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VaH (Washington)
Posts: 4
Posted:
BruceF1/CT - you wrote (to TerryJ1/MD)
Does your bylaws specify the size of the board? Also, does your bylaws identify the officers and their duties? Typically, these are only the president, vice president, secretary and treasurer. Does your bylaws permit the board to create other officer positions beyond these four?

If your HOA is typical, I'm guessing your bylaws fix the size of the board at 5 or 7 members, with only four officers. The other two "offices" you identified sound to me like committee chairs. How are they elected? If they are not really board members, they do not count for a quorum, and have no vote at board meetings.
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QUESTION - We have a different situation, 10 owners...our bylaws say we "shall" have 5 members. I understand from this board that SHALL = MUST

At our Annaul HOA meeting, the Pres. had (previously) met with the attorney, somehow or other they came up with getting 2 more people on the Board with what they are referring to as "At will" "At Large" "in name only".......these new people insisted that they wanted no responsibilities...but it seems that our hands are sort of "tied" here if our bylaws say we must have 5, right? THese new people to the Board would not take any titles, Our President, is also our Treasurer. We had a VP and I was the secretary.......for the past year we HAD been operating with the 3 of us but then the Pres went and had this meeting with the attorney (didn't notify either of the other 2 Board members, and yes, we had an agreement about this and yes, I can back it up with the other board member) the atty insisted that we must be in compliance...ok, I can deal with that....however,

I took the whole thing, and so did the VP....to mean just what was said at the meeting...that this was being done to appease our laws.....but the very next day the President was sending a host of held items that needed to be voted on.

THe emails started ...only NOW, they were cloaked. BY this I mean that our Board HAD been operating in an "open-fashion"...we were able to see what each other was saying and doing a "reply all"....suddenly with these new people, some new people decided that they didn't want to operate in an open fashion and wanted to 'shun' others and began emailing the president privately. WHen I saw this, I called the president on it. I was told too bad, this is the way it is. Next thing was whatever we were voting on...the president was tallying the responses, writing the answers in her own hand and telling us what outcome was.

Is this how Boards operate?

if we all "trust" the president I suppose this might be ok somehwere/someplace...but it just doesn't seem appropriate and certainly not "open" and it definitely did not feel RIGHT. Like I said I called the president on it, and THEN I called the HOA attorney.

THis entire incident of members "voted on(to the Board), who would not take positions,was at the request of the president and our HOA attorney, and them not having any responsibilities other than VOTING rights seemed insane to me. When I went and read items online referring to "at will" "at large" "in name only"....everything I read, said -No Voting powers - ...I pointed this out and again was told I am completely wrong.....

is there anything any place that details this out? Roberts Rules....something? When I emailed the President about it, she was quite gruff and said they get to vote, period.

When you have board members shunning other Board members....well, it sets the entire HOA Board up for a complete disaster (my opinion). It is THIS that I felt was so wrong and so I contacted the attorney...this is "THE" incident, from my post the other day, that is causing the attorney fee to be put on my personal bill....the attorney told me, that the president can do, pretty much, whatever she wants????

Had I known any of this I would not have re-run for the position I held. It just felt so wrong and was so nasty that ended up quitting the Board because not only was this going on but the fact that the Pres. didn't have Board permission to, as she said ....I just asked him questions as they popped into my head.....she had permission to ask about Items 1,2,3 that we, as a Board had been discussing for the year and needed answers to.......next thing I know, things are coming out at the HOA where she is telling us that she asked the HOA attorney if people who are in arrears can even serve on the Board??????? I am one of the people that this answer would affect. But! I pay my dues EACH and every month along with penalties/interest and the association earns an extra couple hundred dollars per year....but she stated at the Annual meeting that, she personall feels, that the Board must set an example so she'd prefer anyone who can't get their dues in by the 1st ...apparently...to not be on the Board.

So...I am asking again....if the President can go "off course" and incur bills for an on behalf os the association and as she is the Treasurer and submitted the bill for payment to the CPA........why can the President go off course and discuss items off the topic list, so to speak....

Yet...when I call the HOA Attorney and inquire "are the actions of the president legal" and we talk about nothing other than HER....how can the Board VOTE to put this on my personal tab.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
VaH,

First, note that I am not familiar with Washington HOA or corporate laws, or what effect they have, if any, on your HOA. State laws vary from nearly non-existent to rather stringent.

Second, I am not familiar with your CCRs or your bylaws. To provide an opinion on their interpretation, I would have to read them in their entirety because the various sections and paragraphs are often intertwined.

I will try to address your concerns and questions. Keep in mind that this is my opinion only. Nothing I state should be interpreted as legal advice.

Board Size:

Five board members for only ten homeowners seems excessive. I believe a board of only three members would be more reasonable. But, since your bylaws require a 5-member board, that's what you must have. To change the requirement to three would require a change to the bylaws.

That said, my personal preference for a board size is 5 to 7 members. I believe more than 7 members results in a cumbersome, unwieldy, and sometimes ineffective board. The problem I have with a 3-member board is that there is no difference between a simple majority and a 2/3 super majority as required by some actions. Thus, the protection afforded by a 2/3 super majority is lost.

Officers and Titles:

In what I believe is the typical situation, the bylaws define four officers: President, Vice President, Secretary and Treasurer. Typically these are chosen from among the board members. Many bylaws do not require that the officers be four separate individuals. Many bylaws permit one person to hold two offices simultaneously, except for certain exceptions. Some bylaws (like ours) permit the office of vice president to be vacant. Thus, although your bylaws require five people to serve on the board, it could be possible that your bylaws require only 2 or 3 individuals to be officers.

Titles such as "at large", "at will", or "in name only" are officially meaningless unless those titles are defined in your bylaws. They are often used to refer to a board member who does not hold any position as an officer (although I'm not sure what "in name only" is supposed to mean). More than likely some members were willing to serve on the board (or better, be named to be on the board) as long as they didn't have to do anything (be an officer), so they were identified by using one of those titles to convey that fact.

Voting:

Your board is a board of DIRECTORS. Only DIRECTORS have the right to vote, and every person who is a DIRECTOR has the right to one vote on the board. It doesn't matter how the directors got to be on the board, whether they were elected by the members or appointed by the board (to fill vacancies) as long as it was done in accordance with your bylaws. Each director has the right to vote.

Officers do not have a vote on the board. If a person serves in two roles, as an officer and as a director, that person votes as a director; not as an officer. As our HOA attorney told us, that person wears two hats.
Thus, if you have two individuals on your board who are not officers, and if they were properly elected/appointed to the board, they are directors and are entitled to vote. I don't know where you read that people designated as board members "at large" or some other title cannot vote, but that's not necessarily true. As long as they are directors in accordance with your bylaws, they can vote, no matter what you choose to call them.

Is it possible that the two board members that are not officers could never attend board meetings and never vote? Sure, it might be, again depending on your bylaws. If you have two people who were willing to serve "in name only" so that the bylaw requirement of having a 5-member board could be met, and they choose to never show up for board meetings, the bylaws may allow for business to go on. If the bylaws state that a majority of the board members constitute a quorum for board meetings, and if only the three board members who are also officers are the only ones who show up, they can conduct business. If the bylaws require that motions can be passed by a majority of those present (2 out of the 3 that show up), everything is nice and tidy. Only if your bylaws require that a majority of the directors is required for a motion to pass is there a problem. Although, if every vote at a board meeting at which only 3 members present is unanimous, the problem is solved.

President:

The president can do whatever she wants? Not so, unless the board allows it. President does not equal dictator or "boss". The president has no authority other than what is delegated to the president in the bylaws and by the board. In fact, ALL officers are elected/appointed by the board and serve at the pleasure of the board. All officers, including the president, take direction from the board; not the other way around. Consider the titles of the officers as job titles, and the duties and responsibilities spelled out in the bylaws as job descriptions.

Attorney Contact:

At our very first annual meeting, where we were to elect our first all-homeowner board to follow through with transition from the developer, the HOA attorney reminded everyone that he was the association's attorney and not the attorney for the individual homeowners or board members. He warned everyone not to call him with questions or they would likely be billed for his services.

Typically, the president (and sometimes the property manager, if there is a management company) is designated as the point of contact for the association's attorney. Others who contact the association's attorney without prior authorization from the board run the risk of being individually billed for the attorney's services.

After about three months with our new board, we noticed that the budget for legal expenses was being eaten up rapidly. Upon looking into it, we discovered that every time the board posed a question concerning transition, either the president or the property manager would take it upon themselves to phone the attorney and ask the question. Ca-ching! The association was billed for the attorney's time to answer the question. As a result, the board directed the president and the property manager not to call the attorney with questions unless the board authorized the question to be asked beforehand.

Simply put, if you called the attorney without prior authorization from the board, the bill is likely yours.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
VaH - unless your documents permit, you can not conduct board business over email.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
VaH - unless your documents permit, you can not conduct board business over email.

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