if your HOA owns property the prudent thing to do would be to maintain liability insurance. As Tim mentioned if an accident happens and you don't have insurance each and every homeowner could be sued and have to pay.


Check your state laws. In Arizona, for example, members of an association cannot be held liable for its debts.

Insurance policies are a double-edged sword. They protect the policy holder from liability but draw hungry lawyers looking for the big score.

that may be true, but if someone gets hurt on HOA land does Arizona state law prohibit them from suing homeowners (stakeholders) for damages? Hungry lawyers love multi party lawsuits, greater chance at a big score

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