Fine appeals committee

Started by StewartG1 • 9 replies • 2220 views

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StewartG1 (Florida)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Its me again sorry!
having taken over from a board that seems to have made its own rules to satisfy any situation at any time,our new board of which I am president is determined to follow the rules,however it is extremely difficult to do so when Statutes in Florida appear to not be thought through,this is our latest dilemna which I really need a clear resolution to.

Homeowner who is totally anti HOA has a tenant who has built a trash enclosure,whilst building the trash enclosure our ARC director was passing and said thats fine but yoiu have not applied to the ARC committee for permission,you need to do so,and so does the Home owner,the tenant continued to build the enclosure,used vinyl panels with wooden posts,we received the tenants application but not the homeowners,the ARC committee informed the tenant and the owner that the use of materials was not acceptable,it needed to be all wood or all vinyl,I as president then received several insulting (personal) e.mails basically saying they would paint the posts but nothing else was acceptable to the owner,I insisted that this was not acceptable but offered a time period for them to right the wrong,in short they have not complied,consequently the violations committee are fining them $50 per week,Here is the kicker!!!! Now the owner wants to take advantage of the new Florida statute that allows her to appeal the fine,I have no confidence that the 3 person committee will enforce the fine,so what do we do next?There is no doubt our rules have been broken,the owner admits that,but if the fines appeal committee does not enforce the fine we are stuffed,apart from the fact the homeowner has beaten the system,we have no way of getting rid of the offending structure and a prescedent has been set throughout the sub dividion.

See what I mean about poorly thought out statutes?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Stewart,

I do feel for you. Our Association went through similar issues caused by the Association offering verbal approvals.

You probably know that the first mistake was made by the ARC chair who basically gave verbal approval "ARC director was passing and said thats fine ". They should have said that the project needs to stop until the application is submitted and approved.

It's possible that the ARC Director didn't know all the specifics (material, etc.) when they gave the verbal approval (or they expected that certain materials would be used and didn't ask).

The problem is, the member/tenant received verbal approval from the Association. It's highly possible that the Association will have to live with that approval if the member challenges it.

As for the fines, the Association must comply with the law. If the fining committee waives the fines - so be it. Just make sure that the process for the appeal is properly followed.

Use this issue as a learning curve and take actions to prevent the issue from happening in the future. For one, I would suggest that you make it very clear that there are to be zero verbal approvals in the future.

StewartG1 (Florida)
Posts: 15

Posted:

But Tim we have a 3 man committe to approve this,no application was made,surely a comment saying thats fine cannot be construed as approval can it?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

The member who said it was fine, according to your posting, was the ARC Director and therefore, the expected voice for the committee (just like you being the president is perceived as the voice for the Board).

Just as if you told a contractor to go ahead and do a job on your own, the ARC Director said that the modification was fine to do. Neither the contractor nor the tenant/member would have no reason to expect that you were not speaking for the Association.

I think the Association will have to live with the verbal approval (just like the Association would have to pay for the work performed by the contractor in my example).

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

It's the ARC Director who overstepped their authority by giving the verbal approval prior to waiting for the written request and a vote by the committee.

PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

Stewart,

Just a couple of questions.

1. Do your docs describe specifications and appearance for building such structures? (see section 720.3035 Architectural control covenants; parcel owner improvements; rights and privileges.)

2. Has your ‘fining committee’ followed this provision?

'b) A fine or suspension may not be imposed without at least 14 days’ notice to the person sought to be fined or suspended and an opportunity for a hearing before a committee of at least three members appointed by the board who are not officers, directors, or employees of the association, or the spouse, parent, child, brother, or sister of an officer, director, or employee. If the committee, by majority vote, does not approve a proposed fine or suspension, it may not be imposed. If the association imposes a fine or suspension, the association must provide written notice of such fine or suspension by mail or hand delivery to the parcel owner and, if applicable, to any tenant, licensee, or invitee of the parcel owner.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Stewart,

Let me try and present it this way (which might make it clearer):

Member submits plans for a structure to ARC.
ARC fails to look closely at the plans but gives an approval.
Member builds the structure according to the plans.
ARC sees the finished structure and doesn't like something about it (materials used, paint, etc.)
ARC now tells member to tear it down and built it differently.

Who is at fault?
Obviously, it's the ARC who failed to look at the plans prior to giving the approval.

That is how I see your issue.

Member/tenant starts to build a structure without approval.
ARC walks by and says the structure is ok to build but make sure to submit the plans
Member finishes building the structure based on ARC approval
Member submits plans
ARC doesn't like plans and tells member to tear it down and built it differently.

Who is at fault?
Initially the member was for not submitting a plan.
The ARC also was for saying that they could continue building it before plans were submitted.

An argument could be made that the ARC verbal approval negated the members fault for not initially submitting plans.

What should have happened:

Member/tenant starts to build a structure without approval.
ARC walks by and says building must stop and plans be submitted for approval
Plans are submitted
ARC reviews plans and approves or denies.

Again, take it as a lesson learned. Put procedures in place so it the issue isn't repeated. Then move on.

StewartG1 (Florida)
Posts: 15

Posted:

We follow the new statute to letter of the law and put it clearly on both the violations letter and the fines letter,our rules for ARC are

No fence or fence wall shall be constructed, erected or maintained on or around any portion of any building Lot that is in front of the front setback line of the dwelling. Any fence or wall must, in the sole discretion of the Architectural Review Committee, be completely and aesthetically acceptable in design, materials and construction.

PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

I have no confidence that the 3 person committee will enforce the fine,so what do we do next? (Stewart)

Stewart,

If the committee had a hearing with the guilty guy and voted ‘no fine’ there is nothing you can do. Otherwise, I think the committee submits their recommendation to the Board and the Board enforces the fine but am not 100% sure. Need to read the docs. What do you think?

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By StewartG1 on 10/20/2011 5:51 AM
Its me again sorry!
having taken over from a board that seems to have made its own rules to satisfy any situation at any time,our new board of which I am president is determined to follow the rules,however it is extremely difficult to do so when Statutes in Florida appear to not be thought through,this is our latest dilemna which I really need a clear resolution to.

Homeowner who is totally anti HOA has a tenant who has built a trash enclosure,whilst building the trash enclosure our ARC director was passing and said thats fine but yoiu have not applied to the ARC committee for permission,you need to do so,and so does the Home owner,the tenant continued to build the enclosure,used vinyl panels with wooden posts,we received the tenants application but not the homeowners,the ARC committee informed the tenant and the owner that the use of materials was not acceptable,it needed to be all wood or all vinyl,I as president then received several insulting (personal) e.mails basically saying they would paint the posts but nothing else was acceptable to the owner,I insisted that this was not acceptable but offered a time period for them to right the wrong,in short they have not complied,consequently the violations committee are fining them $50 per week,Here is the kicker!!!! Now the owner wants to take advantage of the new Florida statute that allows her to appeal the fine,I have no confidence that the 3 person committee will enforce the fine,so what do we do next?There is no doubt our rules have been broken,the owner admits that,but if the fines appeal committee does not enforce the fine we are stuffed,apart from the fact the homeowner has beaten the system,we have no way of getting rid of the offending structure and a prescedent has been set throughout the sub dividion.

See what I mean about poorly thought out statutes?

My God! Don't you people have something more serious to occupy your minds? Who really gives a damn whether the trash enclosure is all wood or all vinyl? Your kids need to put the whole bunch of you in a nursing home!

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